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The dispute between radical feminism and transgenderism (2014)

60 pointsby greenailabout 3 years ago

19 comments

pcmoneyabout 3 years ago
If everything is constructed, if everything is relative, if everything is subjective and if everything is on a spectrum then what are we even arguing about?<p>Nobody fits their gender norms perfectly. No culture has identical gender norms. Even physiologically chromosomes are more nuanced than X and Y.
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incomingpainabout 3 years ago
A surprising number of twitch and twitter bans this week. Destiny for example is now permanently banned from twitch because he took the position that trans shouldn&#x27;t compete in physical sports. Meanwhile, he has extensive history of supporting trans rights in full on debates.<p>As they say, the left eats their own because they could no longer attack anyone but their own.<p>Let&#x27;s throw down. I am trans and have had srs(brassard). I am absolutely not affiliated with the LGBT political activist group.<p>What is going on? Trans people are treated like horseshit and ostracized from society. When you have a greatly disenfranchised group of people who basically hate society. Their goal becomes tearing down society. Destruction of society is the goal. You have some politicians who want to help and effectively help integrate trans people back into society. However, they did this through compelled speech laws. You either say their ridiculous pronouns or you end up in front of a &#x27;hate crime tribunal&#x27; quite literally.<p>This isn&#x27;t helping the situation at all. This is in fact making the problem far worse.
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thinkingemoteabout 3 years ago
&quot;an interesting game, professor falcon. It appears the only winning move is not to play.&quot;
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blippageabout 3 years ago
As the saying goes: keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out.<p>The more that things are discussed, analysed, out-analysed, over-analysed, the more they devolve into a cacophony of views. Particularly with hot-button topics such as this, there are many people pushing an agenda rather than trying to arrive at the truth. We are living in an age of moral relativism with the bleating of a thousand views, but no guiding principals to sort the wheat from the chaff. In the end, all we can do is throw our hands up and declare all views are right, and all views are wrong.
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ComradePhilabout 3 years ago
Changing entire social norms to include a very small population will only lead to problems.<p>Accepting trangenders for who they are is a much better strategy in the long run. Why are they so keen on fitting into existing definitions, social norms and binary gender tropes when they are not the same? It&#x27;s absolotely ridiculous.
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low_tech_loveabout 3 years ago
”As members see it, a person born with male privilege can no more shed it through surgery than a white person can claim an African-American identity simply by darkening his or her skin.” Gotta admit I find it hard to disagree with this, even if I usually disagree with extremist ideological groups.
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benmmurphyabout 3 years ago
i think the more interesting questions are what is a women when adjudicating a rule involving who is a woman. it may even make sense to have multiple definitions of who a woman is depending on the rule. for example i don&#x27;t think it makes sense for people who were previously men to compete in women sports when one of the main reasons for segregating women&#x27;s sport is to protect them from competition from men who are biologically better at these sports. but that doesn&#x27;t mean the same person should be excluded from being considered a woman when deciding some other rule.<p>people also seem to deliberately be conflating sex and gender. clearly a lot of &#x27;rules&#x27; seem to be based on sex but then people will claim gender identity is fluid and then try to use gender identification to backdoor a rule that is based on sex.
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throwaway378037about 3 years ago
I don’t understand why this is being posted now, nor why it’s trending. There are far more up-to-date sources to be found. Human rights should not be a debate
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xupybdabout 3 years ago
Why does everyone need to control everyone else. Can we just live our lives and deal with everyone as individuals not as members of some other group?
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da39a3eeabout 3 years ago
I&#x27;ll just say that this issue has made me pretty upset and angry over the last few years. The idea that people, &quot;friends&quot; even, hate me because I choose (respectfully) to stick to the definition of &quot;woman&quot; that I learned as a child and which my education as a biologist confirmed was reasonable is an absurd fact about modern western societies.
cglongabout 3 years ago
(2014)
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jacobriisabout 3 years ago
Must everyone pretend that words cannot have more than one definition for just this word?<p>women (noun)<p>1) An adult female person 2) Whatever we say it means<p>Typically in context it&#x27;s not difficult to determine which definition people are using.
