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Web3 is centralized and inefficient

801 pointsby neelcabout 3 years ago

72 comments

alexb_about 3 years ago
People use centralized systems because they actually like the convenience that comes with it. And with that, comes the decentralized system changing in such a way that it changes to almost NEEDING centralization. The problem is that engineers and cybersecurity people all think that everyone else thinks like they do, when in actuality the complete opposite is true.<p>The biggest example is the internet itself - the internet is a completely decentralized network until it wasn&#x27;t, with website certs becoming required. People use popular web hosting because it&#x27;s easier and just better than what they could do. Email is completely decentralized, and it&#x27;s very easy to set up your own web server - as long as you want every single spam system to immediately block all of your messages.<p>&quot;Decentralized&quot; systems will all go the exact same way. And it&#x27;s because people don&#x27;t want to spend time setting up their own shit, they are very happy to pay in either money or data to have someone else do it for them. Yeah, it&#x27;s very easy to say &quot;well just set up your own thing&quot; but once you get to a critical mass of everyone using Gmail instead of their own server then the system becomes unusable without centralization.<p>Decentralization is a fantastic idea, and it works great in theory, but it fails to actually consider any of the practical problems that come with decentralization and doesn&#x27;t consider what people who aren&#x27;t programmers actually want to do with their time and money.
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vmceptionabout 3 years ago
&gt; A lot of Web3 platforms are in fact centralized. Your wallet (MetaMask), marketplaces (OpenSea), APIs (Alchemy) are all central platforms. Sure, they use a distributed database (blockchain), but before that it’s still a Go app on AWS, meaning its centralized.<p>&gt; Your wallet (MetaMask)<p>Run your own node. This is lazy reporting to reach the end point about fawning over FreeBSD (its in the article, literally an article about having fun staying poor), when you can just as easily inspire and teach people how to use custom RPCs. There is an opportunity to inspire people with the tools to know what to look for, even if it&#x27;s absurd to suggest people actually compile and run a node themselves. Tell them <i>why</i> the default behavior is a convenience and if they are interested in the decentralized parts then here is what to do.<p>&gt; marketplaces (OpenSea)<p>Yep. It is a GUI ontop of their smart contracts (public access backend code). You don&#x27;t have to use their GUI. You should inspect their smart contracts for centralized control, or at least look to see if anyone else has. There is an opportunity to inspire people with the tools to know what to look for, even if its absurd to suggest people actually do all the analysis themselves.<p>&gt; APIs (Alchemy) are all central platforms<p>a fine example. don&#x27;t use Alchemy or Infura as your RPC endpoints? Why not just make blog posts about that?<p>This kind of energy could just as easily be steered into &quot;how to improve the concept of Web3&quot; which <i>lots of people</i> are actually doing. It could just as easily be &quot;This isn&#x27;t decentralized! Let me fix that!&quot;
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ipnonabout 3 years ago
Some platforms like Ethereum are completely decentralized. You forfeit some of this decentralization bit by bit when using MetaMask, OpenSea or Alchemy, but the platform itself is still decentralized. The Web is completely decentralized, by you forfeit some of this decentralization bit by bit when using Paypal, Facebook, or AWS. The trend in technology has always been to trade control for convenience. This doesn&#x27;t stop you from writing your own browser and pushing packets out of your own HTTP server.<p>The (now infamous) Andre Cronje had a whimsical tweet reminiscing on his days as a lawyer: &quot;The contracts aren&#x27;t for when everything is going right. They&#x27;re for when everything is going wrong.&quot; Some network wide catastrophe is seemingly inevitable for any sufficiently large system. When these occur it will be the decentralized blockchains like Ethereum with failsafes in place to survive, and it&#x27;s the centralized blockchains like Binance that will implode.
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jdrcabout 3 years ago
The mortal sin is to consider artificial rarity <i>a good thing</i>. The internet is infinite, the appeal of the metaverse is exacty because you can be infinitely young, infinitely rich, have infinite partners, break ouf of the constraints of this world. Constrained virtual worlds are called games and have a different objective. If we are to build a zero sum world, we d better stick to the physical one.
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TobyTheDog123about 3 years ago
This seems like the angry ramblings of someone who missed the boat.<p>I&#x27;m not invested in cryptocurrency or other tokens, but this seems very unfair to the ecosystems that power them. Sure, there are centralized wallets, marketplaces, APIs, but that&#x27;s just not the point, not the problem they&#x27;re trying to solve.<p>If Google deletes your account, that&#x27;s it. If OpenSea deletes your account, another app will happily connect to your wallet and let you continue where you left off.
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Tade0about 3 years ago
To me the most damning thing said about web3 etc. to date is:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;cryptog0&#x2F;welcome2web3#social-media-on-web-30" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;cryptog0&#x2F;welcome2web3#social-media-on-web...</a><p>&gt; The cost of storing information on the Blockchain is referred to as GAS and at the time of writting costs roughly $2 USD per 1kb of data. To put this into perspective, a high resolution photograph can be upwards of 4000kb, or $8,000.<p>Even if this estimate is three orders of magnitude off, this idea is DOA.
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v_p_n_p_vabout 3 years ago
What&#x27;s amazing to me is that if you want to find any of these decentralized systems, you have to trust some centralized entity identifying them as the true system. For example, want to download MetaMask? How will you find it? Google MetaMask and trust that Google will have filtered out all the fake MetaMask wallets set up to steal your money. Want to lend money on a DeFi platform like Anchor? Again, Google and hope to God their fake counterpart didn&#x27;t figure out how to fake its way to the top of the SER page. People have lost tons of money this way.<p>If only there was a trustless, decentralized, immutable, database of sorts that could be used as the source of truth... thegraph.com supposedly wants to do this, but it wants me to connect my wallet and again I&#x27;m not sure I&#x27;m on the &quot;right&quot; website...
