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Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

1191 pointsby razinabout 3 years ago

66 comments

outlaceabout 3 years ago
I used to be against standardized tests, but I grew up as a low-income minority in a single-parent household and I ended up getting into good schools pretty much only due to my high test scores, which has been a life changer. Other than test scores, I couldn't afford to do any fancy extra-curriculars. It felt a lot more achievable to know I can change my life if I just focus and do well on a test than it would if I had to somehow do a bunch of random things to look competitive on paper.
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femiagbabiakaabout 3 years ago
Definitely for the best. Standardized testing was pretty much the only reason I and many other working class folks I know could get into good schools -- I was never going to do a million side activities, and my summers were spent working, not building my academic resume.<p>Of course the real tragedy is that we fixate so much on college, even prestigious ones, at all given how unnecessary they are for making people into productive and happy human beings. This change is significant but affects less than one percent of the population each year..
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tomkat0789about 3 years ago
I hated taking the SAT&#x2F;ACT, but holy cow are we in the US in a better situation than Chinese students dealing with the Gaokao. A Chinese pen-pal once showed me some calculus problems from the Gaokao and the example I saw (a bunch of integrals) looked like a math test a sadist would create: long, complicated expressions just for the sake of complexity, &quot;ugly&quot; numbers that turned into messy fractions you have to carry around. I (a graduate engineering student at the time) couldn&#x27;t identify any trick or educational point to the complexity, only the malice of the people giving the test.<p>EDIT: wording
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notacowardabout 3 years ago
This is just so beautifully written it brings a tear to my eye. It explains their rationale, points to evidence, acknowledges shortcomings or gaps in knowledge, and shows empathy for those affected. Worth reading just for its pedagogical value, plus it&#x27;s on an important topic near and dear to many hearts.
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opportuneabout 3 years ago
I am so happy to see this.<p>I went to high school in a bit of a backwater in the US. People don’t really go to selective colleges or care much about applying. It was only doing very well on standardized tests and spending time on the internet looking for info about colleges that led me to believe I could go to one of these places. I got into several and attended one, and I believe it greatly positively changed my life. (For the record, I had more going for me than just tests, but having a more objective way to compare myself to people across the country was very helpful, since I could easily attribute things to my area being backwards).<p>Removing admission tests was a huge slap in the face to social mobility out of the middle class. To reiterate other commenters, admission tests are the hardest part of the process to game and the least biased towards things like having a tiger parent, while being the most predictive indicator of success in college. Wealthy and well connected people can easily game extracurriculars and essays, and HS grades are vastly inflated at this point across the country. That pretty much only leaves standardized tests for your average kid who isn’t being deliberately primed by their environment to stand out for selective college admissions.<p>I hope more colleges are brave enough to reinstitute standardized test requirements. I know they want to do “class building” by hitting minimum representations across many groups (including legacy, but I don’t think that’s as big at MIT), and not requiring test scores makes it easier, but for institutions to keep up high standards and continue to give opportunities to kids, I really think it’s most beneficial to require scores.
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lightupabout 3 years ago
My son found out 2 days ago he didn&#x27;t get accepted to his in-state land grant public university. The University of Minnesota. This was his fall back plan. Now he&#x27;s screwed and may not be able to start college in fall.<p>His sins: - a 35 ACT score (legit with no studying or ACT prep classes) - a 3.8 weighted GPA (because he took multiple AP classes and actually was in college for his junior and senior years through Minnesota&#x27;s PSEO program) - leader on robotics team - lettered in 2 extra curriculars - etc etc<p>Why? Because U of MN doesn&#x27;t consider weighted grades nor do they accept test scores anymore. So why even try hard?<p>The only upside is that we weren&#x27;t stupid enough to put his college savings in a 529 tied to MN. We would be superscrewed if we&#x27;d done that.<p>35,000 applicants. 7,000 freshman admissions. My kid not even in top 1&#x2F;5 of applicaents? Complete BS.<p>EDITs: 2021 UMN Twin Cities admission stats: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;admissions.tc.umn.edu&#x2F;competitive-admission-rate" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;admissions.tc.umn.edu&#x2F;competitive-admission-rate</a> (20%)<p>MN 529 plan 20 years ago was MN-only from what I remember. Honestly don&#x27;t care.<p>[redacted] is &quot;okay&quot; school for CSci. However they have a 120MM budget and are facing 15MM shortfall for the college that hosts it. Out of state tuition for this school is 20k per year with max scholarships.