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water8about 3 years ago
People are confusing their psychological mind with their physical reality. You don’t just get to decide you’re a bird and be able to fly. Why do we debate this stuff? Instead of getting so offended stop Defineing yourself by something so insignificant
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thr407891about 3 years ago
What I don&#x27;t understand about the trans-in-sports issue is why there is never any discussion of transgender men (ie people born female who take testosterone and transition to male). Everything I have ever read suggests that there are just as many trans men as trans women, if not more, and yet trans male athletes seem rarely mentioned.<p>There was an interesting case in Texas that did involve a trans male wrestler [1]. Because of restrictions imposed by the state of Texas, high school athletes must compete with their birth sex. The wrestler in question takes testosterone, which naturally gives him a huge advantage over the women against he competes against, leading him to consecutive victories at the state championships. According to news coverage of the championships, he was booed after his victory, and a lawsuit was filed to try and stop him from competing at all.<p>And yet, if you believe that anyone with two X chromosomes is a woman, these victories were the correct outcome: the championship was a competition between two women. Sure, the hormones he takes give him an advantage, but they were prescribed by a doctor for a medical condition (gender dysphoria). If a women was very tall, a result of her biology (in other words, a medical condition), no one would object when she made the basketball team.<p>What if we generalize his case to more elite athletes? If you have a problem with a muscular, bearded, man with a military haircut demolishing cisgender women in high level competitions, then you do not agree that people with two X chromosomes should always compete, because this is what many trans men look like.<p>A more logical position might be that anyone with elevated testosterone shouldn&#x27;t compete with women, but then we have another problem, trans women often have lower testosterone than cis women [2]. So, if you object to cases like Lia Thomas&#x27;s, which I totally agree seems unfair from the media coverage, then this won&#x27;t work either.<p>It seems like the solution is pretty simple: in adult athletic competitions there should be two categories, women and &quot;open&quot;. Women is for people with two X chromosomes and testosterone in the female range, while open is for everyone else. There is one last difficulty, though. Androgens are one of the most potent athletic performance enhancers that we know of. So, if you sample elite female athletes it is almost guaranteed that many of them have higher than average testosterone. Some may even be intersex without realizing it. They would all have to compete with men, which would be awkward for them, and likely make them less competitive. But hey, if you think that a trans man with a beard demolishing high school girls in wrestling is unfair, then you ought to think that female athletes with high testosterone is also unfair, even when those athletes have had long careers winning against other women [3].<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;society&#x2F;2018&#x2F;feb&#x2F;25&#x2F;transgender-wrestler-mack-beggs-wins-texas-girls-title" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;society&#x2F;2018&#x2F;feb&#x2F;25&#x2F;transgender-...</a> [2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.sfaf.org&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;resources&#x2F;transfeminine-hormone-check-brochure-v2.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.sfaf.org&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;resources&#x2F;transfemin...</a> [3] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;sport&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2019&#x2F;feb&#x2F;18&#x2F;caster-semenya-testosterone-levels-female-sport-court" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;sport&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2019&#x2F;feb&#x2F;18&#x2F;caster-se...</a>
quantifiedabout 3 years ago
What are the hermaphrodites?
exikyutabout 3 years ago
This is throwing up a paywall URL. Any alternative links?
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azthabout 3 years ago
Quite simple: a person with XX chromosomes. Or are people starting to deny biology now?
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wandaabout 3 years ago
The mind of a person, in its authentic and self-aware form, has no gender. Any gender normative behaviour is imprinted by habit or selected by the subject by choice, because that&#x27;s how they choose to identify.<p>This person then has two options: to not mind what body they have, because it&#x27;s irrelevant to who they are; or to select to alter their body because they don&#x27;t like it, or prefer the aesthetic properties of another body enough to make the alterations.<p>Analogy: imagine everyone is born and given a car. All the cars are identical in speed, economy and safety, but differ in terms of status and social stigmas attached to the badge on the hood.<p>When they&#x27;re old enough to drive it, if they think philosophically about it, it&#x27;s irrelevant what brand the car is, provided that it works, and we&#x27;ll say for argument&#x27;s sake that all the cars work.<p>However, plenty of people would pay to change their Skoda or Honda for a Mercedes or Tesla badge, and vice versa. This is because the brands have acquired a series of associations in the public consciousness -- Mercedes is associated with prestige, wealth and luxury; Honda with reliability, value for money, fuel economy, and so on.<p>Some of these associations are deliberate results of marketing and design, and some (in particular negative connotations regarding the drivers) have been earned through what are essentially memes.<p>Many people jokingly stereotype Mercedes and BMW drivers as assholes, and others stereotype drivers of Japanese or Korean cars as poor -- because they&#x27;re not in a German luxury car, not because the Japanese and Korean manufacturers don&#x27;t make expensive luxury cars.