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littlecranky67about 3 years ago
The issue is that crypto-rooters took the term &quot;Web3&quot; and inevitable tied it to crypto. There are other decentralized approaches that could become a decentralized successor to todays web, (CCNs, IPFS) but are not blockchain&#x2F;crypto related. So please don&#x27;t buy into the &quot;only crypto&#x2F;blockchain&quot; is the future of the decentralized web narrative.
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gengeabout 3 years ago
This article is realy lazy. If you want an actually valid argument against web3, here is Tim O&#x27;Reilly&#x27;s take. He is the creator of the term web2.0 and created much of what we know as open source: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.oreilly.com&#x2F;radar&#x2F;why-its-too-early-to-get-excited-about-web3&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.oreilly.com&#x2F;radar&#x2F;why-its-too-early-to-get-excit...</a><p>I don&#x27;t understand how these types of articles can reach the front page of hackernews. A hadoop system could provide a replacement? That&#x27;s like arguing a multi-threaded pc will be a replacement.<p>Blockchain does have a lot of hype, we can all agree there. But there&#x27;s decent technology being built too. He is right in that many things are centralized, and many tools have to still be decentralized (like infura).<p>The thing is, things are being built to solve certain issues and we are at early stages. Wwhat serious teams want to achieve is not &quot;decentralization&quot;, but &quot;sufficient-decentralization&quot;. As in, you can expect for a protocol to enforce solving conflicts of interest accounting for what the majority in the protocol want. Governance is important here, and it&#x27;s being dealt with. DiD will potentially allow more democracy (instead of capitalisti) decision of the rules. You have energy sector investing heavily on energy conflict resolution. There&#x27;s many topics that are solved by certain features.
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nlabout 3 years ago
This is a pretty weak piece.<p>&gt; Your wallet (MetaMask), marketplaces (OpenSea), APIs (Alchemy) are all central platforms.<p>The whole point of the blockchain as a decentralized database idea is that people are free (in the &quot;you don&#x27;t need permission&quot; sense) to build on it.<p>Just because OpenSea is a popular interface for trading NFTs it doesn&#x27;t mean you can&#x27;t also trade those same NFTs elsewhere.<p>And your wallet isn&#x27;t &quot;centralized&quot; at all. Just because MetaMask happens to be implememented using a server doesn&#x27;t mean you can&#x27;t export your seed phrase and import it into (eg) TrustWallet and use that instead or as well.<p>&gt; And if Web3 is “decentralized”, then why can OpenSea take away your NFTs?<p>Now the Moxie piece[1] on the other hand (which was linked here) is a _great_ criticism by someone who actually bothered to understand what he was doing.<p>And if you actually _read_ the piece you&#x27;ll notice that the NFT wasn&#x27;t taken away at all: it was delisted on OpenSea, and their API stopped returning it.<p>Moxie&#x27;s criticisms of the dependency on APIs for performance are well balanced and completely valid here.<p>But the original piece too away all the subtle of Moxie&#x27;s piece and turned it into just another boring Web3 hit piece.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;moxie.org&#x2F;2022&#x2F;01&#x2F;07&#x2F;web3-first-impressions.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;moxie.org&#x2F;2022&#x2F;01&#x2F;07&#x2F;web3-first-impressions.html</a>
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yashgabout 3 years ago
Agree 100%. Web3 is useless. The whole web3 thing is an extension to get more people and more real money to get into the crypto ecosystem and provide liquidity to the early adopters and insiders.<p>I haven&#x27;t found one legitimate use case for blockchain. The only thing it is useful for it speculative gambling.<p>I wrote about it some time ago and and shared here on HN <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;yash.info&#x2F;blog&#x2F;what-is-web3&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;yash.info&#x2F;blog&#x2F;what-is-web3&#x2F;</a>
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wnolensabout 3 years ago
&gt; Sure, I work at Microsoft 365, because I had to. It was join Microsoft, or be dependent on my dad for money.<p>That&#x27;s a false dichotomy if I&#x27;ve ever seen one! And out of the blue.. the author seems ashamed but trying to justify why they shouldn&#x27;t be.<p>&gt; But hey, working at Redmond beats taking Miami and Houston underwater just to make a few <i>white crypto bros</i> happy.<p>yikes.. ok.
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JSavageOneabout 3 years ago
This is one of the weakest criticisms to web3 I&#x27;ve seen. Shocked that this is on the front page of HN. Literally every point here has already been talked about and debunked.<p>&gt; Web3 Platforms are Centralized<p>The blockchain itself is decentralized, and you don&#x27;t have to use centralized platforms.<p>&gt; Mining is Centralized<p>Sure mining is not as decentralized as we&#x27;d like it to be, but it is unquestionably less centralized than the alternative.<p>&gt; Environmental concerns<p>Look into &quot;Proof of Stake&quot;<p>&gt; Blockchain Sucks, Period<p>Blockchain works very well for its intended applications actually. For example, Ukraine just raised $54 million through crypto. The article doesn&#x27;t even attempt to construct an argument, so there&#x27;s nothing to address.<p>&gt; Blockchain is not the way to decentralization. We need a hyper-efficient system that takes minimal computing resources to scale to a whole planet of users, while making it easy for newcomers to join the network.<p>Looking forward to your whitepaper on your superior alternative to a blockchain. Until then, we&#x27;ll stick to blockchains for their intended use cases.<p>Honestly this article and the comments section is an embarrassment. You guys should actually research what you&#x27;re criticizing. HN has been anti-crypto since crypto was invented, at this point over a decade later maybe it&#x27;s time to have some humility and admit that you guys were wrong, and that maybe this thing is actually worth attempting to understand lest you want to continue to be on the wrong side of history
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adamkochanowiczabout 3 years ago
&gt; Look at email, while the protocol is technically “decentralized”, but look at how big Google Workspace and Microsoft 365 is. Sure, you can easily set up an email server on a $5 VPS, I do it with my domain, but most people just leave it to big providers. Web3 is no different.<p>This is an interesting argument to make but I wouldn&#x27;t say having large subsets belonging to single entities equates to it being &quot;not decentralized.&quot;
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Ar-Curunirabout 3 years ago
Absolutely content-free article that brings no new or useful criticisms (of which there are plenty) to the table.<p>If anyone is looking for useful criticisms of &quot;web3&quot;, here are a couple:<p>* there is no meaningful privacy on most popular chains; everybody can see your transaction history<p>* it&#x27;s difficult for new nodes to join and check the history, making decentralization difficult, and also leading to some of the centralization issues mentioned in the article<p>* the popular chains have low transaction throughput and latency due to reliance on outdated consensus mechanisms (BTC, Ethereum) and&#x2F;or due to the need to enable weaker computers to check history (but see previous point).<p>* losing your funds is easy if you lose your key<p>There&#x27;s tons of research being done to resolve these issues, ranging from improved cryptographic proof mechanisms such as zkSNARKs and interactive fault proofs, to better consensus and sybil-resistance mechanisms, but this stuff takes time, and is literally the cutting-edge of these fields, so impact is delayed.
