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The endgames of bad faith communication

482 pointsby Thersitesabout 3 years ago

56 comments

booboofixerabout 3 years ago
A well-written article, especially clearly listing out the differences in the forms of communication helped make the point. But sadly, the people most prone to bad-faith communication are also probably least likely to take this criticism and improve. I have also resorted to bad-faith communications in conversations where it seems like that is the only way to be heard.<p>Consider this example: Person A, displaying some humility, says : &quot;You might be right, there is a chance politician X is in the wrong&quot;. Person A assumes this is interpreted by Person B as: &quot;There is uncertainty about politician X being in the wrong&quot; Person B actually interprets this as: &quot;Person A has admitted, without any doubt, to politician X being completely in the wrong&quot;<p>If I ever find myself in a conversation where I&#x27;m in the shoes of Person A, using good-faith communication means actually risking a complete failure of communication. Why even bother to communicate?
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senguidevabout 3 years ago
Here&#x27;s an alternative ending: what if good faith communication was superior to bad faith in a systemic way ?<p>Clues:<p>- at a personal level: have you ever tried to put in practice &quot;highly skilled, non-naive good faith communication&quot; ? If you did, you&#x27;ve probably noted that more often than not, it doesn&#x27;t make you weaker. It increases your value, your status, even your financial success. So maybe this could also be a contagious&#x2F;unstoppable strategy simply because it has an edge for personal success ?<p>- as an organization: good faith leadership, good faith communication... seem to overall be a competitive advantage because it goes hand-in-hand with happy &amp; productive people<p>- as a society: democracy emerged despite a world of tyrants to take over most a the world. Why ? Maybe because it was stronger in a systemic way ? It unlocks collaboration, decentralization, resilience... Moreover, it doesn&#x27;t sound unreasonable that democracy would be fittest as poverty diminishes. So maybe authoritarianism, not democracy, is in danger of extinction in the end ?<p>Result: instead of spiraling bad faith, maybe we will have (though slower) spiraling good faith ? Maybe &quot;good faith&quot; will win simply because it&#x27;s stronger, in a kind of evolutionary sense.<p>This has implications in everyday life : practicing &quot;highly skilled, non-naive good faith communication&quot; may be the best way to personal success. And this may also be the best way to incidentally induce a &quot;good faith&quot; society
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tux1968about 3 years ago
It would be great for people who desire good faith communication to call out people who are resorting to bad faith techniques. Especially, and most importantly, when those bad actors are of the same political stripe.<p>It&#x27;s impossible for those bad actors to hear criticism from &quot;the enemy&quot;. Only people who share a position of almost total fundamental agreement, can maybe be heard in any criticism of how to better deal with the opposition.<p>TLDR: We should be most aggressive and loud in criticism of those we agree with most.
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rhakswabout 3 years ago
To say nothing of communication issues caused by social media users themselves, the platforms can have <i>built-in</i> miscommunication. For example, on reddit your removed comments are shown to you as if they are live, as shown here [1]. You can try it yourself in r&#x2F;CantSayAnything [2].<p>You can be having a conversation with someone that suddenly stops because a 3rd party removed the last reply. Often, neither of the speakers is aware this happened, making it appear to each as if the other ghosted the discussion.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.imgur.com&#x2F;E3bFvKh.png" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.imgur.com&#x2F;E3bFvKh.png</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;CantSayAnything" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;CantSayAnything</a>
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alwaysdoitabout 3 years ago
I am a pretty big advocate for good faith communication and think the article is right that it is necessary. The thing that disheartens me though, is the asymmetric nature of the problem: good faith communication is hard. It takes time and patience. Bad faith communication is easy. You can write 20 bad faith drive by comments in the time it takes to post one thoughtful reply. And due to the wide open nature of most of these platforms you&#x27;re rarely interacting with the same person twice. So it&#x27;s hard not to feel that that effort is entirely going to waste.