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vmceptionabout 3 years ago
Major factor reduced to a bullet point: they acknowledge the existence of other testing and evaluation frameworks, but that those are even worse distributed in socioeconomic access than the SAT<p>Thats pragmatic, and sobering, since people hoping for more diverse representation in admissions are faulting the SAT pipeline itself (access to study prep, study materials, wording of questions in the test) but the known alternatives are more niche exacerbating the outcome
rayinerabout 3 years ago
I don&#x27;t think people appreciate the radical nature of the attacks on standardized testing. Standardized tests have been critical to higher education and the professions for almost a century. Virtually everyone in an elite academic, government, scientific, legal, medical, or financial role attained that role based, in part, on the SAT and similar exams like the LSAT or MCAT. Not only them, but everyone who taught and mentored them, and everyone who taught and mentored those people. If the SAT is not predictive, as some claim, we&#x27;ve been selecting our elites and professionals the wrong way for three generations.
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ecshaferabout 3 years ago
College Admissions in the US is broken. This is a great move at restoring normalcy though. The SAT or ACT are the best thing for leveling the playing field between the rich and the poor. If anything I would like to see more reliance on this.<p>If I had my way the US would model the college admissions process on the Chinese Gao Kao. Have everyone take the the exam, have students list their preference for university, then sort from top ranked to the bottom ranked filling open positions at universities. This is fair, the only bias is ability, and it removes all legacy, wealth and athletics factors.
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Animatsabout 3 years ago
<i>All MIT students, regardless of intended major, must pass two semesters of calculus, plus two semesters of calculus-based physics, as part of our General Institute Requirements. ... There is no path through MIT that does not rest on a rigorous foundation in mathematics, and we need to be sure our students are ready for that as soon as they arrive. </i><p>For a period in the 1980s-1990s, you could argue that calculus was not essential in computer science. It was all discrete math for a while. But then came machine learning, and it&#x27;s all about hill climbing and gradients now.
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bluenose69about 3 years ago
Footnote 21 (containing &quot;<i>the most important components to demonstrate academic readiness in the absence of SAT&#x2F;ACT scores would be other standardized exams</i>&quot;) is quite telling.
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lucidbeeabout 3 years ago
I was a crappy student in HS and the only good thing about me was my SAT scores. They got me into a good school. I ended up as a highly ranked engineer at Microsoft. My heart sank when people started not using the SAT. I hope this becomes a trend.<p>I have also read that it is really really hard to show that tutoring pays off for the SAT. I think the SAT is the fairest part of the admissions package.
QuikAccountabout 3 years ago
My problem with SAT&#x2F;ACT actually has nothing to do with the test itself. I grew up very poor in suburban middle of nowhere and even with a waiver for the fee, I had no way of actually getting to a testing center. Parents worked 24&#x2F;7 to make ends meet, no real public transport and this was before Uber and Lyft. The real culprit here is the lack of public infrastructure.
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8bitsruleabout 3 years ago
My brother-in-law was ill-prepared for technical coursework because he had no choice but to attend a shitty (undemanding, backwoods, rubber-stamp) high school in Minnesota. He got talked into vo-tech training for transmission repair.<p>Years later, his weaknesses were evaluated at a Community College. He went to work on a one-year remedial skills plan. Then he was admitted to a state University. Four years later got a chemistry degree with honors. IMO it&#x27;s likely he&#x27;d have succeeded at MIT as well. The man was a born techie.<p>Moral: shitty schools are everybody&#x27;s loss. And we&#x27;ve continued to <i>lose a lot</i> because some of them are <i>designed that way</i>. Slyly, deliberately, officially sanctioned sly.