OrlandoHakimabout 3 years ago
It is hard to advocate for the value of decentralized systems without sounding like a hand-waving conspiracy theorist.<p>The benefits of decentralization do come at a cost of efficiency and throughput and they are often harder to quantify or justify unless one takes a harder look at the fully loaded cost of centralization.<p>As an example, consider the fact that MacDonald’s is by far the most prolific restaurant in the world or that GMO crops undoubtedly yield more productivity per acre than heirloom crops. In both cases centralization and standardization of the process has led to huge productivity gains, but at what expense? What have we lost in the process?<p>I would argue that monoculture and food homogenization engineered to maximize calories out per $ in have come at the cost of diversity.<p>Diversity of ideas, strategies, goals, ownership and agency all result in a society that, while productive, is less resilient.<p>Look at the various fungal plagues that have blighted banana production over the years. Monoculture brought huge yields but at the expense of resilience as a single fungus nearly wiped out the original Gros Michel variety and now a new fungus threatens the same for the Cavendish.<p>Similarly, Bitcoin is an inefficient network for transmitting fiat compared to Visa when measured against the criteria payment networks are usually measured on. Ethereum takes huge resources to run the equivalent of a Raspberry Pi as a global state machine.<p>Measuring decentralized systems vs centralized purely on efficiency and throughput kind of misses the forest for the trees. Decentralized systems have value that isn’t always obvious to a superficial analysis such as this one. That doesn’t mean they should be ignored. Often the largest paradigm shifts look like toys to start. (See Clayton Christianson and disruptive innovation.)
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Lamad123about 3 years ago
There is no effing web3... People are desperately trying to spam this nothing into existence!!
cdnsteveabout 3 years ago
The author has no credibility on this subject at all. BTC is not mined with GPUs. They then make statements with no actual backing that are just opinions. Anyone can mine, yes it is profitable. Stop spreading false narratives. Then there&#x27;s the laughable environment statements everywhere. Do some actual research on a topic instead of talking about &quot;white crypto bros&quot;. This article is insulting and uninformed.
unixbaneabout 3 years ago
This article doesn&#x27;t even explain how web3 is centralized (it is in many ways). All I see is some stupid non-technical blog trying to orient blockchain as part of the enemy along with &quot;wh*te&quot;, &quot;0.1%&quot;, and &quot;bro&quot;. The irony is that this is a techbro-tier article.
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Zaskodaabout 3 years ago
&gt; The design of blockchain, is that as more coins are mined, you need more computing power just to get smaller amounts of blockchain.<p>I find this article a little tough to take because of sentences like this one. I think it could have used a bit more proof reading.
TeeWEEabout 3 years ago
If you store your webapp on IPFS, and connect to the blockchain. Then its truly decentralized. We need browsers to support IPFS... Even when blockchain fails, IPFS will be a big. Especially if we are going to be a multi-planetary species.
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yyykabout 3 years ago
NFTs are not semi-centralized because Web3 or blockchain. They are like this because our current notions of &#x27;ownership&#x27; are <i>intrinsically</i> centralized. Social reality beats tech, so the tech will end up either emulating it regardless of underlying &#x27;decentralized&#x27; technology, or the tech ends up withering away due to non-use.<p>Do a random sketch on your computer. Now put it on some Web0 site. What does &#x27;ownership&#x27; mean? You still have the sketch after all, no matter what people do with the sketch. Inasmuch as you &#x27;own&#x27; it, you may want attribution (people giving you credit), copyright (both limits on copying and copyright fees), warranty protection (if someone looks at the sketch and gets an epileptic attack, it&#x27;s not your fault), ability to transfer ownership, etc. In short, the current notion of &#x27;ownership&#x27; mostly related to relations with other humans*.<p>All these are provided by the law, and can only be provided by the law. &#x27;Code is law&#x27; simply changes the entities making decisions, it&#x27;s still law. If a single chain is a law, than it must have only one record for &#x27;owned&#x27; stuff. If you had multiple chains, this strongly affects the value of ownership. Imagine multiple records of ownership - does one pay copyright fees to all the different records? Split them? Recognize only one? Any solution ends up devaluing or centralizing.<p>This is a poor match for NFT tech, since nothing really stops you from forking (a cryptocurrency fork has serious roadblocks. A NFT fork has a much easier time fighting the regular NFT using the NFT&#x27;s own assets), but to have value one needs to approach a single source. So NFT will either fork to nothingness or end up de facto centralized.<p>* In a physical asset, there are a range of decisions regarding the physical asset, but again the question of who makes these decisions is a question of relations between humans, and inherently pushes towards centralization.