<p>Let&#x27;s get back to bodies. Since you cannot currently swap your body for another one, and since it has yet to be determined conclusively that there is a neat Cartesian division between mind and body (evidence suggests that the contrary is true, and that the line between mind and body is pretty blurry), people must resort to paying for modifications to their body to acquire the looks they want.<p>The aesthetic construct of the body is obviously tightly coupled to the modifier-type person&#x27;s sense of identity. It isn&#x27;t simply that they want to be more beautiful, they want to feel more beautiful, and they want beauty to be a defining characteristic.<p>This may stem from abuse in their developing years teaching them that their looks are coupled to their identity (<i>you&#x27;re ugly so you aren&#x27;t good enough to play with us</i>) or it may simply be their nature -- this debate is volatile, but more importantly it is irrelevant.<p>Why is it irrelevant? Because it doesn&#x27;t matter whether working to unwind the abuse to help people accept their natural body would reduce the popularity if plastic surgery or not, to try and make that judgement across the whole human race or indeed the subset that seeks out body alteration is both dangerous and not possible to do without misjudging someone. There are always outliers, people who get plastic surgery because they see no harm in it and just want something they see as an imperfection removed or corrected. And that&#x27;s okay, it&#x27;s every person&#x27;s choice and no one should be made to answer for their choices in life provided that they didn&#x27;t hurt anyone else in the process.<p>This simply covers cosmetic alteration, of course.<p>When coming to the question of gender re-assignment, it is not so much more complicated as it is more delicate. For starters, it&#x27;s a bigger change that enlarging breasts or straightening noses.<p>And while philosophically it makes no difference to the authentic, self-aware person&#x27;s mind, in reality it is the culmination of a decision in that person&#x27;s mind to change gender (which may not simply be a desire to look different, but rather a way to visibly manifest and perhaps even justify&#x2F;normalise their desire to behave in line with gender norms that oppose their biological gender.<p>Additionally, even if the person behaves no differently and just wanted to change for no apparent reason (for argument&#x27;s sake) it will have a far greater effect on how the rest of society will perceive that person compared to cosmetic enhancements.<p>Sure, people can be judgemental of others who get breast enlargement or nose correction, botox, whatever. But more people are likely to be <i>more</i> judgemental of people who change genders.<p>The very notion, while considerably more mainstream and accepted than even 20 years ago, is still likely to evoke intolerance and discomfort in a lot of people -- they have simply been taught by TV or direct experience that they have to be selective with whom they confide their feelings to.<p>The rudimentary answer to the question &quot;what is a woman?&quot; is a female human. And in a world where no one is judgemental, there is no historic prejudice, no patriarchal shaping of language and power, etc, this is all there would be.<p>But that&#x27;s not the world we live in.<p>We live in a world where women were historically treated by many cultures as inferior humans who were only necessary for the production of offspring and the performance of housekeeping. Where women who tried to prove that they were anything more were mocked, criticised, ostracised, abused or just killed.<p>We live in a world where man formed languages in direct reference&#x2F;deference to himself, and some of our languages even attach genders to certain objects.<p>We live in a world where a man is defined by his power, and a woman by her beauty and by how closely she matches whatever manifestations of the female gender archetype are en vogue. In other words, by her ability to attract a man.<p>Ultimately, the same primitivism that caused women to be sidelined as cooks and mothers lies embedded in the marketing machine that pumps out glistening glossy airbrushed idols and bombastic celebrities for women to emulate today.<p>The real danger of this, however, lies in the reaction. Women do not see through this ruse to make them buy perfume and eyeliner, instead they react the opposite way and try to emulate the male stereotype.<p>This is like Camus compared to to Heidegger. Heidegger says Sisyphus, keep bringing the rocks, it sucks but if you can&#x27;t accept that it sucks, you&#x27;re just deluding yourself and that&#x27;s no way to live. Camus says rebel, run away, fuck the rocks, rocks are whack.<p>My point is that a lot of feminists looked at Sisyphus&#x27;s wife getting her nails and think that carrying rocks is awesome because it&#x27;s not feminine, and then another wave of feminists come and see other feminists carrying rocks and decide that it&#x27;s better to embrace being feminine and go to get their nails done. And then you have your actual feminists who look at Sisyphus, his wife, and the other feminists and think how utterly absurd the whole picture is, and work to change the problems in society through literary criticism and post-structuralist psychoanalysis.<p>The reason why people have problems with gender re-assignment is that they have thousands of years of history and opinions making them make emotional and thus bad judgements about the whole situation, and most importantly, not thinking critically about why they are making those judgements. They&#x27;re just on autopilot.<p>What is a woman? A woman is a female human. What is a female human? A human with a female body.
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graevyabout 3 years ago
&gt; But, if that’s true, why would men demote themselves to womanhood? For reasons of sexual fetishism, says Jeffreys<p>i just looked up some stats on trans death. it was hard to get a good international life expectancy source; most seem to peg it at about 32-40, or half the general population&#x27;s. i did definitively find that 2 in 5 living american trans people self-report attempted suicide. must be quite the fetish, Sheila.<p>the paradox of tolerance: tolerating bigotry replaces your alienated userbase with bigots until it stops couching itself in virtuous newyorker articles.
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