ralmidaniabout 3 years ago
I would like to know how much of an “improvement” in outcomes these tests bring.<p>From another article linked in the one from this discussion:<p>“In short: Our research has shown that, in most cases, we cannot reliably predict students will do well at MIT unless we consider standardized test results alongside grades, coursework, and other factors. These findings are statistically robust and stable over time, and hold when you control for socioeconomic factors and look across demographic groups. And the math component of the testing turns out to be most important.”<p>There seems to be a lot of hand-waving in that quote.<p>If the improvement is only marginal, we really need to ask, as a society, if the improvement is worth all the money, potential for cheating, angst, and outright conflict that come with maintaining these tests.<p>If we want better talent, we can invest more money and energy into building better schools and paying better salaries to teachers. If we want more diversity, we can target vulnerable communities specifically.<p>The test prep industry is milking families that care about (and might even be obsessed with) education. It encourages folks to think of the whole system as a rat race, and leads to selfishness and hoarding of knowledge.<p>If we did away with standardized testing and spent more money on schools and teachers, we could cultivate a perception of education as a public good. It would be less about who has more resources and more about raising the tide and giving more people a fair shot.
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diebeforei485about 3 years ago
Kudos. SAT Prep is freely available online at places like Khan Academy. Extracurriculars, not so much.
ShaveTheTurtlesabout 3 years ago
A lot of folks focus on act&#x2F;sat scores when talking about diversity when really these ivy league schools shouldn&#x27;t have an express lane for legacy entrants. If you are trying to be different than how it was previously, how can you expect that to happen when you give preference to folks that benefited previously?
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WalterBrightabout 3 years ago
&gt; I understand that this announcement may dismay some readers for whom the tests can be a source of stress.<p>Bluntly, if one can&#x27;t handle the stress of the SAT, then the stress of exams at a university like MIT is going to be overwhelming.<p>Exam week at Caltech was called &quot;compression&quot;, and after the exams was &quot;decompression&quot;. The moniker is not a joke.
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peter303about 3 years ago
MIT grad here. The achievement tests are more of a counter-indicator If you score under 700 on either test, you probably cant handle the coursework. The tests only test a 10th grade level.<p>I likely would not get into MIT this decade this decade with my test score 1480.
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Strilancabout 3 years ago
I was kind of hoping that the inline citations would lead to how they reached their conclusions. But it&#x27;s just more &quot;our research shows&quot; conclusions without the meat underneath. Do they publish their methodology anywhere?<p>(It&#x27;s pretty funny that the first red highlight hover is explaining that you can hover over red highlights to see more information. The only people reading it are the ones who no longer need to be told.)
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grego61about 3 years ago
One way that rich parents can game SAT&#x2F;ACT is through aggressive seeking of test accommodations for disabilities. There was common knowledge of up to 50% of test takers having extended time in some affluent private schools in the SF Bay Area prior to the Covid pause.
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apayanabout 3 years ago
The implementation of footnotes on the right side of the screen is really cool, and not something I&#x27;ve seen before. Such a cool idea. I think it would be interesting for news publications to try that out in articles as well. It could allow for brevity in the main article text, but still allow those who want to know the source of a statement&#x2F;fact or more detail the option to obtain it.
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TrinaryWorksTooabout 3 years ago
Buried in the details it says that MIT will be accepting anyone over a (presumably secret) threshold, not using it as a ranking tool as some people might indicate.
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WaitWaitWhaabout 3 years ago
To deal with socioeconomic issues in STEM, start early; very early like K-12.<p>In a vague fantasy world in the USA, I would reduce the Department of Education to a fraction, shift education to the States, take the best parts of the winning systems fom all States, and make Federal recommendations accordingly. Rinse, repeat.<p>I am saddened that most of the children I come across in first-world nations, lack the ability to rationally think through a real-world problem.
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icelancerabout 3 years ago
Quite surprising that they went back on their policy, but it&#x27;s a welcome change. Removing standardized tests and replacing them with more subjective methods necessarily reduces outcomes surrounding academic excellence, and almost always exacerbates socioeconomic&#x2F;racial inequity (with a strong anti-Asian bias, as shown in almost all studies when test scores are blinded&#x2F;dropped).
smsm42about 3 years ago
I understand their reason for suspending SAT was COVID-19:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mitadmissions.org&#x2F;blogs&#x2F;entry&#x2F;we-are-suspending-our-sat-act-requirement-for-the-2020-2021-application-cycle&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mitadmissions.org&#x2F;blogs&#x2F;entry&#x2F;we-are-suspending-our-...</a><p>so it makes sense with the removal of most COVID limitations they will also go back to the old system?