mmaunderabout 3 years ago
I still can&#x27;t get over that NFT&#x27;s are just a URL pointing to the data. They don&#x27;t even have an on-chain hash of the digital asset. It&#x27;s like selling a sign pointing to houses for the price of the house, and claiming you own the house, hoping that the sign will increase in value the way the house does, and bragging about it.<p>For reference: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;moxie.org&#x2F;2022&#x2F;01&#x2F;07&#x2F;web3-first-impressions.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;moxie.org&#x2F;2022&#x2F;01&#x2F;07&#x2F;web3-first-impressions.html</a>
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diego_moitaabout 3 years ago
&quot;People don’t want to run their own servers, and never will&quot;.<p>Moxie Marlinspike<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;moxie.org&#x2F;2022&#x2F;01&#x2F;07&#x2F;web3-first-impressions.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;moxie.org&#x2F;2022&#x2F;01&#x2F;07&#x2F;web3-first-impressions.html</a>
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nootropicatabout 3 years ago
Those &quot;I spent 1 hour looking at crypto and here&#x27;s my opinion&quot; takes on HN are starting to get tiring, because debunking them takes way more energy than writing the article. And then a next mutation gets posted sometime later with exact same theses, again and again.<p>The only critique from people that really understand how it works basically boils down to: the vision of a smart contract based economy has potential, but I don&#x27;t believe the transition from the mostly-ponzi phase to the real economy phase can happen because of [reasons, usually legal].<p>&gt;Your wallet (MetaMask)[..] it’s still a Go app on AWS<p>no<p>&gt;And if Web3 is “decentralized”, then why can OpenSea take away your NFTs?<p>it can&#x27;t<p>do a bare minimum of research
oneshoeabout 3 years ago
Crypto IMHO -&gt; We are changing the wheels on the bus while it is moving. To do so, we have to use the old wheels until we have all the wheels in place to take off the old wheels.<p>You can&#x27;t replace an entire infrastructure, this large, overnight.
lumostabout 3 years ago
I&#x27;m curious, Are there any web 3 sites worth visiting? Can someone point to something that I should try out to access web 3?
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donatjabout 3 years ago
Is IPFS “Web3”? Seems like it should be. I have used IPFS a number of times and am a fan, but keeping up with buzzwords is a lot.
rvzabout 3 years ago
Yawn. Once again. Another boring and weak article with no new arguments.<p>Not all NFTs are JPEGs and there are those that have utility like ENS [0] which <i>anyone</i> can register a domain and it cannot be seized. That concept works well for identities in general and here is a use case of this [1][2].<p>Lets address all of this:<p>&gt; Web3 Platforms are Centralized<p>It&#x27;s true for OpenSea, Alchemy and MetaMask (Owned by Infura) but that is the point of platforms. They are not hiding that fact and they know it. However, OpenSea is not Ethereum and the blockchain is the one that is claiming to be &#x27;decentralized&#x27;.<p>Not everyone is using MetaMask? Maybe they are using Trust Wallet, Portis, WalletConnect or Dapper or even Ledger as their wallet.<p>Am I forced to use a centralized wallet like MetaMask?<p>&gt; Mining is Centralized<p>Yeah, PoW is garbage and getting centralized due to the mining pools, but not all of Web3 cryptocurrencies are using PoW (or even PoS) are they.<p>&gt; Blockchain Sucks, Period<p>&gt; We need a hyper-efficient system that takes minimal computing resources to scale to a whole planet of users, while making it easy for newcomers to join the network.<p>Algorand? Solana?, Terra?, Stellar?, Avalanche?, Nano?<p>Efficient alternatives already exist and the author&#x27;s arguments have been refuted to death.<p>Just ignore cryptocurrencies and the hype of Web3 if you don&#x27;t like it then, but once again they (and others) are even incapable of simply doing that, no matter how many years they keep watching it and writing the same articles.<p>Until the next time we complain about Web3 on HN, I am begging anyone that knows it&#x27;s doomed downfall to just ignore it and let it die. Can you do just that?<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ens.domains&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ens.domains&#x2F;</a><p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.skiff.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.skiff.org&#x2F;</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.skiff.org&#x2F;updates&#x2F;skiff-ens" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.skiff.org&#x2F;updates&#x2F;skiff-ens</a>
sMarsIntruderabout 3 years ago
I liked this post till the bullshit paragraph on mining which is wrong on many sides. Bitcoin makes 0.1% rich richer? That’s it? What the heck man, Bitcoin is a gift to humanity and it’s truly decentralised compared to others. Bitcoin mining isn’t centralised, there’s a decent percentage of solo mining which it’s increasing over time. But I get your point. Also what’s wrong this kind of centralisations on mining pools? They’re just coordinators and there are many. Unfortunately I see biased information on that part.