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Nowadoabout 3 years ago
Article doesn&#x27;t move us forward even an inch.<p>If the solution was providing people with a list of bad faith tactics we would have been done with it at least twice by now: first when Socrates was arguing with Sophists 2500 years ago and another time when Schopenhauer wrote Eristic <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;The_Art_of_Being_Right" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;The_Art_of_Being_Right</a>. And before you think &#x27;maybe someone doesn&#x27;t know yet&#x27;: yes, you are correct. Someone doesn&#x27;t know. We tried telling everyone before and just trying harder doesn&#x27;t seem to cut it.<p>What, I&#x27;d argue, would be at least a tiny step forward would be thinking in terms of games people play, rewards they seek and maybe even monetization of systems. Thinking of people who argue in &#x27;bad faith&#x27; as being mostly plain wrong is naive and somewhat offensive. Talk to your PR department every now and then, some of them are smart and know what they&#x27;re doing. Same for Twitter discourse and all else.<p>Telling people (or yourself) to make better communities ignores costs involved in managing that community. Can you afford onboarding of even telling people that cute list of bad faith tactics? Can you do it faster than a place that doesn&#x27;t do it? Can you achieve retention higher than love bombarding communities?<p>No. No, you can&#x27;t.<p>Not with current tooling at least. Not to push own products&#x2F;services (today!), here are some angles that seem achievably hard, yet somewhat underdeveloped: good faith arguments are more time expensive - it can be cut into pieces&#x2F;redesigned to give them more chance; both wrong and correct ways of thinking about specific problems are actually very limited in numbers - maintaining searchable database of them to reuse should dramatically speed up &#x27;getting through&#x27;; false positives in ostracism are unnoticed - layered moderation that provides feedback on initial misjudgment can noticeably improve the space: not so much retention (that numbers would be small), but limit echo chamber by avoiding rituals of cancellation - without increasing costs as much as having &#x27;full conversation&#x27; with everyone before banning would.
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rolandogabout 3 years ago
I hadn&#x27;t heard about steelmanning [0], and it was definitely a pleasant thing to learn about.<p>&gt; <i>A steel man argument (or steelmanning) is the opposite of a straw man argument. The idea is to help one&#x27;s opponent to construct the strongest form of their argument. This may involve removing flawed assumptions that could be easily refuted, for example, so that one produces the best argument for the &quot;core&quot; of one&#x27;s opponent&#x27;s position. It has been advocated as a more productive strategy in political dialog that promotes real understanding and compromise instead of fueling partisanship by discussing only the weakest arguments of the opposition.</i><p>[0]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Straw_man#Steelmanning" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Straw_man#Steelmanning</a>
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thedudeabides5about 3 years ago
The end game of bad faith communication is that noise begins to dominate the channel.<p>Humans, reacting to this degradation in signal rely less and less on channels that are dominated by noise.<p>This opens up opportunities for technology to build new channels, which accumulate users, engagement and momentum by supporting good faith communication (truth).<p>Thus the cycle continues.
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lucidbeeabout 3 years ago
I have realized when browsing some twitter culture war exchanges that people almost never respond to the opposing party&#x27;s arguments. They imagine a set of arguments that uses some of the same words and then argue with that. This type of exchange never results in agreement -- or even the exchange of information! It&#x27;s unhinged from any communicative act. It&#x27;s merely inflammatory.<p>I do think this is extremely problematic in the long run.
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rectangabout 3 years ago
&gt; <i>many still assert that it is actually unethical to engage &quot;the other side&quot; in good faith.</i><p>Not everybody on &quot;the other side&quot; is communicating in bad faith, <i>but some are</i>. (Same with &quot;your own side&quot;.) When someone is communicating in bad faith, I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s &quot;unethical&quot; to engage them in good faith, I think it&#x27;s <i>foolhardy</i>.<p>Don&#x27;t feed the trolls. For dog&#x27;s sake don&#x27;t assume you can change the trolls.<p>One of the HN guidelines is &quot;assume good faith&quot;. But many arguments presented here are made in bad faith. There are certain topics which in my view, cannot be intelligently discussed on HN because you are not allowed to assume bad faith.<p>What&#x27;s missing from this article is how to protect yourself from bad faith actors.<p>(I&#x27;ve deliberately written this so that it could apply to &quot;either side&quot;. Take that as an attempt to engage in good faith.)