rafaleabout 3 years ago
Unpopular opinion: SAT&#x2F;ACT correlates with X where X = IQ × work ethic
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gumbyabout 3 years ago
This would have been good news for me were I planning to apply today. I got very poor grades in high school and if they had ranked the students or calculated a gpa I doubt anyone would have looked at my application at all.<p>I’m really glad to see this part; I hope it’s true:<p>&gt; At the same time, standardized tests also help us identify academically prepared, socioeconomically disadvantaged students who could not otherwise demonstrate readiness<p>When I was at MIT I felt that the institute was working hard on this area and took it seriously (for undergrads at least), though how well I could not tell — I was most definitely not of any cohort that deserved <i>any</i> special treatment.
0000011111about 3 years ago
My dyslexia is so bad that these types of tests were&#x2F;are a total barrier to entry for me and folks like myself.<p>Fortunately, tech is one high-paying industry where an IT degree from a great university and certifications are not required to get a job making good money. I was able to learn system administration - network engineering at the community college and use online resources.<p>If there is one positive is that MIT has a very small undergraduate class so the impact will be minimal across the global cohorts of future college students. Perhaps perspective students will stop applying to that school and focus their application strategy on schools that do not have this requirement.
ok123456about 3 years ago
This explanation could have benefited from histograms showing the distribution of grades pre-and-post making the test optional, and then showing statistical tests that the null-hypothesis, that the grades are the same, could be rejected.
TimPCabout 3 years ago
The SAT being a help to low-income students shows how messed up the US high school system is. Normally standardized tests hurt low-income students because they require extra-curricular resources to do well on. In the US they hurt poor students less because the GPA system is so badly broken. AP courses are not offered in the poorest schools but offer such large bonuses to GPA that a 4.0 GPA is considered very poor for applying to university. A student can literally have a perfect GPA in the best courses offered by their school and be considered a very poor applicant academically.
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bradwschillerabout 3 years ago
It&#x27;s clear the SAT&#x2F;ACT has predictive power for highly-selective colleges, such as MIT. And therefore, they are valuable for these colleges – especially for the Math scores as MIT suggests. The value of SAT&#x2F;ACT scores decreases as selectivity decreases or as math abilities matter less for admission (e.g., liberal arts programs).<p>Here are some related points:<p>- Harvard considers roughly 4 in 5 applicants to be academically capable of doing the work at Harvard (about 50,000 applicants of which Harvard only accepts 2,000). This data is pulled from their court documents, and my team wrote about it here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;writingcenter.prompt.com&#x2F;posts&#x2F;strong-essays-increase-admissions-chances-by-up-to-10-times" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;writingcenter.prompt.com&#x2F;posts&#x2F;strong-essays-increas...</a>.<p>- This means that most applicants at highly-selective colleges are very similar academically. Colleges are mostly just using grades, academic rigor, and test scores to determine whether the student will be able to succeed doing the work in college. Absent other information on academic preparation (e.g., not having access to AP&#x2F;IB classes), the SAT&#x2F;ACT score can be a critical signal of whether the student can do the work. Students with well-above-the-bar academics are admitted at a 3x clip to those just above the academic bar. But other parts of the application (e.g., essays, athletics) can have a much stronger effect on admissions chances (e.g., a strong personal score, much of which is essay-related, can have a 10x increase on admissions chances).<p>- Math SAT really is highly predictive of math abilities. When I was with McKinsey, we asked for applicants&#x27; SAT scores because it was highly predictive of people succeeding at McKinsey. People hired with scores below 700 struggled to succeed analytically. So, McKinsey used 700 as a bar. MIT is roughly doing the same thing here. Other colleges do this as well.<p>- Outside of highly-selective institutions, the SAT&#x2F;ACT can have less predictive power in student success in college than other factors (e.g., GPA). There are a bunch of great analyses at fairtest.org that looks at these exams - e.g., breaking scores down by race.<p>So overall, we tend to give weight to what we know and what data we&#x27;re looking at. Most of the SAT&#x2F;ACT analyses out there are looking across all students. Here, MIT is looking at just their proportion of students. So, both things can be true – the SAT&#x2F;ACT may not be a useful predictor for the vast majority of students. But scores can (and do) matter for the highest performers, the approximately 1% of high school graduates attending the most selective colleges.<p>And as MIT states, a perfect SAT&#x2F;ACT score doesn&#x27;t matter all that much. All they&#x27;re using the scores for is to provide an indication of whether the student is above their bar for being able to do the work (e.g., not failing multivariable calculus).<p>Note: I did go to MIT – some of you may think this is relevant. I also run the largest college essay coaching company globally, Prompt.com. So I&#x27;ve spent a lot of time understanding college admissions.