yrralabout 3 years ago
The author is just defining &quot;decentralized&quot; based on what he can come up with arguments against. In doing so, he misses some very important properties of this decentralization (that he either doesn&#x27;t realize or doesn&#x27;t have arguments for).<p>To me, web3 is decentralized in that the user data is exposed and freely available to be composed upon.<p>For example, when someone makes a deposit (say of ERC20 USDC to earn interest, around 3.0% currently) on <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;compound.finance" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;compound.finance</a>, that data is freely available and the &quot;receipt&quot; becomes another token (the ERC20 USDC cToken). [1]<p>This token can now be used for other things, on any other protocol, without the involvement or permission of compound itself. For example, there is a &quot;compound&quot; pool on <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;curve.fi" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;curve.fi</a> that allows users to deposit cTokens so that they can earn interest on their stablecoins while also providing liquidity for stablecoin swaps and earning swap fees as well on top. [2] In fact, with this pool, the user can deposit&#x2F;withdrawal just pure ERC20 USDC instead and curve will deposit&#x2F;withdrawal that into&#x2F;from compound on behalf of the user, again, with no involvement of compound at all. (other than interacting with its &quot;immutable&quot; smart contract)<p>&gt; As a sidenote: Note that with web2, much of your data is locked away. Eg, twitter&#x27;s closed api, gmail marking so many emails from self-hosted as spam, fb everything, American airlines not allowing scraping of a user&#x27;s point wallet, cc points being non-transferrable, etc etc.<p>This deposit then gives the user back another ERC20 token &quot;cCrv&quot; that can then be used in other DeFi protocols without the involvement or authorization of curve.<p>At this point people are talking past each other because &quot;centralization&quot; can be used to refer to many things. The author&#x27;s is just critiquing a tiny portion of the term decentralization (infrastructure), which I guess he most understands since his day job involves that.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;compound.finance&#x2F;docs&#x2F;ctokens" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;compound.finance&#x2F;docs&#x2F;ctokens</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;curve.fi&#x2F;compound" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;curve.fi&#x2F;compound</a>
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EGregabout 3 years ago
Web2 is also centralized, just to be clear. And what’s more, Web2 and Web3 have been horribly derailed by the profit motive:<p>Web2 by VC investment (private ponzi schemes)<p>Web3 by meme tokens and NFTs (public ponzi schemes)<p>Here is my response to Moxie Marlinspike’s excellent criticism a month ago, explaining why decentralization IS vitally important and what we can do to rescue Web3 from itself:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;community.intercoin.org&#x2F;t&#x2F;web3-moxie-signal-telegram-and-why-decentralization-matters" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;community.intercoin.org&#x2F;t&#x2F;web3-moxie-signal-telegram...</a><p>We need a “web4” that actually implementa utility and gets mainstream adoption. I wrote extensively about how to get there.<p>The PDF version: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;intercoin.org&#x2F;proposal.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;intercoin.org&#x2F;proposal.pdf</a><p>Examples of applications already built and tested to achieve this: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;intercoin.org&#x2F;applications" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;intercoin.org&#x2F;applications</a>
JaggerFooabout 3 years ago
The massive pace of blockchain technology, applications of math, innovation, and open experimentation is great to see.<p>Don&#x27;t try to stifle innovation because users are finding ways to interact that are simple, or you think its not decentralized enough. There is great work being done beneath the surface applications you are complaining about - by respected researchers.<p>Cheers
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epolanskiabout 3 years ago
Once more we&#x27;re reminded what a niche property, almost a non-issue, <i>trustlessness</i> is. People and organizations would choose trusty, and accountable, individuals and&#x2F;or systems over trustless machinery any other day.
throwaway4goodabout 3 years ago
Crypto is about finance: trading, speculation, banking the unbanked ...<p>Technology is an enabler that allows &quot;regulatory arbitrage&quot; beyond that it does not matter at all.<p>If I want to create a bank; hook into my national central bank, join the swift network, buy and sell securities for my clients. Is that a technical problem? Sure it is hard and silly from a tech side but that is all just a question of hiring some specialists.<p>The real problem is that I would be under tight regulation, right down to the central bank deciding on who I hire as CEO.<p>With crypto, I can just hook myself in.<p>That is the difference.
xiphias2about 3 years ago
,, But for me to go into crypto, the ship has sailed a long time ago’’<p>I have heared this over and over from people since when Bitcoin was $200.<p>Bitcoin mining is sadly somewhat centralized, but people fleeing Ukraine and Russia sometimes don’t have much choice of how they move all their net worth through the borders.<p>A CEO of an American company with Russian employees said that Bitcoin practically saved their lives and the CEO could help them escape the totalitarian regime.
blenderdtabout 3 years ago
I think the blog post of Moxie Marlinspike is related to this. It was also discussed some weeks ago:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=29845208" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=29845208</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;moxie.org&#x2F;2022&#x2F;01&#x2F;07&#x2F;web3-first-impressions.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;moxie.org&#x2F;2022&#x2F;01&#x2F;07&#x2F;web3-first-impressions.html</a>
Animatsabout 3 years ago
The NFT thing has a serious pricing problem. It has the central control of centralization, and the pricing of an inefficient blockchain. Putting content on Decentraland is expensive. There&#x27;s a US $500 &quot;curation fee&quot; per item. And it seems to cost at least $18 to sell something through OpenSea.<p>Such transaction costs knock out most of the applications that are not &quot;Make Money Fast&quot;.
fulafelabout 3 years ago
What are some interesting p2p or otherwise decentralized content platforms today that could be next to gain critical mass in users and content?<p>I know webrtc lets you do things like peertube, webtorrent, and p2p videoconferencing, then we have mastodon and some other social platforms, and various relatively unpopular IM platforms.<p>And good old email of course, maybe that could even incrementally bootstrap some new usage model eg in IM.
nonrandomstringabout 3 years ago
Loved this line in the article:<p>&gt; It’s also sad to see my dad hyping up Web3 in his LinkedIn.<p>Conjures up images of a domesticated, pipe-smoking, squarely dressed old chap sitting at his Windows 95 computer saying &quot;This world wide web three-point-O with blockchains is the latest thing dontchyknow&quot; and kid is rolling his eyes and saying &quot;Sure dad. Sure.&quot;
ODILON_SATERabout 3 years ago
&gt; When Miami and Houston go underwater, a16z will be partly responsible.<p>Not a climate change denier, but do people seriously believe these events will happen soon? Even if these models are right on ocean levels raising, you have to believe that humans would find a way to engineer a solution to keep these cities afloat so to speak.
drKarlabout 3 years ago
&quot;I didn’t really want to work on Windows or .NET for a living, and developing on Windows is still a struggle for me, but I had to.&quot; That will probably not help him on his next evaluation for a bonus or promotion...<p><i>Gif of drying tears with cash</i>
Trasterabout 3 years ago
I think the way I&#x27;ve started to think about Blockchain&#x2F;Bitcoin is that it&#x27;s just pure regulatory arbitrage. First Bitcoin was about being able to conduct illegal transactions, now it&#x27;s about being able to scam people and conduct market manipulation. So that&#x27;s a bearish sign right? I don&#x27;t think so, if you look at the history of silicon valley companies that pursue regulatory arbitrage models like Uber initially grow because it allows them to outcompete the incumbent, but as the regulations catch up, they are now the incumbent already and so the re-imposition of regulations doesn&#x27;t destroy them, it just holds them in place, having already got to a strong position. Uber isn&#x27;t worthless, but it&#x27;s worth about as much as if you&#x27;d just added up all the taxi businesses they had replaced.
