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Frugal Computing (2021)

102 pointsby Seirdyabout 3 years ago

22 comments

phtrivierabout 3 years ago
&gt; To address these challenges, action is needed on many fronts. What will you do to make frugal computing a reality?<p>Frustrating that the authors ends with such an &quot;open note&quot;, without any practical &quot;first steps&quot;. (This [1] at least _tries_ to give some options, as arguable as they are.)<p>There are obvious contenders:<p>* keep your phone longer. Brag about it. Find a persuasive way to _demand_ that apps, updates, etc... keep working. I don&#x27;t know what difference 5 years vs 3 years do, though.<p>* make fun of people who change their phone all the time. (Or for that matter, make fun of consumerism _in general_.) Assuming peer pressure stands a chance against advertising industry.<p>* write efficient software ? (The joke is that anything that can be rewritten in Rust will be rewritten in Rust; but the jury is still out on whether the energy saved _running_ Rust code will offset the energy consumed _compiling_ it.)<p>* write no software ? (especially if you&#x27;re in the cat picture and fake news sharing business ?)<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;worrydream.com&#x2F;ClimateChange&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;worrydream.com&#x2F;ClimateChange&#x2F;</a>
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zokierabout 3 years ago
&gt; As a society we need to start treating computational resources as finite and precious, to be utilised only when necessary, and as effectively as possible.<p>Considering that on AWS potentially every millisecond of compute time and every database write is billed separately, I think the financial incentives are already there to consider computational resources precious.<p>&gt; Extending the life time is also the key action for datacentres<p>Currently e.g. AWS still is actively selling m4 type ec2 instances, which were introduced in 2015 and use Haswell generation CPUs from 2013. Heck, they seem to be even selling the ancient m1 type instances through their &quot;previous generation instance&quot; program[1].<p>I think it is safe to assume that hyperscalers are squeezing every bit of use they can from old hardware. Afaik their main motivation for new hardware is to optimize energy efficiency, so that sounds exactly what the article wants.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;aws.amazon.com&#x2F;ec2&#x2F;previous-generation&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;aws.amazon.com&#x2F;ec2&#x2F;previous-generation&#x2F;</a>
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WesolyKubeczekabout 3 years ago
The incentives are still there for churning out more and more code, compile it on more and more CI&#x2F;CD pipelines, run it on clusters of more and more powerful machines, and interface it to more and more powerful computers in our pockets which have gigabytes of RAM, terabytes of storage, mad gigahertz multi-core CPUs but somehow still amount to being slow dumb terminals.<p>Damn, even open source world favors constant churn. New libraries come with breakage that demands every application out there to adapt with little to no reward, those applications aren’t becoming any better, they just keep chasing new languages, new frameworks, new windowing systems, re-solve problems solved long ago, and all of it is just to keep up.<p>Gosh, there was this comparison on how long would it take to cold boot a machine, open a document in a text processor, and print it out. The contenders were a 8-bit Commodore with floppies and a modern MacBook Pro. Guess what, while Mac won, it wasn’t by a wide margin at all. The Mac could likely easily emulate a dozen Commodores. Where are all the gains?<p>If I were to become a dictator of a large part of the world, I’d tax heavily all the extra cycles, all extra watts of power wasted, all extra RAM, and all excess bytes sent over the wire, and tax it enough to eat into profits of big tech. Incentives done right would make the developers think of efficiency from day one.<p>There’s also this thing that while we rely on tech more and more, we are just as far from actually automating the boring stuff away as we have been for the last 40 years. The stories about a plucky worker automating their job and not telling anyone are just as appealing today as they were two decades ago. And all this tech has bugs, is fragile, sucks big time and brings in a lot of frustration.<p>(Steps away from the soapbox and walks into the sunset.)
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hamilyon2about 3 years ago
This is fascinating. We are barely keeping up with demand for computing with all those inefficient languages, architecture and difficulties of scale we face now. We waste cycles, bandwidth, memory and still do not have enough developer time to build or simply keep up with demand.<p>Just imagine how much more work is to be done when we face additional constraints of reuse of old devices, conserving energy, and device utilisation.<p>Additionally, as we slow down development of software to accommodate new constraints or simply cut usage of compute, we delay&#x2F;hinder deployment of software which can help save our biosphere elsewhere. Or lift people from poverty. So this might not be justified after all.<p>This is complicated, we must work harder and save the planet. One thing is 8K tvs and datacenters to stream content, other is socially and environmentally important compute.