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jackblemmingabout 3 years ago
Have they considered trying leetcode instead? It seems to work for FANG.
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red_admiralabout 3 years ago
The 1k+ comment count speaks for itself, but it&#x27;s hard to overstate the importance of this decision. Maybe the wind has changed on some very lofty peaks.<p>My opinion has always been that the SAT&#x2F;ACT is the best method we currently have to achieve any reasonable goals that you might have for an admissions process, with one possible exception. In fact the SAT&#x2F;ACT looks to me like a better method to achieve the aims that the anti-SAT faction claims they&#x27;re fighting for, than any other method on the table, again with one exception. As such I&#x27;m delighted with this decision.<p>(Sure, you could spend a lot of time and money designing a test that&#x27;s even better calibrated than the SAT&#x2F;ACT, and then switch to that. Until you&#x27;ve done that, I&#x27;m in favour of sticking with the SAT&#x2F;ACT.)<p>The one exception is if you want a quota-based affirmative action program (or, to be more precise, a back door to get around the legal ban on an openly quota-based admissions system in the US). It is possible for two people to disagree on whether this is a good thing while both of them remain decent human beings, as far as I&#x27;m concerned.
spoonjimabout 3 years ago
MIT stepping back from the insanity of the Current Thing. Will anyone else follow?
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tonyhanabout 3 years ago
Well, in Canada we don’t have standardized exam like ACT and SAT but we do have provincial exams that account for 20% of your grade in major courses from Gr 10 to 12.<p>I didn’t do fancy extra curriculars. I merely joined student council to organize events, started an announcement club (just me reading a school events over the PA), and didn’t do any sports (but did music and band). None of these are costly.<p>I think the truth is you need to look at a diverse rage of factors. If someone is not into sports, let’s look at what else they did. If grades are high, why do they need to engage in other extracurricular?<p>Obviously, the motive is different. Students want education to find what they want to do or gain skills, reps and network to find a job that pays descent.<p>Universities however look at other criteria - % alumni finding a job, average alumni pay, etc.<p>What we do should ultimately help the students achieve what they want while balancing the motives for universities.
karthickgururajabout 3 years ago
The question is, should a university a. maximize for absolute value of success of its alums (for some definition of &quot;success&quot;), or b. maximize for the value it adds to the student (and hence the society) by considering the <i>difference</i> in the said measure as a result of the student joining the univ.<p>(a) is easier to measure and optimize for. But it will select for students who will do well in later life - irrespective of what the univ has to offer. The univ&#x27;s entrance criteria will exhibit this bias. Of course, some biases can be explicitly countered - by having a quota system for those with less privilege. But in each of those subsets, the univ still tries to maximize for absolute success of the individual.<p>(b) is harder to measure - as it seeks to quantify the portion of individual&#x27;s success that can be attributed to the univ specifically.
PaulHouleabout 3 years ago
I would point to<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Jim_Webb" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Jim_Webb</a><p>as somebody who came from an underprivileged background, showed talent in standardized testing and had an outstanding career as a military officer, author and politician.
jordanpgabout 3 years ago
Part of the problem I see with standardized testing is that the stakes are so high. Some fraction of the people out there just get nervous or have a bad day. Nothing about these high pressure situations really reflects anything important in the real world.<p>I&#x27;m a law student now. In law school, your entire grade usually comes from one 3-4 hour essay exam. Much depends on luck, how well you slept the night before, and how frantically you can type. It&#x27;s absurd. It&#x27;s been that way for some 100 years.<p>I&#x27;ve always been able to play ball with standardized, timed exams, but I have had enough exposure to neuro-diversity that I can empathize with many. I just wish there was a way to de-stress these kinds of exams somehow. I don&#x27;t know the solution, but I think it would answer of a lot of objections to them.