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ohwellhereabout 3 years ago
I find myself really inspired by the work The Consilience Project and a few other people are putting out about sensemaking, consensus building, and maybe generally empathy.<p>I&#x27;ve started to feel that it might be my answer to &quot;The Hamming Question.&quot; [0]<p>I&#x27;m a burnt out software engineer. Do you have any advice on careers to explore to work on the above societal issue?<p>[0]: &gt; Mathematician Richard Hamming used to ask scientists in other fields &quot;What are the most important problems in your field?&quot; partly so he could troll them by asking &quot;Why aren&#x27;t you working on them?&quot; and partly because getting asked this question is really useful for focusing people&#x27;s attention on what matters.
sagonarabout 3 years ago
I think that most social media is increasing the power of bad faith compared to good faith actors. Normal perspective versus an extreme perspective then I fear that the more normal perspective people often has a more diverse situation with many other sources and influences.<p>A less extreme person arguing in good faith probably has many other things in his&#x2F;her life to worry about, like children&#x2F;parents&#x2F;work&#x2F;neighbours etc.<p>While bad faith actors often have much less distractions, and can more easily afford to just keep the point going. I think a bad faith actor will relative easy force out more moderate&#x2F;normal people out of the forum or conversation thread. Why keep going, if you got a family and work and .. to take cary about, and arguing in good faith will be hard to get anywhere good ?<p>I think this give a much bigger loudspeaker to people with more extrem views, and help shut up people with more moderate positions. I suspect the the setup of social media and the tools they use, and the tools within forums influence this.<p>Engagement is probably increased if such extreme versus moderate is argued, and I think the more extreme position win is likely increasing income for social media.
trtqyabout 3 years ago
One of the most important parts of the article is a footnote:<p><i>NOTE: All signs of good faith communication can be &quot;faked&quot; in bad faith.</i><p>Basically, in modern online mob communication, the winning side defines what &quot;good faith&quot; and &quot;bad faith&quot; are. The winning side defines a vague code of conduct, cloaks themselves in &quot;goodness&quot; and then openly uses the &quot;bad faith&quot; slander against anyone who disagrees on any issue (even purely technical ones).
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kodahabout 3 years ago
&gt; Both ends of the political spectrum (the far left and the far right) express this view. Both sides believe that “the other side” simply can’t be trusted and therefore cannot be engaged in good faith. To do so would be to fall into a trap, serving only to validate the dangerous views of groups known to be acting in bad faith.<p>This is what I&#x27;m most tired of. Anytime you try to point this out one of these two groups will respond with, &quot;both sides, both sides&quot; like some edgy teenager sitting at the lunch table looking for a confirmatory laugh from their friends. People love this world that&#x27;s developed to some degree; that&#x27;s what the real uphill battle is.
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jccalhounabout 3 years ago
Yes, arguing in good faith is good but how do you deal with people who have no interest in arguing in good faith? I encounter this all the time and I just choose to stop engaging.
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airforce1about 3 years ago
Really good article. Succinctly articulates and categorizes types of online social interactions I&#x27;ve observed over the past decade. I&#x27;m guilty of occasionally engaging bad faith communications myself. I&#x27;m trying to do better. For a while now I&#x27;ve felt this uneasiness that the escalating social discord we&#x27;ve been seeing over the past ~5 years could have disastrous consequences. I&#x27;m starting to think in terms of urgency, this year-over-year escalation of social discord needs to be addressed even before climate change.
pohlabout 3 years ago
This was a great article. A practical question came to mind while reading it: Now that bad-faith communication has become normalized, does it makes sense to keep bringing good-faith communication to a bad-faith communication fight?<p>Obviously it would be ideal to model the behavior that we&#x27;d like to see in the world, but what if this toothpaste can&#x27;t be put back into the tube? Brandolini&#x27;s Law suggests that this might be a cultural &quot;innovation&quot; akin to the invention of gunpowder.
