I hate ties and collared shirts in general. Any wedding or other formal event where I have to wear a suit, I'm constantly tugging at my neck and ripping off my tie within 5 seconds of getting back in my car to drive home after the event. I have no idea why Steve Jobs wore his ubiquitous turtleneck, but I'd like to think the fact that it was a lot more comfortable than a shirt and tie was one of the reasons.<p>Also if I'm at any sort of business or social event and someone is comes up to me and says something like: "Hey bro, I've been sitting on this great idea for a startup that I came with when I got my MBA at Oswego College, and I need a cofounder. Here, sign this NDA and I can tell you about it. Okay fine, don't sign the NDA, bro. It's called 'Fratastic.com,' it's like frat-oriented humor videos. It's gonna totally be the next youtube, it's ridiculous how much money it's gonna make, bro. I have the domain name and everything, I just need someone to actually do all the coding and I'll do the marketing, bro. How does 4% equity sound to you?"<p>... well, that person is almost always wearing a shirt, coat, and tie.<p>So why would I want to dress up beyond a t-shirt and jeans? It makes me uncomfortable, it has nothing to do with my production, technical or otherwise, and I'm less likely to be associated with the expensively educated clueless douchebag I described above.<p>Also, I know a lot of hackers who do go to the gym or otherwise keep active and look just fine in a t-shirt.
"my talent supersedes my necessity to follow the guidelines of society" is a fairly mindless observation.<p>90% of the "guidelines of society" is cargo cult thinking. The best developers are wired to avoid this kind of thinking. With respect to clothing, they optimize for comfort and individuality rather than looks. There's no big political statement going on here (and I'd argue that dressing casually is a practical choice rather than a sign that one is misinformed, sloppy or lazy).<p>I'm writing code this morning in my pajamas. This evening I'll go out to a mixer and I'll throw on a nice sport coat. Clothes are tools, and you need the right tools for the job. This is why electricians and plumbers don't wear neckties.
There is a signalling mechanism involved in dressing like a slob, every bit as loud as the signal you are trying to send out by dressing well.<p>In some contexts, putting on "whatever" sends the signal that I'm a slob, in other contexts it sends the signal that I have better / more important things to think about. In some contexts, dressing well sends out the signal that you are conscientious and trust-worthy, in other contexts it sends the signal that you are a vapid tool.<p>Your job is to tailor your message for the audience you are trying to reach.
From Tom Ford's five lessons:<p>> You should put on the best version of yourself when you go out in the world because that is a show of respect to the other people around you.<p>I try to dress well (note that there is a difference between dressing well and dressing formally) because I want to show respect to those around me. I find poorly dressed people almost as off-putting as catching a scent of someone who didn't put deodorant on seeing too much of someone who doesn't have the decency to wear a belt. Again, it's not about level of formality: someone wearing an ill-fitting suit isn't dressed as well as someone wearing properly fitting jeans and a polo.<p>Developers value elegant code as an indication of programming skill, so why not value elegant dress as an indication of interpersonal skills? (The answer is that a lot of developers don't value interpersonal skills at all).<p>"Why This Matters" from Jesse at Put This On is a good read: <a href="http://putthison.com/post/665640307/why-this-matters" rel="nofollow">http://putthison.com/post/665640307/why-this-matters</a>
Relevant snipper from <i>Cryptonomicon</i>:<p>It is trite to observe that hackers don’t like fancy clothes. Avi has learned that good clothes can actually be comfortable—the slacks that go with a business suit, for example, are really much more comfortable than blue jeans. And he has spent enough time with hackers to obtain the insight that is it not wearing suits that they object to, so much as getting them on. Which includes not only the donning process per se but also picking them out, maintaining them, and worrying whether they are still in style—this last being especially difficult for men who wear suits once every five years.