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myleabout 3 years ago
Just two hours ago, there was a very engaging talk from Daskalakis, a professor at CSAIL at MIT, that is very related to the topic:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;9sePKcQnrXE" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;9sePKcQnrXE</a><p>The research he talks about includes college admissions.
xyzzy_plughabout 3 years ago
Many Americans in the comments here acknowledge that the admissions system in the United States is broken and prejudiced, and then continue on to celebrate what is otherwise a band-aid for a systemic disorder.<p>To me, standardized tests like the SAT scream &quot;our education is so inconsistent across our country that instead of attempting to improve it we simply ignore it and focus on an entirely different artifact.&quot;<p>Standardized tests are good for one thing: measuring how good examinees are at taking standardized tests.<p>Shouldn&#x27;t a dataset collected over four years be more thorough and representative of a prospective student&#x27;s capability of successfully navigating what is usually a four year undergraduate program?<p>After all, the purpose of a system is what it does.
eruciabout 3 years ago
Score back to 1 for merit based admissions, 0 for politics of the day.
tomohawkabout 3 years ago
A long time ago, there used to be standardized tests for all sorts of things. These allowed people of all backgrounds to pursue career paths in many industries, without requiring the time and money involved in getting a college degree.<p>They were sued into oblivion because of what we now call equity. The pernicious idea that if equality of outcome is not observed, then it must be due to racism.<p>The industries that used these ended up de-risking by just requiring college degrees.<p>Guess who suffered the most?
jounkerabout 3 years ago
One of the things the SAT appears to actually measure is income. More specifically it measures access to expensive preparatory courses, which is a good proxy for income.<p>This American Life has an excellent show discussion the SAT: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thisamericanlife.org&#x2F;734&#x2F;the-campus-tour-has-been-cancelled" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thisamericanlife.org&#x2F;734&#x2F;the-campus-tour-has-bee...</a>
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ken47about 3 years ago
I understand the audience here, but we don&#x27;t need more emphasis on iq. We need more emphasis on ethics. We already have the power to destroy ourselves many times over, and within a century, will likely be seeing AI that can best a human in any intellectual endeavor, by an order of magnitude. Ethics first, with some baseline level of intellect, will be the only way out of this impending disaster.
dom96about 3 years ago
As someone from the UK I am confused by this. What were they using to decide who to admit without SAT&#x2F;ACT tests?<p>In the UK all students pick at least 3 A levels at the end of their high school. Each degree and university then has different requirements like 3 As in Math, Physics, IT (with some alternative subjects) for Computer Science. So my understanding of SAT&#x2F;ACT testing is limited.
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unityByFreedomabout 3 years ago
In 2016 you could buy SAT scores in Asia. Does that still happen?<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reuters.com&#x2F;investigates&#x2F;special-report&#x2F;college-cheating-iowa&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reuters.com&#x2F;investigates&#x2F;special-report&#x2F;college-...</a>
neilvabout 3 years ago
What support did they give to newly-matriculated students who didn&#x27;t have better preparatory schools?<p>Or who weren&#x27;t already familiar with how to operate in a school like MIT?<p>Or who might need help assimilating into the culture?
fumeux_fumeabout 3 years ago
&quot;Our research can’t explain why these tests are so predictive of academic preparedness for MIT...&quot;<p>Because you&#x27;re selecting students who test well? Hilarious how clueless academia is about what they&#x27;re actually measuring here.