Melatonicabout 3 years ago
Web3 feels a lot more like marketing BS done by people who are late to the game.
peter_retiefabout 3 years ago
I am developing a decentralised identification system using wearable&#x27;s Hopefully people will realise the benefit of not having centralised security control. I also realise that people are not rational.
boringgabout 3 years ago
Am I wrong in my assumption that centralizing increases efficiency while decentralizing increases costs&#x2F;inefficiencies but provides security gains. <i>Very broadly speaking</i><p>Title seems to be counterintuitive.
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divs1210about 3 years ago
While this forum has lots of people who are into tech and finance inexplicably getting their panties in a bunch over crypto, YCombinator keeps incubating crypto startups and making big money...
jasfiabout 3 years ago
Web3&#x27;s opportunity is crypto trading. I&#x27;m working on automating it, with an MVP due soon: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tradecast.one" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tradecast.one</a>
birracervezaabout 3 years ago
Every single day, the exact same article, with the exact same points, repeated the exact same way, and every time they are wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. (But of course it reached the top of HN with hundreds of upvotes.)<p>Just for one glaringly obvious example, look at<p>&gt; And if Web3 is “decentralized”, then why can OpenSea take away your NFTs?<p>No, they cannot take away your NFTs, they can hide your listing, at best, but bonus points for linking to another crypto smear article that completely misunderstands how crypto and web3 work as well.<p>You people don&#x27;t even try to understand what you&#x27;re criticizing, you&#x27;re just parroting disinformation because you&#x27;re mad at crypto.
samoitabout 3 years ago
For those who want to know what is a NFT: Imagine you get the hacker news logo (or any other digital asset, like an image,video,song etc). Then I take that image and apply to it a hash funtion to generate an id, a number that later I put into any blockchain (usually ethereum). As the blockchain is ordered the first one who does this process stores in the blockchain the asset... and so its property. Later someone else can take the same logo, apply the same hash to get the same id, but as I said The first who did it has the property because the blocks (chain) are ordered.
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shp0ngleabout 3 years ago
This seems to be beating a dead horse.<p>Who actually gives attention to this knows this already. People that want to gamble still throw money at it anyway. Eh whatever.
kosolamabout 3 years ago
So much useless and false information. These types of know it all posts that just spread ignorance aren’t helping anyone at anything at all…
mwattsunabout 3 years ago
&gt; It’s also sad to see my dad hyping up Web3 in his LinkedIn.<p>My father is impervious to subtweets because he won&#x27;t read anything I write LOL
superkuhabout 3 years ago
&gt;a few white crypto bros happy.<p>I agree with most of the arguments within this write up but the racism in the final line is not very cool.
mccorrinallabout 3 years ago
The parameter being optimized for in crypto is cash inflow, not actual functionality&#x2F;efficiency&#x2F;decentralization.
Melatonicabout 3 years ago
Is it just me or did no one (at the time) call the mobile revolution &quot;Web2&quot; ?
xaxaxbabout 3 years ago
First car slower than horse.
Victeriusabout 3 years ago
Can someone explain what Web3 is in 50 words or less to a layman?
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jdthediscipleabout 3 years ago
&quot;but we are just to make a few white rich crypto bros richer than ever before&quot;<p>I was about to be with you until you unnecessarily brought race into this. Do you have reliable statistics on the race of the major miners and does it even matter?
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muttanttabout 3 years ago
Yet another article from a person who missed out on Bitcoin.
cevaabout 3 years ago
well for Web3 is simple just ask the question, does your web3.0 project involve crypto currency model, if it does it&#x27;s not web3.0
bbno4about 3 years ago
How many times do we have to have the same misinformation shoved down our throats lol<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;skerritt.blog&#x2F;response-to-moxie&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;skerritt.blog&#x2F;response-to-moxie&#x2F;</a>
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anon_dabout 3 years ago
&gt; just to make a few white crypto bros happy.<p>Causal racism
bradnickelabout 3 years ago
This post is poorly written by someone severely misinformed or deliberately dishonest and at best seriously naive about how technoology is adopted and evolves. Sad that people would give it any attention.
saurikabout 3 years ago
Yes: Tor is &quot;somewhat decentralized&quot; in that there are 9 servers run by people to maintain the directory instead of 1, and Roger Dingledine--one of the main people behind Tor--claims to have met in person only like 2&#x2F;3rds of the participants; but is it as centralized as Etheteum? No. Most &quot;web3&quot; tech (god I hate that term as someone actively in this space :&#x2F;), BTW, <i>literally</i> are based at least some way--if not extremely literally--on DHTs... including Ethereum, whose nodes self-organize using the Kademlia DHT model. The <i>problem</i> is that you have to figure out some way to deal with sybil and eclipse attacks--which I2P (referenced as somehow good in this article) was so bad at dealing with that it was essentially destroyed by the UCSB security lab, the principal investigator of whom, if you now talk to him years later, stopped bothering to research I2P as they never bothered to really address previous complaints--is that you need to figure out some way to make it hard to join the network (without throwing up your hands in defeat and simply assuming that 9 hobbyists are going to be sufficient to police a network like Tor, which we <i>know</i> is precarious as people keep finding new large, dominating entities to report about every few years), and that&#x27;s exactly what all the work on cryptocurrencies is about: figuring out the incentive structure for how to avoid these attacks we have been studying since well before Bitcoin pioneered Nakamoto probalistic consensus (I was doing distributed systems research in like 2003 and we had been talking about these attacks for years earlier even then) and then how to protect and come to consensus on that incentive system itself (as you rapidly end up figuring out you need some kind of tradable and storable reputation system... aka money). The reality is that cryptocurrencies are the most recent <i>culmination</i> of distributed systems research, and the extent to which they are inefficient sadly is largely because humans simply have not yet figured out how to do it better (and if you really think you can, please <i>do</i> instead of calling the people actually doing this work somehow stupid for not doing the &quot;obvious&quot; thing of attaching a DHT up to a branch and bound or map-reduce computation system, as that was the work people at UCSB were trying to do back in early 2000s and you know what the professor who was in charge of <i>that</i> lab is now super excited about? cryptocurrencies, as he knows they solve real problems he ran into trying to build a decentralized computation platform). (And to be clear: do I think Ethereum or even Avalanche has solved all the issues yet? Hell no. But they are going in the correct direction... if--and this is where the reasonable arguments about cryptocurrencies tend to be--you believe decentralized systems are actually important to achieve or should ever be used instead of a centralized one: some people seem to disagree with this--which I certainly disagree with, but I don&#x27;t think is entirely crazy--and that leads them to constantly want to replace cryptocurrencies with centralized systems, but you can&#x27;t point at older decentralized systems and somehow claim they are <i>better</i> than what we are building today without first analyzing why they never really went anywhere and asking how and where--and then <i>why</i>--cryptocurrencies and their distributed blockchain tech are actually even that different.)