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thesuperbigfrogabout 3 years ago
Chuck Moore (creator of Forth [1] ) has a ultra-low power processor that is a fascinating possible solution:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;m.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=0PclgBd6_Zs" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;m.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=0PclgBd6_Zs</a><p>[1] Forth programming language: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Forth_(programming_language)" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Forth_(programming_language)</a>
Veedracabout 3 years ago
Abstinence-only climate education is such a depressing notion. There is plenty of clean energy. It is not running out. The idea that we should impoverish ourselves to protect against a problem we can solve without impoverishing ourselves is unjustifiably self-destructive.
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winkabout 3 years ago
&gt; To address these challenges, action is needed on many fronts. What will you do to make frugal computing a reality?<p>I dunno, isn&#x27;t this the same thing as blaming climate change on the people who take a single vacation by plane per year, no matter what else they&#x27;re doing the other 51 weeks to try to live a non-wasteful life?<p>I like my home server and having my data here, on LAN speed. Of course that&#x27;s probably not the ideal thing from a power usage perspective. Does it offset the fact that I am hardly using a car? Am I allowed to use up the old lightbulbs I still have or is it really better to go out and buy LEDs for everything? Should I replace my hardware all the time because it uses less power or keep the old stuff that is just fine? What can I do if the damn phone manufacturers won&#x27;t ship updated after 2 years when I&#x27;d gladly use it for 4 years? Must I buy Apple now?<p>Sure, everyone has their own &#x27;I will not give in&#x27; topics, but more and more I am getting disillusioned that I personally can make any impact.
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mro_nameabout 3 years ago
I find &#x27;frugal&#x27; align very well with &#x27;convival&#x27;. It stresses the relation of creator and tool and demands the tool to serve and not dominate or hide the task at hand but foster freedom and happiness.<p>Also of interest: Permacomputing <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=27199225" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=27199225</a>
nonrandomstringabout 3 years ago
This subject is very high in my interest and activity recently. I am trying to find more good models, data sources, so do please add anything of quality. Vanderbauwhede&#x27;s is a good account of device composition, but as you can see it&#x27;s a hugely more complex set of inter-linked issues,<p>Here are some pop&#x2F;accessible articles I wrote last year:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;techrights.org&#x2F;2022&#x2F;01&#x2F;02&#x2F;article-on-digital-rights-in-2021-part-9&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;techrights.org&#x2F;2022&#x2F;01&#x2F;02&#x2F;article-on-digital-rights-i...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cheapskatesguide.org&#x2F;articles&#x2F;techno-clutter-farnell.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cheapskatesguide.org&#x2F;articles&#x2F;techno-clutter-farnell...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cheapskatesguide.org&#x2F;articles&#x2F;uncharitable.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cheapskatesguide.org&#x2F;articles&#x2F;uncharitable.html</a><p>See also Gerry McGovern&#x27;s &quot;World Wide Waste 2021&quot; which links to useful papers and sources of analysis<p>Katie Singer&#x27;s article:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ourwebofinconvenienttruths.com&#x2F;letter-3&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ourwebofinconvenienttruths.com&#x2F;letter-3&#x2F;</a><p>This by Alba Ardura Gutiérrez:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cvbj.biz&#x2F;we-eat-fish-contaminated-by-the-electronic-waste-we-send-to-africa.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cvbj.biz&#x2F;we-eat-fish-contaminated-by-the-electronic-...</a>
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vladohabout 3 years ago
One aspect I didn&#x27;t see much discussion on is about tradeoffs. Yes, computing demand is increasing, but does it all have a negative environmental balance?<p>Example - modern cars. They are full of electronics (there are around 80 ECUs in a modern car), but these electronics make the cars safer and lower the fuel consumption. Just look at how much the CO2 output for the same engine power decreased over time. Some of it comes from better mechanics like turbos or filters, but a lot of it comes from better electronics in the engine ECU.<p>Another example - logistics. Delivery companies are able to much better plan demand, routes and inventory thanks to big data processing in data centers. Yes, a data center consumes a lot of energy, but it also helps reduce emissions from trucks driving around less.<p>I don&#x27;t have exact numbers, but I think everybody can imagine how increased computing in some areas (not all) improves the environmental impact. These are things that need to be considered in order to avoid unintended consequences.