I once had lunch with PG after having come back from a VC meeting. I had just moved to California then and was wearing business attire. PG stopped mid-sentence to ask me if I had on french cuffs and then told me how investors like startup guys to be scrappy haha.<p>And from a PG essay <a href="http://www.paulgraham.com/bubble.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.paulgraham.com/bubble.html</a><p>"And what would be wrong would be that how one presented oneself counted more than the quality of one's ideas. That's the problem with formality. Dressing up is not so much bad in itself. The problem is the receptor it binds to: dressing up is inevitably a substitute for good ideas. It is no coincidence that technically inept business types are known as "suits."
Dressing better is not necessarily dressing up.<p>Dress for the situation but wear high quality clothes with the right fit. Just because its business attire doesn't mean its good clothing or that you're dressed well. Stand outside the local courthouse at lunch time and watch all the dumpy ill-fitting suits pour out and you'll see what I mean.<p>Fit and Quality are far more important than type of clothing.
For myself, I due to an accident I had when a tutor / counsellor (door knob caught on the neck strap with id and sent me to the floor - lots of blood), I don't like wearing things around my neck including ties. I'm ok with slacks but not in the winter here because that's jeans weather and you never know when you might need to help someone out. Polos are ok and I mostly wear them instead of t-shirts.<p>I also grew up in an area where wearing a suit indicated that you were probably here to take money, land, or rights away. Suits were really the first sign not to trust that person. This belief is very hard to shake (along with the thought that anyone calling a noon meeting without providing food is sending a clear insulting message).<p>I hated my time in places that required a suit and tie and believe that culture is corrupting ( <a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3015969" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3015969</a> ).
It's not about respect. It's about taste.<p>Ira Glass was once asked about how he became a great radio host [1]. His response was that he continued to work on his craft even when he knew it was terrible. Knowing your work is terrible is crucial because it means that you have taste - you know what needs to be done, and you know what would fulfill it, even if you don't have the ability to execute it.<p>Style is about taste. And note, style is not equivalent to 'dressing up'. Style is knowing what pieces go together to create an aesthetically pleasing form. Style is knowing your body type, your personality, and your needs and putting together outfits that compliment and combine those strengths.<p>When developers get made fun of for not dressing up, it's not because you're wearing a t-shirt and jeans. It's because you've put no thought into which t-shirt with what jeans. There's no thought about how the pieces fit together. There's no taste.<p>Taste is critical for us because it's what makes or breaks a product. What makes Apple great? Taste. What let Instagram beat out the plethora of other photo apps? Taste. What allowed Facebook to take over MySpace? Taste. Taste is what will give me confidence that when you are on my team, you will do exactly what is necessary to make us win.<p>Taste is imperative. Take every chance to show that you have it.<p>[1] <a href="http://kottke.org/11/04/your-taste-is-why-your-own-work-disappoints-you" rel="nofollow">http://kottke.org/11/04/your-taste-is-why-your-own-work-disa...</a>
I think dressing up is fun. I love fashion, but I hate this sentiment:<p><i>"Unless you’re going to the gym twice per week, you probably won’t look good in a T-shirt."</i><p>Fuck that. We live in a society that is constantly telling us we look bad, unless we are skinny, unless we have "good" hair, unless we have clear, light-colored skin...<p>Fuck that. People are fucking beautiful. All kinds of people are fucking beautiful, even if they're wearing a t-shirt.<p>It's one thing to encourage people to take pride in their clothes. It's another to call them ugly, and feed into our culture's (literally) deadly skinny-worshipping obsession.