giardiniabout 3 years ago
I&#x27;m grateful for the SAT&#x2F;ACT being present when I was in high school(HS). Without it I might not have a decent education, mostly b&#x2F;c I was drifting along and paying little attention to life.<p>Junior year I had high PSAT scores and received letters from various universities expressing interest. Yet I hadn&#x27;t even <i>considered</i> what I would do after HS. I was amazed to see anyone expressing interest, decided it was a fluke and dropped it all in the trash.<p>Next year I scored high on the SAT and unexpectedly received multiple offers for full scholarships, room and board <i>et al</i> from universities. I asked around and realized my peers had been applying to colleges for months while I, the quintessential apostle of Lao Tzu (OK, I&#x27;m lazy!), had done absolutely nothing.<p>I hesitated to look a gift horse in the mouth, especially when there were several. I picked one and was off to college. My Dad was pleased to get off the hook for college costs, Mom was proud, but I mostly felt sorry for friends who had to work hard to get into university.<p>tl;dr: PSAT and SAT made getting into college easy for me and I am thankful.
zephrx1111about 3 years ago
The purpose of college admission should make sure that students sitting in the same room should have similar learning ability. Denying the existence of uneven learning ability in students only makes things worse.
lliamanderabout 3 years ago
&gt; Our research can’t explain why these tests are so predictive of academic preparedness for MIT<p>Can&#x27;t explain why an IQ test predicts success in cognitively demanding work?
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ffggvvabout 3 years ago
As a minority, i think those pushing for removing the SAT&#x2F;ACT are racist in that they think certain minorities cannot perform as well as others. The whole point is that the SAT is the only objective piece of an application that can be easily compared between applicants. They want to reduce to only subjective qualifications which they can easily manipulate to benefit groups they deem under-represented. Its the bigotry of low expectations.<p>Their problem isnt that the SAT can be gamed, its that it has an objective score which cant be manipulated to benefit who they deem worthy.
crackercrewsabout 3 years ago
Why is MIT Admissions on a domain other than MIT.edu?
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smokey_circlesabout 3 years ago
America deserves to go downhill if this seems like a good idea.<p>Standardized testing is a joke. There are other, better forms of tests. See: Europe
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newbie2020about 3 years ago
Seems like another “no shit” moment. Do these things even have to be considered? What is happening these days in education?
endisneighabout 3 years ago
Did a quick skim - did they release the data?<p>What does this mean:<p>&gt; when you control for socioeconomic factors that correlate with testing.<p>Which factors are these exactly?
jmoleabout 3 years ago
meta comment here, but I <i>love</i> the presentation of these interactive footnotes.
rg111about 3 years ago
&gt; <i>as a result, not having SATs&#x2F;ACT scores to consider tends to raise socioeconomic barriers to demonstrating readiness for our education</i><p>It all come down to me to what this point touches.<p>When you have a test, you have something definite to prepare for. Even if you do not have dedicated mentors or well-wishing, caring teachers, you simply <i>know</i> there is a test that significantly improves your chances for MIT.<p>When you don&#x27;t have a test, you have to study all the year round, do all homeworks, be active members of math, chess, or debate club all the year round and win at least province-level competitions, play an instrument at the school band, be elected the class monitor, create social equity clubs, do social service and so on.<p>Which path do you think will be easier for someone from an impoverished, troubled background?<p>Is it easier to prepare for a test for three months or be a whole different person severely constrained by your background?<p>Whom does no-test policies benefit? The rich White student living in a gated community, or a Black&#x2F;Hispanic person living in slum-like condition?<p>____<p>I have little first hand experience (was born in a middle-of-nowhere small town, but wasn’t truly poor), and a lot of second-hand experience. I know a lot of friends, acquaintances who moved up the socio-economic ladder just because test-score based admission policies existed.<p>The people who promote no-test policies are deluded ivory-tower dwellers detached from reality.
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paulpauperabout 3 years ago
<i>our ability to accurately predict student academic success at MIT 02 Our research shows this predictive validity holds even when you control for socioeconomic factors that correlate with testing. It also shows that good grades in high school do not themselves necessarily translate to academic success at MIT if you cannot account for testing. Of course, we can never be fully certain how any given applicant will do: we&#x27;re predicting the development of people, not the movement of planets, and people always surprise you. However, our research does help us establish bands of confidence that hold true in the aggregate, while allowing us, as admissions officers, to exercise individual contextual discretion in each case. The word &#x27;significantly&#x27; in this bullet point is accurate both statistically and idiomatically.is significantly improved by considering standardized testing — especially in mathematics — alongside other factors</i><p>So much for that common, popular notion that standardized tests do not predict anything of value.