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tappioabout 3 years ago
Can someone point me to an example of a society where good faith communication has dominated? This article paints a picture that the issue is something new, but I don&#x27;t know any human society where bad faith communication was not a norm. Differences are mainly related to power structures and who holds the Power to communicate. Besides, this is really a dualist perspective to communication. What if most communication is neither good faith or bad faith, but something in between?
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bittercynicabout 3 years ago
I&#x27;d just like to take a moment to express my appreciation for the discussion on this site. I believe there is a better ratio of good-faith to bad-faith communication here than on any other public forum where everyone is free to participate.
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voakbasdaabout 3 years ago
Is it just me, or are all of the listed bad faith communication mannerisms rife in government and the legal profession? I no longer trust the rule of law, because everyone involved acts in bad faith. From police, lawyers, politicians, bureaucrats… my experience has shown that are all untrustworthy in anything they say. The fish rots from the head.
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jon37about 3 years ago
&quot;Bad Faith Communication: discourse that is intended to achieve behavioral outcomes (including consensus, agreement, &quot;likes&quot;) irrespective of achieving true mutual understanding&quot;<p>I would argue that nearly all advertisements fit this description. The field of advertising has achieved a massive technological leap over the past few decades.
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alexb_about 3 years ago
This article is great at explaining many differences between good and bad faith communication, but repeatedly asserts that bad communication = wars, violence, etc while providing no proof or argument to support that claim.<p>In reality, we are in a world where there is absolutely 0 reason to be arguing in good faith for anything you truly care about. The most effective way you convince people of something is using all of the bad faith tactics listed here - you get no bonus points from the audience for avoiding these, since a very small amount of people are willing to say something about it, and by avoiding these tactics you are just letting your opponents use them to gain an upper hand.<p>If there is something you truly care about, something that you think swaying general opinion could make a real difference in your life, arguing in &quot;good faith&quot; is foolish.
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nickdothuttonabout 3 years ago
What an interesting and thoughtful article. However we will not restore good-faith communication in public spaces. It’s a 1-way process. This is why the future will be (I think) smaller and more selective communities where good-faith discourse can occur between a select sub-set of people. Probably the sort of people who do not feel threatened intellectually or otherwise in indulging in such an exchange. You are not going to educate or persuade “the mass” to change their approach now.<p>If you disagree with me then you are evil and on the wrong side of history and I will summon a mob against you. ;-)
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AussieWog93about 3 years ago
Is &quot;bad faith communication&quot; always in bad faith (ie, socially undesirable)? Some people are just wrong because they are talking out of their arse, and need to be put in their place.
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cycomanicabout 3 years ago
Generally a good article, but unfortunately it falls into the political trap.<p>&gt; Both ends of the political spectrum (the far left and the far right) express this view. Both sides believe that “the other side” simply can’t be trusted and therefore cannot be engaged in good faith.<p>I find it unfortunate that they blame this behaviour only on the extremes, because it is prevalent amongst moderates who often even state &quot;you can&#x27;t discuss&#x2F;negotiate with extremists&quot; and engage in bad faith communications towards the extremes.