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ChrisMarshallNYabout 3 years ago
I’ve found that writing mobile apps (especially native apps) is basically <i>de facto</i> “frugal computing.”<p>Power consumption is a big part of mobile app development.<p>I haven’t had the opportunity to write stuff that really sucks down a power load.<p>I have a pretty cool ML app that really sucks down the battery. It can drain 3% of my battery in about 5mins. The phone gets noticeably hot in my hand. I guess they are using their own ML engine, as opposed to the hardware-assisted stuff in the phone.<p>On the other hand, most games on my phone seem to run cool. I suspect that’s because they leverage Metal.
ojciecczasabout 3 years ago
The internet should operate like a sunflower, servers should follow the sun. Data centers should operate on solar energy, deploying themselves at the sunrise and shutting down at sunset in given location.
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AtlasBarfedabout 3 years ago
Here&#x27;s an idea. A pie in the sky idea!<p>What is SpaceX&#x27;s starship good for? Well, what does space have? Solar power in gobs.<p>A lot of the economic barriers for space based stuff is just moving stuff around and getting it back to earth. Well, for computation you don&#x27;t have to do that. You just beam the answers back.<p>Starlink has the networking substrate already. With the end of exponential churn in hardware, soon orbiting computing can have a longer lifecycle.<p>Starship is targetting 10$&#x2F;kilogram. You can fit a computer in a kg easily. The launch cost will be a fraction of the procurement and other lifetime costs of the computer.<p>I guess cooling is the other issue. I don&#x27;t know much about cooling in space. I know it is REALLY HOT on the sun side, and REALLY COLD on the other, but radiating heat usually involves other molecules touching the hot thing. Maybe you put reflective paint on the computing unit to keep the sun out, and the cold side chills the rest of the computer to near-absolute zero? Again, I am clueless about space heat dissipation.<p>But if you can ALSO get really cold temperatures, you can also overclock the CPUs to run faster and get more compute.
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dgb23about 3 years ago
So this is not just about reducing cycles and network calls, but also about increasing the longevity of software and hardware. From a software point of view this means core quality attributes: performance, security, maintainability.<p>As a web developer I feel we _want_ to focus more on these things, as they are interesting and rewarding, but from a business perspective we typically see them as costly, secondary thresholds that we need to achieve, rather than primary targets.<p>Mechanical sympathy needs time to design, think, learn, measure. Stable, maintainable software needs testing, analysis, refactoring. Again, these are all things pretty much every intrinsically motivated programmer likes to do. But with everything related to resource distribution: People only start to pay for things when the external pressures are already there, or when its too late.
bullenabout 3 years ago
I made the most efficient and scalable HTTP app server with integrated distributed JSON database to replace all serverside software I was depending on:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;tinspin&#x2F;rupy" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;tinspin&#x2F;rupy</a><p>If you want to be able to run production servers on Raspberry 2 &amp; 4 this is today your only real alternative.<p>Now I&#x27;m building a 3D action MMO that runs on the Raspberry 4, good luck getting Unity or Unreal to work on that device!<p>The biggest waste of electricity is AAA gaming, both because it uses alot but also because it creates nothing of value.<p>Follow Minecraft (btw also a waste of energy) modding and Roblox and extrapolate, useful gaming allows you to OWN your work.
giantg2about 3 years ago
I&#x27;d imagine corporations and smartphones are mostly responsible. Phones seem to last only about 3 years. My company has probably upgraded my workstation&#x2F;laptop 5 times in the 10 years I&#x27;ve worked there. I guess a pi and audrino are the newest computers I have. But my newest typical&#x2F;traditional computer is 10 years old, and my personal laptop is 14.
hnthrowaway0315about 3 years ago
I have at least totally given up on high-end personal computing (think your top-notch Alienware computers) and have been living with a 470S that I purchased from the company as X-hand a while ago.<p>I&#x27;ll probably stay frugal on computing power for the rest of my life, unless forced to change.
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julian_sarkabout 3 years ago
Meanwhile, I&#x27;m at the pub while a PC streams a Twitch stream nobody watches.<p>I hate Twitch streams, but Twitch assuming I am watching nets items in a game I play, and that Skinner box is strong.<p>At least I put the streams on extra low quality. But I recon Twitch streams running only for &quot;drops&quot; are about as bad for the climate as Bitcoin.<p>Yay 2022. Yay misguided advertisement or whatever the reason they do silly stuff like this.
hughrrabout 3 years ago
This always interests me. I always push for more efficient use of computing resources but there isn’t any interest in this while it’s cheap
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askhanabout 3 years ago
Walking the walk, especially the sidebar menu.
hasaabout 3 years ago
No one has yet mentioned bitcoin?
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askhanabout 3 years ago
Walking the walk, especially the site menu.