A programmer from a very large computer company went to a software conference and then returned to report to his manager, saying: ``What sort of programmers work for other companies? They behaved badly and were unconcerned with appearances. Their hair was long and unkempt and their clothes were wrinkled and old. They crashed our hospitality suite and they made rude noises during my presentation.''<p>The manager said: ``I should have never sent you to the conference. Those programmers live beyond the physical world. They consider life absurd, an accidental coincidence. They come and go without knowing limitations. Without a care, they live only for their programs. Why should they bother with social conventions?<p>``They are alive within the Tao.''<p>2.3 - <a href="http://www.canonical.org/~kragen/tao-of-programming.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.canonical.org/~kragen/tao-of-programming.html</a>
I'm glad to see someone else musing on something that I have always wondered about.<p>You don't have a wear a 3-piece suit to be taken seriously. But when you wear faded/ratty jeans and a t-shirt it's hard to be taken seriously. Look at the pictures of the Great Depression: every man on the street waiting in line wore a suit. Not just business shirts, a <i>suit</i>. And these were guys like dock workers, laborers, &c.<p>I think it's because of a counter-cultural movement of preferring ratty, grungy, grimey-looking things. And, lets face it, people do judge you by what they see.<p>I don't want to look like a 20-something guy in ratty pants and a t-shirt with some obscene rockstar; I want to be taken seriously, just like I try to take others (even a weirdo in a t-shirt) seriously.
article is total trollshit, but still:<p>"You are building the future, so dress like it."<p>If we're building the future, we'll build one where we can dress how we like.<p>"Even Zuck has been sporting a suit more and more. He’s the last person that needs to impress someone based on how he dresses."<p>Tell that to his shareholders.<p>"It’s a “my talent supersedes my necessity to follow the guidelines of society.”"<p>If people like you are going to speak the way you do on behalf of society, maybe this society thing isn't for me.
Developer culture is a meritocracy, and if you're putting out good code you can wear whatever the fuck you want.<p>My favorite part of the Zucks mythos is the flip-flops. What he wore didn't matter, because what he and Facebook were doing was so amazing.<p>Most people just happen to want to wear t-shirts, shorts, and flip-flops.
What does "dress better" mean, anyway? Once you start unpacking that phrase, you realize it has very little to do with optimizing functionality. It's not the same as "eat better" or "sleep better".<p>Imagine if someone showed up for a swim race in a suit and tie!
I read your post but I still don't know why I must care about fashion? I try to develop my programming skills, I try to educate myself, I try to be a kind person, I go to gym frequently and I eat well. But the fashion sense is not something I'm interested, I just want to be comfortable.
I checked Put This On and I didn't like the style.
I work at a startup in San Francisco and I'm "that developer who wears a tie every day".<p>The traditional adage is that when you dress for success, people take you more seriously. I'd like to believe that this particular industry is beyond that, which may or may not be true, but the truth is that when you dress up, you take <i>yourself</i> more seriously.<p>The benefit of having everybody at the company know who I am is pretty nice, too.
"You’ve got nothing to lose, save for some “geek cred.”"<p>Maybe you underestimate the importance of feeling like you fit in. Being ostracized from your group is painful and can even lead to being left out of new information, like the up-and-coming programming languages, etc. It can lead to people saying, "He's not a team player" and it actually affecting your job.<p>Another problem is that you've defined 'better' as you see it, and not as your peers see it. You think you're better than them, but you aren't really. It's all an ego trip for you.
Dressing differently is not necessarily dressing worse. Personally, when I see someone that obviously spent an extra 30-60 minutes getting ready in the morning to make themselves appear to be a professional, my first impression isn't "This guy is really professional". Instead, it is "what is this guy trying to hide?", or "does this guy think appearances are more important than results?" You really shouldn't assume you're making a good first impression because you're wearing a tie. It all depends on what the atmosphere of the workplace is.
Why is the assumption that a T-shirt and a hoodie "worse dressed?" There are fricking $500 designer hoodies out there if you want one.<p>Anyway, the entire article is silly. Grownups know that some people will judge them based on how they dress. Sometimes we care, sometimes we don't, and so we dress accordingly. I'm not going to give a presentation to our Senior Business Team dressed in a Linux User Group t-shirt and ragged jeans, but don't expect me in a suit at any other time if I don't have to be.
