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GNU Taler: An anonymous, taxable payment system using modern cryptography

271 pointsby harporoederabout 3 years ago

15 comments

danShumwayabout 3 years ago
This comes up every so often on HN, it&#x27;s been in development for a while. I do see at least some technical work happening in Taler (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;taler.net&#x2F;en&#x2F;news&#x2F;index.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;taler.net&#x2F;en&#x2F;news&#x2F;index.html</a>) so it doesn&#x27;t look like the project is dead, but I&#x27;m having a hard time finding a roadmap.<p>What is the overall state of Taler today? How close is this to being something tangible that I can hand to my parents where they can actually make real payments with it for an online product? Are there any businesses supporting it as a payment method yet?<p>I vaguely remember last time I checked that it was still trying to get buy-in from banks? But I could be remembering wrong.
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dangabout 3 years ago
Related:<p><i>GNU Taler – Payment system for privacy-friendly, fast, easy online transactions</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=29850143" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=29850143</a> - Jan 2022 (48 comments)<p><i>GNU Taler 0.8</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=28301172" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=28301172</a> - Aug 2021 (9 comments)<p><i>GNU Taler – A free software, privacy-friendly payment system</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=27302634" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=27302634</a> - May 2021 (1 comment)<p><i>GNU Taler – Payment system for privacy-friendly, fast, easy online transactions</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=26261314" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=26261314</a> - Feb 2021 (110 comments)<p><i>GNU Taler</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=15274110" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=15274110</a> - Sept 2017 (147 comments)<p><i>GNU Taler 0.0.0 released</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=11840453" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=11840453</a> - June 2016 (187 comments)<p><i>GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=10258312" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=10258312</a> - Sept 2015 (183 comments)
adrianmonkabout 3 years ago
&gt; <i>As Merchants are not anonymous, they can be taxed, enabling income or sales taxes to be withheld by the state while providing anonymity for Customers.</i><p>Pulling this off in the United States sounds somewhere between very challenging and impossible.<p>Sales tax is not uniform. Rates vary not only by state but also at a local level. In some states, sales taxes can be imposed by the state, by counties, by cities, by school districts, by transit authorities, and by other entities like special purpose districts[1].<p>Which ones (plural) of these sales taxes (plural) apply to a transaction depends on the <i>buyer&#x27;s location</i>.<p>In many cases, knowing the buyer&#x27;s city, state, and zip code is <i>not granular enough</i>. For example, the boundaries of a school district may not correspond to zip code or city.<p>The typical approach today is to collect the buyer&#x27;s full address. From that, there are databases that will tell you the list of jurisdictions and taxes that apply. Obviously, that&#x27;s not very anonymous.<p>Maybe you could have the buyer determine all of the jurisdictions&#x2F;taxes that apply to them and send only that info instead. That&#x27;s less granular, but in some cases it might give away a lot of information. (Sort of like browser fingerprinting.)<p>But if you do that, I&#x27;m not sure what the implications would be for sellers. Sellers are required to collect the sales tax and remit it to the state. They can get in trouble for not doing it right. Governments don&#x27;t like it when their taxes don&#x27;t get collected, so they sometimes create laws that put the burden of compliance on the seller.<p>---<p>[1] Special purpose districts could allow a county or local government to, for example, pick an arbitrary area and impose a sales tax within it just to support libraries that serve that area. Or crime prevention, road improvement, emergency services, hospitals, parks, economic development, etc.
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panick21_about 3 years ago
I think GNUNet GNS system is really nice. I wish they would find an application that actually uses it.<p>The problem with all that GNUNet stuff its that its almost all research, no real active open source project built around them.<p>I really like re:claimID, basically OpenID Connect auth against your local device. But it would of course need much more work to be practical.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.aisec.fraunhofer.de&#x2F;de&#x2F;fields-of-expertise&#x2F;projekte&#x2F;reclaim.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.aisec.fraunhofer.de&#x2F;de&#x2F;fields-of-expertise&#x2F;proje...</a><p>Overall its all very cool and this is in no way criticism on anybody that works on it. I am just point out to people that if you want to get involved or build on top of it what it is.<p>I would them to work together with some of those Peer-to-peer chat systems or something like that.<p>PS:<p>New GnuNet release: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gnunet.org&#x2F;en&#x2F;news&#x2F;2022-02-0.16.0.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gnunet.org&#x2F;en&#x2F;news&#x2F;2022-02-0.16.0.html</a>
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jqpabc123about 3 years ago