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elkteaabout 3 years ago
web3 is the new ipv5
Galanweabout 3 years ago
In all seriousness, the quality of this article is abysmal.<p>It&#x27;s just a stream of rants about centralized vs decentralized without a single argument or explanation that stands on its legs. There are also a lot of asumptions and wishful thinking about the prospects of decentralization in finance and banking that clearly show the cluelessness of the author.<p>&gt; I’m not the first person to tell you this, and certainly not the last, but Web3 is in fact centralized, just as Web2 was. Web3 is just a worse version of Web2.<p>Hum okay, dare to clarify? Nope, there&#x27;s just not a single place in the article where some argument to back this claim is made. Yet this is repeated over and over. This is just argumenting by repetition.<p>&gt; A lot of Web3 platforms are in fact centralized. Your wallet (MetaMask), marketplaces (OpenSea), APIs (Alchemy) are all central platforms. Sure, they use a distributed database (blockchain), but before that it’s still a Go app on AWS, meaning its centralized.<p>What does that even mean? I fear the author has no idea what he&#x27;s talking about, and does not really understand how a Web3 app work. For those that wonder, here is what it typically looks like:<p>- You put the logic of your Web3 app in a smart contract, that&#x27;s the essence of why it&#x27;s called a distributed application.<p>You will most likely want some kind of graphical interface so that your users can interact with it. It wouldn&#x27;t be very convenient if your app was just an API to call your smart contract on a blockchain.<p>- This GUI often takes the form of an SPA, which indeed you need to somehow serve to the users. You can serve in a distributed fashion, using IPFS for instance, but since the adoption is not that high, often there is also a traditional webserver somewhere to deliver the SPA (e.g. AWS Cloudfront or any other CDN). This is one of the potential point of centralization, but it gets better everyday with adoption of IPFS and such.<p>Now you have 1) the logic of your app in a smart contract on the blockchain and 2) a graphical interface that was somehow served to the client. You now need to let the GUI interact with the smart contract. There is mainly two possibilities to do that:<p>- Require the client to use a browser extension that offers an API for the webapp to pilot the user&#x27;s wallet. That&#x27;s what MetaMask does. It exposes an API that is usable from javascript webapps, and perform wallet operations accordingly. It&#x27;s a bit annoying to use though, for two reasons: 1) MetaMask is a specific extension, with a specific API. If your webapp needs MetaMask to interact with the blockchain, you are somehow restricting the user to a single possible software, which is not really ideal (note that users could still directly call the smart contract, but we&#x27;re talking about the average user here, not programmers) 2) MetaMask is not _just_ a bridge between a webapp and the blockchain, it&#x27;s also a wallet, in that it wants to hold and manage your private keys for you (though there have been some developments to use hardware wallets with MetaMask). Note that MetaMask in itself is not _really_ centralized, it&#x27;s just a software that you need to have installed. MetaMask communicate with the blockchain using traditional JSON RPC, so you need to configure MetaMask with the address of a node on this blockchain that accepts JSON RPC. Could be your own self-hosted node, but for simplicity MetaMask defaults to a mutual hosting blockchain node provider: &quot;Infura&quot;.<p>Overall, if your graphical interface only support the MetaMask API to interact with the blockchain, it defeats a bit the purpose, which is why new solutions (and standards) are emerging.<p>- One promising alternative which is starting to be implemented in a lot of Web3 apps is &quot;Wallet Connect&quot;. It&#x27;s a protocol for bridging a webapp and a wallet. There&#x27;s a lot of advantages to this model: 1) the webapp is now agnostic of the wallet it talks to. Any wallet application can support the &quot;Wallet Connect&quot; protocol and thus be used with any Web3 app. 2) There is no need for the wallet and the Web3 app to communicate locally (e.g. with a browser extension). You can use a Web3 app on your computer and pair it with a wallet on your phone or hardware wallet.<p>&gt; Once upon a time, it was easy to mine Bitcoin. But Bitcoin took off, and it’s now absurdly hard to mine Bitcoin. You need farms of GPU mining just to get tiny amounts of bitcoin.<p>Hum, yeah right, I agree with the author on this one, but what&#x27;s the link between the energy consumption of Bitcoin&#x27;s PoW, and the centralization of Web3 apps?!<p>&gt; The design of blockchain, is that as more coins are mined, you need more computing power just to get smaller amounts of blockchain.<p>Hu, no, that&#x27;s the design of &quot;Bitcoin&quot;, not &quot;blockchain&quot;.<p>&gt; And even if the environmental concerns were nonexistent, if it’s so hard to mine Bitcoin, it favors established miners over newcomers. Is that really what you call a “decentralized” platform?<p>Indeed, which is why the overwhelming majority of blockchains are now &quot;proof of something-that-is-not-work&quot; (typically proof of stake).<p>But proof of stake does not solve the whole problem of the divide between &quot;regular users&quot; and &quot;miners&quot;. Most people &quot;staking&quot; on blockchains use some kind of proxy or service to do so, because, well, it&#x27;s not like everyone wants to host a block validating node even if it doesn&#x27;t use much electricity.<p>Which leads me to modern blockchains that have WebAssembly SDKs, so you could perfectly imagine that you would be able to contribute to the blockchain during your browsing of the website, this eliminating the need for node hosting and staking services altogether.<p>&gt; Expecting the financial industry to run on blockchain is like expecting AT&amp;T to run their backbone on a Amazon warehouse sized place full of 56k dial-up modems.