Dressed UP isn't always the same as dressed NICELY. Programmers like efficient, but that doesn't mean that it can't look good too.<p>I've recently taken an interest in upgrading my wardrobe after a very long time of not caring. Frankly, without the internet I'd be totally lost. I dislike browse-shopping, and still have limited understanding of what makes things look better than others. I've found that the worst things are generally just ill-fitting, and I can't rely on size information (as any woman would tell you). A medium tshirt from one place might fit me perfectly, and look like a giant sack from another place. Same for pants, 30x30 jeans can be loose or too tight depending on the maker, the factory, etc.. Even men's clothing is getting vanity-sized which is frustrating, and makes me want to go back to "Whatever, I'd rather be doing something important!"
Negatively judging someone for dressing poorly is as bad as judging someone for dressing well. For that reason, I can't agree completely with either side of the argument expressed in this thread.<p>With that said, it would be nice to wear a jacket/tie over jeans without feeling overdressed and negatively judged as a "suit" among developers. I agree with the sentiment that developers should wear whatever the fuck they want, but does that not include dressing well?
The "dress for success" mentality is an anachronism, at least in North America.<p>Casual workdays used to be an employer granted privilege, but in this day and age, casual everyday is an entitlement in a lot of companies. The definition of "workplace casual" has become more lax in the past 20 years too.<p>Being middle aged myself, I'm not a fan of the shift towards casual dress every day, but times change, and that's just how it is.
Heh, I think the objection to suits and ties is that they are often no better looking that shorts/t-shirt.<p>I had no style for the first 20 years of my life, regarding it as simply vanity and not worthwhile.<p>Turns out it can be fun to develop your own style. It is a lot more than 'wearing a tie three times a week'. It means moving beyond Dr. Who tees and thinking about colors and lines; and looking in a mirror once in a while.<p>It doesn't take too much time or money, and is great when you get complements from strangers.<p>It is correct that fit is important. I would say the most important. Get rid of the too-large t-shirts and too-short pants.<p>And never ever buy an uncomfortable dress shirt.
Well I was dressed well for YCNYC. But that's because I'm a girl and I enjoy dressing well. So I wore a nice dress and a short sleeved jacket.<p>I felt really confident about what I was wearing until someone told me I looked like I didn't belong there. Now I'm left wondering if this suit stigma applies to females.
Because
a) There are usually negligible amounts of women around<p>b) I sweat in dress shirts which makes me less productive<p>c) I stay seated a lot changing posture constantly, which makes shirts look wrinkled<p>d) My job does not depend on how someone perceives me physically or socially so... Occam's razor.<p>It's not just developers, it happens with many people who work in science. I know a guy in a biology lab who only dresses in suits, and i 've heard his supervisor say that he sometimes can't give him real work to do for the fear of ruining his suit.
If you're wearing a suit at an event where everyone else is wearing t-shirts and other casual dress, then <i>you</i> are the one who is dressed inappropriately. You're communicating that you're either too clueless to understand that, or you that think you're somehow "above" everyone else. (Or, you're Aaron Patterson.)<p>It's just as disrespectful to wear a suit to, say, RailsConf, as it is to wear a t-shirt and wrecked jeans to your sibling's wedding.
Suits aren't the only way to not look like a slob. Here are a few tips on how to dress for a "corporate" job without abandoning your sub-culture: <a href="http://www.waningmoon.com/corpgoth/survival.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.waningmoon.com/corpgoth/survival.shtml</a> and <a href="http://steampunkworkshop.com/corporate-steampunk-fashion" rel="nofollow">http://steampunkworkshop.com/corporate-steampunk-fashion</a>
I'm glad there are other developers out there who have decided that they want to look smart. My usual work attire is: shirt, jumper, smart trousers, and smart shoes while the rest of the team tend to turn up in t-shirts, jeans and trainers.<p>I was asked recently why I always choose to come to work dressed smartly and my answer? "Look smart, think smart"
This reeks of a heavy east coast banker/lawyer mindset. That somehow you have to fit in and play by the rules in order to be a good employee. That if you aren't dressed above business casual you aren't capable or worthwhile enough to be considered. I can't tell you how happy I am to be out of that world.<p>Now, that being said, if you expect to go into a business meeting with a government or enterprise client you had better not roll into the meeting in flip flops and a t-shirt if you expect to win their business. But that is a far cry from having to dress up to some old fashioned standard every day.<p>Basically, there are two worlds when it comes to business. There's the old, entrenched, formalized business world and the new, scrappy, meritocratic startup world and you need to know how to float between them as necessary to be successful.