Sorry, I just don&#x27;t get it.<p>Seems like a lot of work to offer a less functional alternative to a VISA gift card purchased with cash.<p>The only real advantage I see is you don&#x27;t need to stop by WalMart. Maybe the activation fees with Taler are less but I&#x27;m sure it&#x27;s also less widely accepted.<p>VISA eGift cards are now available for purchase online with funds deposited to a digital wallet. These won&#x27;t be totally anonymous but then as far as I can tell, neither is Taler --- to provide all the functionality they claim, they will need to maintain records of both purchaser and merchant.
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zajio1amabout 3 years ago
One thing i really do not like on GNU Taler is separate customer and merchant accounts with restriction of receiving money for merchant account only.<p>In contrast to banking, where one has an account that works pretty much the same regardless of role of clients and nature of their transactions.
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joshuajillabout 3 years ago
GNU Taler is already operational at Bern University of Applied Sciences<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;taler.net&#x2F;en&#x2F;news&#x2F;2020-09.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;taler.net&#x2F;en&#x2F;news&#x2F;2020-09.html</a><p>Last thing I&#x27;ve learnt they were in touch with some Spanish bank institution to work on an implementation.<p>I guess a lot goes on behind closed doors.
andrewmcwattersabout 3 years ago
This is a really cool idea. I am interested in seeing other types of cryptographically secure payment or monetary systems come about, but decidedly not ones you&#x27;d call &quot;crypto,&quot; much like Taler very carefully explains it is not.<p>For example, deflationary gold-like digital currencies just don&#x27;t work. Fundamentally. It&#x27;s a futile exercise to debate. But debt-based digital currencies run into some really hard problems.<p>How do you know if someone is good for their IOUs? If someone takes out a large amount of debt, what prevents them from dropping their wallet&#x2F;identity and moving on to a new one and wiping themselves clear of their debts? Are all of these social issues? Does a new credit system built into such a currency serve as the basis for preventing someone from not paying their debts back to the network? Even if a credit system was built into the digital currency, someone can always create a new identity if there is no requirement for verification, but how do you design a system that does not require it?
Comeviusabout 3 years ago
It&#x27;s a great project, but there is nothing in it for grifters. There is not much hype or fervor for innovation these days that doesn&#x27;t involve potential bagholders.
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gojomoabout 3 years ago
On the one hand, this seems to prioritize...<p>• a dependency on a central exchange whose failure, or compromise, harms users; &amp;<p>• vigorous enforcement of taxes – &amp; potentially other onerous regulatory limitations<p>That may make it less of interest to many early adopters of cryptocurrencies.<p>On the other hand, there&#x27;s technologically lots of potential for proving compliance with tax &amp; regulatory regimes in a strong, minimal, privay-preserving way – helping refactor cooperation with legitimate governance in ways that don&#x27;t create extra, incidental vulnerabilities to other privacy or extra-legal coercive abuses. This could help advance those practices &amp; highlight future design choices.<p>Whether intentional or not, there&#x27;s a hint of the word &#x27;Thaler&#x27; in the name – originally derived from a place name (&#x27;Joachimstal&#x27; in modern Czechia) near historically-iimportant silver mining, and also a precursor of the modern English word &#x27;dollar&#x27;.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Thaler#Joachimsthaler" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Thaler#Joachimsthaler</a>
kkfxabout 3 years ago
Honestly I consider cryptos a trap even worse than actual &quot;official fiat money&quot;: yes, formally they are able to operate peer to peer without a central bank&#x2F;a banking system. Unfortunately they relay on an append-only &quot;big file&quot;. No matter how efficient it can be in storage terms, no matter how much it can be tweaked, a day or another, <i>after years of usage</i>, it will grow too much to be used by essentially all people except those with big datacenters.<p>I see the same mechanic behind &quot;free services&quot; that start &quot;gratis&quot; and one took off start adding small fees, more small fees, not-so-small fees etc until they get classic commercial-only services and users now deeply tied with them can&#x27;t escape.<p>Not counting the fact that without a network and relevant hw and sw we can&#x27;t just exchange money, with cash we just need to have them and a third party with a hand.<p>It&#x27;s a bit condensed but I think the point it&#x27;s clear enough...
godelskiabout 3 years ago
I&#x27;m always confused why taxability is a concern when it comes to cryptocurrencies. It is often brought up, including in the congressional hearings. How would it be any different than when we worked with cash? We were working with cash or checks until very recently. It seems rather simple to me. Employers still have to declare pay, stores still charge sales tax, and you can even build in a consumption tax (state level or federal) that applies to every transaction. A fully anonymous cryptocurrency doesn&#x27;t seem to interfere with taxation in any way (in fact, if you built in a consumption tax to the gas fees you could essentially collect taxes from other countries).<p>Is there something I&#x27;m missing here?
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xrdabout 3 years ago
I&#x27;m interested in trying this but after creating an account on their bank, I could not use the Android app to connect to it. It would be great to have a better onboarding experience. Because it is GNU I&#x27;ve got more hope that this is a reputable payment cryptocurrency.
grammersabout 3 years ago
Sounds rather awesome, but does it have the potential to go mainstream?
gyulaiabout 3 years ago
taxable? bug or feature?
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