asxdabout 3 years ago
I thoroughly enjoyed this article, it was a bit of a breath of fresh air.<p>Some quotes that resonated:<p>&gt; <i>There should be no illusion: today’s culture war cannot be won by any side.</i><p>&gt; <i>Good faith communication is both a complex skill and a value commitment that shapes personal identity. In other words: doing it is sufficiently difficult that getting good at it will change the kind of person that you are.</i><p>&gt; <i>Delicately transforming a situation of escalating bad faith requires the slow establishment of previously unrecognized shared interests, often on issues as basic as self-preservation. The goal in most cases is not agreement—that would be naive—the goal is simply to preserve the possibility of communication itself.</i><p>Also learned the term &quot;steelmanning,&quot; which seems to be pretty much identical to the hacker news guideline:<p>&gt; <i>Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that&#x27;s easier to criticize. Assume good faith.</i><p>This essay also does a good job of explaining the concept: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mypeculiarblog.com&#x2F;2021&#x2F;11&#x2F;07&#x2F;what-is-steelmanning&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mypeculiarblog.com&#x2F;2021&#x2F;11&#x2F;07&#x2F;what-is-steelmanning&#x2F;</a>
Slightedabout 3 years ago
This is an extremely dangerous (and quite frankly stupid) way of thinking. Discourse is discourse, regardless of how you feel about it. When people feel as though &quot;bad&quot; faith discourse needs to be controlled through curation, censorship, or through some other means, you end up with idiots like Twitters Parag Agrawal saying things like &quot;Our role is not to be bound by the First Amendment, but our role is to serve a healthy public conversation.&quot; <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.technologyreview.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;11&#x2F;18&#x2F;1012066&#x2F;emtech-stage-twitters-cto-on-misinformation&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.technologyreview.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;11&#x2F;18&#x2F;1012066&#x2F;emtech-s...</a> The &quot;endgame&quot; of &quot;bad faith&quot; communication is the endgame of your freedom of speech and expression. I agree that people ought to be more compassionate and open-minded, both on the internet and in real life, but I am in no position to control what another person thinks or says, and I&#x27;m certainly not in a position to make the judgement of what &quot;good&quot; or &quot;bad&quot; faith discourse is. No one is.<p>This entire article is buzzword trash, using terminology such as &quot;post-truth&quot; and statements such as &quot;Seeking to understand others and communicate honestly is an essential democratic virtue&quot;.
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dclowd9901about 3 years ago
The problem isn’t the prominence of bad faith communication. That’s a symptom. Bad faith communicating happens because one party becomes cornered when their standpoint is indefensible, and they know it.<p>Once one side renounces good faith communication, the other sees no point in maintaining communication in good faith, so they throw it away too. So the problem isn’t communicating in bad faith. By the time you’ve gotten there, the battle for good faith communication was already lost.<p>The problem is pride, plain and simple. If people could detach themselves from their views and not make being wrong anything more than that, then we could once again open the door to good faith communication.
coding123about 3 years ago
There&#x27;s no way to win an argument anymore because the goalposts don&#x27;t even exist anymore. All of the groups that exist have decided to remove them so that instead of winning small battles, they win the entire narrative by removing all goalposts (the thing that locks some conversation or argument inside some constraint). Without those constraints there&#x27;s literally no argument to be had. At that point people just talk past each other so all that&#x27;s really left in America is if your local radio stations tend to be more left or right. And whether you have Fox or CNN on your TV.
cracrecryabout 3 years ago
Propaganda and bad faith has always been normalized, it is not new, read Edward Bernays&#x27; Propaganda.<p>Human nature is that of a predator. Powerful get advantage of the weak, and always has been.<p>Take for example the USA, it was created by the &quot;expansion&quot; to the West, &quot;expansion&quot; meaning taking ownership of the land others inhabited, and killing them. That needed a propaganda machine to justify it, Manifest destiny.<p>There were two parties, one won, the other lost. We are not mentioning slavery.<p>When the US could take advantage of the remains of the Spanish Empire, they did, there was a man called Pulitzer that became rich and famous inventing lies like &quot;remember the Maine&quot;(probably a false flag attack) in order to take control of their colonies and colonize it themselves.<p>Germans and French tried to do the same. England, Russia, Turkey and Spain did that before, because it is human nature.<p>Pulitzer never wrote about the US extermination of Spanish teachers in Philippines for example, like modern Media did not inform about the abuses in US created wars like Libya, Syria, Iraq or Afghanistan.<p>Media owners today have lots of business to do, they need the masses to support them.<p>Most democrats were ok calling Trump Putin&#x27;s puppy with no proof(because they hated the guy and benefited from removing a President using lies if necessary) and then Trump did the same thing with them(accusing them without proof of stealing the elections).<p>The first thing you have to do in order to be free is to read, and not see the world divided in good and bad guys, because if you do you always will consider yourself in the good guys, even when you are the bad side. Then there will be no difference between you and the rest.