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fsckboyabout 3 years ago
as an MIT alum, a wealthy one who thought he would leave his fortune to MIT, I applaud this move, but it doesn&#x27;t get me back to giving.<p>MIT shouldn&#x27;t have stopped requiring the tests in the first place, shouldn&#x27;t have participated in that anti-intellectual &quot;shut down tech&quot; day or whatever that was, and shouldn&#x27;t have done a dozen other things like cancel speakers to bow to a woke mob.<p>MIT needs to sign up to the Chicago principles on free speech <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;provost.uchicago.edu&#x2F;sites&#x2F;default&#x2F;files&#x2F;documents&#x2F;reports&#x2F;FOECommitteeReport.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;provost.uchicago.edu&#x2F;sites&#x2F;default&#x2F;files&#x2F;documents&#x2F;r...</a><p>and MIT needs to stop writing stuff like this (from TFA):<p><i>Our research can’t explain why these tests are so predictive of academic preparedness for MIT, but we believe it is likely related to the centrality of mathematics — and mathematics examinations — in our education.</i><p>IQ science is well established, and it is well known that the SAT is an IQ test, plain and simple. To pretend otherwise is to dissemble, to be anti-science. Hopefully, MIT will save itself, but I&#x27;m sadly not expecting miracles.
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artful-hackerabout 3 years ago
SAT scores correlate with IQ test scores. SAT is just a &#x27;legal&#x27; thinly veiled version of IQ test.
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slackfanabout 3 years ago
Good.
armchairhackerabout 3 years ago
I’m genuinely curious about the advantages of going to MIT or any other super competitive CS college for undergrad instead of say, UMass or another less-competitive CS university.<p>From limited knowledge and experience at other colleges (all pretty well-ranked but not as well as MIT), it’s the prestige and graduate research which makes colleges like MIT superior. Otherwise, for most undergrads it’s like a typical college experience, but with harder courses and smarter peers, but even that is flexible (since they have access to graduate students and grad-level courses).<p>It’s particularly relevant today because apparently college admissions are really competitive. A lot of high schoolers are upset because they got rejected from everything but their safeties, except their safeties are like Georgia Tech, Rutgers or the UCs.
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tedmistonabout 3 years ago
It&#x27;s very difficult to read a webpage with huge red rectangles covering up so much of the text that it looks like a redacted document [1].<p>I imagine it must not look like this for everyone... ¯\_(ツ)_&#x2F;¯<p>Edit: It seems like this is an issue with the Dark Reader extension. Here&#x27;s an archived version that renders as expected [2].<p>I wish they&#x27;d used an existing popular tool like Hypothes.is [3] for annotations rather than rolling their own isolated system.<p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;imgur.com&#x2F;a&#x2F;jWkVFgd" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;imgur.com&#x2F;a&#x2F;jWkVFgd</a><p>[2]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.ph&#x2F;v1Rm1" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.ph&#x2F;v1Rm1</a><p>[3]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.hypothes.is&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.hypothes.is&#x2F;</a>
0x20cowboyabout 3 years ago
I grew up poor, and from my anecdotal experience people do better on the SAT if they &quot;are rich&quot;. You can also pay people to take the test for you.<p>Maybe it&#x27;s because they don&#x27;t have to spend their days worry about getting shot, stabbed or beaten to the ground by gangs. Maybe it&#x27;s because they get to eat every day. I guess, perhaps, they get more quality study time. Or, heck maybe you&#x27;re all right, random questions - your ability to regurgitate the points on the unit circle at will - indicates the level of education you are qualified to attempt. Thank goodness these tests will let you know what you are capable of.<p>To be fair, I tried to get into several universities (over the pandemic) to round out my self taught education, but I was rejected everywhere I applied. So, I guess for some people - tests or no tests - it doesn&#x27;t really matter. Apparently, I am too stupid to get an education. Good to know.<p>For anyone who is salty about this (I used to be quite angry about this and the &quot;Google style&quot; hiring process (which is essentially the same thing)), this realization helped me get over this:<p>_These tests are designed to filter out people like you. You have a qualities they do not want. That&#x27;s why they are used. The tests are working from their point of view. They wont stop using them. Your life will be much easier if you just accept it, let it go, and go do something else._
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