Style is a celebration of the self. It's another language to learn and master.<p>Dismissing it as nonfunctional or damaging to your well being is the same as ignoring the utility of a new programming language because your old ones get the job done or because using traditional languages is "hardcore."
I can't speak for other people, but I'm a developer and I put very little effort into my wardrobe. This doesn't derive from a conscious decision as much as it is that I simply hate the concept of "dressing up". There is no relationship between how good someone is at technical tasks and their affinity for fine clothing. In actuality, I've only ever observed the opposite.<p>Ultimately, I'm not a peacock, so I have little interest in human plumage.
"I’m a developer and I’ve been attempting to dress better for the last few months."<p>I´m a developer and I´ve been atempting to code better for the last few decades. ( Never got me unemployed/bad employed, by the way )<p>"For a group of people constantly trying for improving development ability, I’m surprised more aren’t trying to develop their dress."<p>Maybe they´re to busy with the kernel to mind the shell. I´m glad inteligence gave some people power to chalenge traditions, prejudices, judgments...<p>"You are building the future, so dress like it."
Suits are the future ? Silly me, I always thought they´ve been around for a loooong time.
Maybe the future will be more about substance than appearance.
Maybe the future will be about respect for diversity.
Maybe some people are just afraid of change.
Maybe having to really conect with somebody else for what he/she IS and not the uniform he/she wears is too frightening.<p>I´m not religious but I think Christ said something about the big bosses of the time looking like tombs: very fancy on the outside, rotten on the inside. It´s somewhere in the bible.<p>Ah, last but not least, being comfortable makes my mind really free to go. Probably releases some neurons to more pleasant/significant/important tasks.
Most days, I wear a t-shirt, basketball shorts, and Rainbow sandals to work. I'm a strong believer in wearing what's appropriate for the job. If I'm sitting in the office all day just coding, I don't need to be dressed nicely would rather be in something comfortable. If I'm meeting a client or going to an important business meeting, I damn well better be dressed well.
It's ENGINEERING people: Wear what you want, be comfortable, but be sure to do REALLY good engineering.<p>Different jobs have different norms. Wear a suit to your job as a software engineer at Apple or Microsoft or Google and I guarantee you'll get lots of attention... the WRONG KIND of attention. People will think you're demented. But even then, if your engineering is good, they'll simply think your a good engineer with an odd style of dress.<p>I can't emphasize enough that it's about the ENGINEERING. Working as a dev isn't making an impression at fashion week. You sit in your office all day long, and some days you might not even TALK to another person except to say "excuse me" when you push you way to the coffee pot to refuel.<p>If your engineering is on point, nobody is going to give a flying fuck how you dress.
I usually wear button-up shirts (and sometimes a sport coat) when going out or meeting with clients, but I am a firm believer that neckties cut off blood flow to the brain.<p>Also, slacks are just not comfortable. I much prefer a nice pair of dark, well-fitting, ironed jeans.
hmmm, spend 500$ on the elegant jacket, or buy this new gadgets that just came out. I cant decide.<p>Kidding aside (or maybe not, its a dilemma sometimes, first world problems).<p>As a sysadmin by trade, that actually attends not a small number of social events, I often dress in a suit. I feel great wearing them and get complimented often. But i cant imagine myself sitting in my office, in front of my screens wearing the latest fashion, it just doesn't work, I will feel overdressed and uncomfortable.<p>Oh and i love my t-shirts, I go to some lengths to find cool ones, silly and geeky. I know.