bjtabout 3 years ago
If you want to see some great examples of politicians engaging in good faith communication, check out the series &quot;The Constitution: That Delicate Balance&quot; that Annenberg put out in 1984.<p>I wish they&#x27;d repeat it with new participants. I&#x27;m not sure which politicians I can imagine taking part though. It does seem like we&#x27;ve declined from the level of discourse shown there.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.learner.org&#x2F;series&#x2F;the-constitution-that-delicate-balance&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.learner.org&#x2F;series&#x2F;the-constitution-that-delicat...</a>
chiefalchemistabout 3 years ago
&gt; Bad faith communication has become normalized.<p>Like it or not, believe it or not, this is true of all actors. (In the USA) it&#x27;s not just Team Red, or Team Blue. Both have become masters of the slight of information hand (i.e., propaganda).<p>If you choose to go binary and take sides then at least try to avoid hyprocricy and hold your side to the same standards you hold the other.<p>At the moment, bad faith comms and hyprocricy go hand in hand.
projektfuabout 3 years ago
I see a dynamic on Twitter a lot where a person who is probably aligned with the retweeter is thrown under the bus to demonstrate the purity of the retweeter. The retweeted person is usually misrepresented or uncharitable interpreted.<p>Why so much friendly fire? It is hard to imagine we can truly heal discourse across a political divide when we cannot even do nice to our neighbors on the spectrum.
rogerallenabout 3 years ago
I wish there was a &quot;good faith&quot; up arrow.
jsebanabout 3 years ago
I think the issue is trying to have individualism, and team work at the same time.<p>Good performance is team effort, bad performance is 100% individual. Seems to create incentives similar to an ultimatum game. If you work together you get nothing, the only strategy that will serve your own interest, is to step on other people.
stephc_int13about 3 years ago
In my opinion, the main issues with bad faith versus good faith communication is that the later is only used within what speakers consider their tribe.<p>Tribalism (and thus trust) is the deeper issue, and is unfortunately deeply rooted in human nature.<p>I think that the problems arising with tribalism can be seen as a drawback to diversity.
WhitneyLandabout 3 years ago
Why is it so difficult for people too see bad faith communication hurts their own ability to understand things?
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vintermannabout 3 years ago
&gt; Both ends of the political spectrum (the far left and the far right) express this view.<p>I&#x27;d strike this phrase, because it&#x27;s far from clear what the &quot;far left&quot; is. Is it wealthy Silicon Valley liberals with radical ideas about gender? Or is it for instance the trotskyist World Socialist Web Site, which buy Russian false flag conspiracy claims but are free speech absolutists? And &quot;far right&quot;, are we talking about Ayn Rand fans, neo-traditionalist catholic populists like JD Vance etc, or neonazi militias?<p>Last of all, is the political center necessarily more honest or devoted to good faith public debate? Not that I can see. Their strategies can be different, since they can get away with just never acknowledging disagreement, which makes little sense for small fringes, but there&#x27;s nothing inherently honest or good-willed about centrism.
for_i_in_rangeabout 3 years ago
Above the line communication: Openness, Curious, Committed to Learning.<p>Below the line: Closed, Defensive, Committed to being right.<p>Credit: Jim Dethmer, <i>The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership</i>
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fullsharkabout 3 years ago
I&#x27;d argue bad faith communication now has mechanisms that enable audiences to call it out and criticize it, it was always normalized.