<p>Clearly, clearly, you have no idea of how the financial and banking systems are solving asset settlement and reconciliation today, because blockchain solves _exactly_ that problem, and in a very efficient and secure manner. Not only that, but even the slowest of the worst blockchain out there is infinitely more efficient and fast at settling transactions than any existing custodian, back office, clearing house, or broker.<p>Lots of people assume that when they see a transaction incoming on their bank account, then it&#x27;s &quot;done&quot;. Similarly, people assume that they can &quot;buy a share of Apple and sell it to buy a share of Microsoft&quot; in the same day. That&#x27;s a horribly wrong understanding of how it works, trust me, I&#x27;ve been working in finance for 15 years now.<p>The reality is much, much more complicated than that. Most financial settlements are _at the very least_ 1 (or 2, or 3) days. The whole finance and banking industry is built around huge settlement&#x2F;unwind systems that give you the impression that things are instantaneous, while you&#x27;re just seeing &quot;optimistic states in case of no settlement errors&quot;.<p>See <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.fidelity.com&#x2F;learning-center&#x2F;trading-investing&#x2F;trading&#x2F;avoiding-cash-trading-violations" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.fidelity.com&#x2F;learning-center&#x2F;trading-investing&#x2F;t...</a> for an introduction of brokerage settlement, then realize this is just the tip of the iceberg.<p>&gt; Sure, I work at Microsoft 365, because I had to. It was join Microsoft, or be dependent on my dad for money.<p>That sure escalated quickly.
hahaitsfunnyabout 3 years ago
Depending on how you view the world and whether you think nation states and government-backed fiat is a good or bad thing, probably defines your stance on blockchain and cryptocurrencies IMO. I still contend that blockchain has its use cases - journalism, games which wish to institute a real economy instead of a virtual one, voting, etc...<p>Blockchain has been maturing and bitcoin has been around for a minute, but ethereum and the whole smart contract bit is newer and POS is around the corner if you believe those working on the project.<p>I view bitcoin and blockchain as a big FU to fiat and I&#x27;m okay with that, because IMHO hierarchical power structures are inherently a bad thing.
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ComradePhilabout 3 years ago
It is inevitable that certain chains and dapps will be &quot;centralized&quot;, in that most of the computation and storage will move to a few big datacenters.<p>What the people like the author have not understood is that running blockchain ans dapps on Azure is NOT THE SAME as running Postgres and a go app on a VM in Azure in a VERY IMPORTANT way... and that is Microsoft taking the servers down does not make the app or the data go away.<p>This is THE selling point of blockchain and dapps.
kkjjkgjjggabout 3 years ago
Let&#x27;s talk again when the banks cancel his accounts because he refuses to get vaccinated, or some other nonsense.<p>Most Web3 stuff is shit, that much is true, but that also goes for a lot of other things.
Shadonototraabout 3 years ago
destructive greed, aka capitalism
cy_overlordabout 3 years ago
Remember this: &lt;<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;media.wired.com&#x2F;photos&#x2F;593230395c4fbd732b5511e3&#x2F;master&#x2F;pass&#x2F;petsdotcom2-ft.jpg" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;media.wired.com&#x2F;photos&#x2F;593230395c4fbd732b5511e3&#x2F;mast...</a>&gt;<p>History is repeating itself, old thinking + new technology is never going to create innovation, it&#x27;s just going to end like a blazing trail of a shooting star, a tale to tell. We are pretty much heading in the same direction with blockchain.<p>Decentralization is smexy but it comes with a price, it disrupts everything, starting from the way we build it.<p>I agreed entirely that VCs are building monopolies and that money are pouring into the space for no obvious practical reason but it is inevitable until we find a better model of building. And those who are trying to build a web2 version of something in web3 will most likely fail because web3 isn&#x27;t a replacement or better alternative to web2. Hence it is pointless to compare what we are have, i.e. a decentralized email server.<p>Decentralization, in my humble opinion, is putting the decisions&#x2F;ownership back to the users but it is never going to liberate the users from a centralized entity. The things we choose to use&#x2F;consume will inevitably be owned by a centralized entity, the key difference is whether or not we can seamlessly migrate to another platform of choice. And instead of one big entity controlling everything, we get multiple smaller space that makes their own rule providing the same service.<p>NFTs marketplace is an example of this, you own the NFT, you can take it and move it to another platform and you can even access directly via your own node without any platform. The problem with NFT however, is the usefulness itself, not the nature of NFT.<p>Imagine having multiple social networks that you can join with a wallet address, each with their own rules and networks. Instead of a Metaverse, think Multiverse.<p>Imagine having multiple ads platform that you can choose to integrate with your daily browsing and earn tokens to use in a certain way while doing so. Think Brave but instead of just Brave, you get different ads agencies with different collection of ads.<p>The main problem here is that our old business model doesn&#x27;t work here, we are most likely going to end up broke running something that is ideally &quot;decentralized&quot;. The fallback plan? Sit and write about how centralized web3 is OR experiment by building on top of blockchain technology, fail miserably as a joke, make some noise and motivate someone to &quot;think different&quot;.