"Maybe it’s the New York City in me speaking, but the days of T-shirts and hoodies are over." The days of t-shirts are over? Are the days of pants over? Were t-shirts in and of themselves ever "in"? I wear unscreened/printed colored t-shirts every day. I take care of my body and choose t-shirts and pants that fit well. I have as little respect for a coworker or potential client that judges my ambition or skill set as inferior because I don't dress myself off a rack or blog as they do for me.
How often are developers put 'out there' in any sort of public role to <i>need</i> to dress up in the first place?<p>I think programmers in general find clothing to be arbitrary and stupid, it's simply not important compared to code or what we're doing.<p>I'm a lady software dev and pretty much just wear jeans, t-shirts, and hoodies. Some of the developers at my company wear slacks and a button-up shirt, some don't. It's personal preference over any sort of nonexistant obligation to do so.
this post is just as short sighted as the quote it's arguing with. strange to see banter about what people are wearing in a place like this. wear whatever you want.
I see on your site that you say, "recently, I also got rid of all of my possessions through a project called Cult of Less."<p>That must not have included all of your nice clothes.
Sometimes I use shirt and tie to go to work for fun. In a building full of t-shirt and jeans guys, it's easy to stand out like that. And sometimes I want to (or need to) stand out. And doesn't matter what I wear, I'm still doing my job (making stuff). I think looks really don't matter, but it goes both ways.
I imagine the answer to your question probably has something to do with the fact that most developers are staring at a screen for the majority of their waking hours. If you want to dress up in your 3 piece Armarni to impress your 27" LED then good luck to you...
Maybe I'm just not used to it, but I honestly find it harder to write code when I'm well dressed. I really don't know why this is the case. Perhaps my subconscious thinks I'm performing physical labor when I code, and thus being well dressed causes discomfort.
I'm not sure citing Tim Ferriss' work while advocating for developers to change their habits, helps with the credibility of your argument.<p>His body of work is infamous for being poorly researched, counter to a quality that technical people, like software engineers, value.
Because nice clothes are the epitome of form over function: they aren't comfortable to wear (loose fit == airflow), they're more expensive than is reasonable, and "good taste" in dress is mostly arbitrary.<p>T-shirts and jeans are comfortable, versatile, and inexpensive.
This article can only be beaten in its ridiculousness by the corporate ritual called casual Fridays.<p>I thank the lord I am no longer employed in a place that feels it's doing its employees a favor by instituting such policy.
Totally agree.<p>What shoes have you found to work? I'm usually in nice jeans and a button-down shirt (no tie or blazer, most of the time), but haven't found shoes I really like. Thoughts?
In the words of Barney Stinson:<p>"To score a ten would be just fine, but I’d rather be dressed to the nines. It’s a truth you can’t refute, nothing suits me like a suit."<p>Suit up, Men!
Because of the following reason:<p><a href="http://toblender.com/engineer-ranking-system/" rel="nofollow">http://toblender.com/engineer-ranking-system/</a>
Kelly, I hope you read this.<p>There is, historically, a significant divide between hackers and suits. A classic example is the Jargon File's entry on "suit": <a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/S/suit.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/S/suit.html</a> . Whether or not you subscribe to the hacker philosophy, it would be good to understand that many of the people odious to hackers, such as marketroids and PHBs, wear suits regularly, and hacker dislike of their clothing is ingrained.<p>"You’ve got nothing to lose, save for some 'geek cred.'" For some of us, this amounts to a betrayal of culture. It's not about looking nice -- I own a tuxedo and wear it when appropriate (opera, weddings, etc.) but I would not wear a suit to work. I am not a suit. I'm a hacker. I write code. I eat crappy pseudo-Chinese with all the spice, get 44Oz drinks at the Circle K because they run out of 64Oz cups, grok more programming languages than spoken languages, and I am not a suit.<p>I'm not offended, but I just want to impress on you that this idea is far older than either of us and, as such, deserves at least some recognition on par with the idea that hackers should dress in more professional or formal clothing on a regular basis.