foxesabout 3 years ago
At this stage I just reject communication anyway, I am never going to reach some dumb compromise with conservatives, [homo,trans]-phobes, racists, oligarch supporters, climate change deniers etc. In my view they are morally, ethically, scientifically wrong so there is absolutely nothing constructive to even engage with. I don&#x27;t think the fundamental problem is:<p>&gt;wow if only you just were good faith and were able to engage with these people!<p>They are fundamentally opposed to everything I stand for. I don&#x27;t think communication is possible. Maybe there are unaligned or uniformed people that are still to pick, but the only solution is actually building a better society, and one side winning.
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TimPCabout 3 years ago
Steelmanning is a bad idea that needs to go away. It’s pretty condescending to say “your argument was bad I fixed it for you”. It’s also confusing when someone tries to improve an argument before responding to it. Lastly, steelmanning done poorly changes an argument into something that’s easier to respond to without necessarily improving it. It might be a good concept for academic debates in ivory towers. In general, it’s confusing and wildly impractical.
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anovikovabout 3 years ago
Maybe the underlying reason is that there is no more common interest between groups that fight each other? That is, no more &quot;society&quot; as something common, most importantly, right-wing electorate can&#x27;t benefit from what can benefit left-wing electorate, and vice versa? Indeed, the discourse has become quite ugly, but maybe the reason is not the form, but the substance: that it&#x27;s no longer about arguing about what&#x27;s better for society as a whole, but winning over the other side to achieve what&#x27;s good for &quot;us&quot;, by defeating the interest of &quot;them&quot;.<p>I believe this is the case, and core reason is that we are increasingly in the slow-growth world. Most people will not benefit greatly from overall progress of economy in their lifetime, just because it is now too slow. It&#x27;s more and more about taking over something for &quot;us&quot; from &quot;them&quot; as opposed to &quot;making the pie bigger&quot;.<p>Same is the reason for rise of dictatorship. In a slow-growth world, there is no way a democratic government or leader can achieve any tangible goals in one electoral cycle. So they have to resort to bullshit of one sort or the other - nothing which is not a deliberate lie, can be attractive enough to their voters. Only a lifelong dictatorship can hope to get things done.<p>One hope is that once the renewable energy takes over from the fossil fuels and we start seeing our worldwide energy base grow exponentially again the way it did through mid-1970s, quicker growth will return and things will gradually fix themselves.
pmoriartyabout 3 years ago
What&#x27;s the difference between &quot;bad faith communication&quot; and just plain old trolling?
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hans1729about 3 years ago
Here is my model:<p>The root problem is: the 90% of people who are not inherently driven by curiosity want to contribute&#x2F;validate their viewpoint&#x2F;seek peer confirmation.<p>This, left alone, leads to nothing good, which is why we came up with this funny concept of &quot;culture&quot;.<p>But culture is dead, courtesy of<p>* the social-laissez-faire-boogaloo of the US&#x27; concept of &quot;total freedom&quot;<p>* the decay of stability-providing social structures<p>* existential dread&#x2F;people trapped in the lower levels of Maslows pyramid<p>Imagine how smart the smartest people out of one million are. Pretty smart, huh? We have 7000 of them, and they have lots of things to say, but nobody gives a fuck, because people don&#x27;t actually seek to understand. They seek validation, righteousness and stability. And you don&#x27;t have to be the smartest out of a million to be worth listening to, but the simple fact that our &quot;culture&quot; (which is decayed to complete archaic groupthink) sets up the wrong reward incentives should paint a clear picture and be accessible to understand for everyone. Its not that <i>stupid</i> people get famous, its that people who are not <i>curious</i> get famous. <i>That</i> is where we fail.<p>The answer to this <i>must be</i> culture, again. But this time one that matches the world we&#x27;ve built since the last one collapsed, namely one that provides the stability people seek <i>across the board</i>. When the framework for that stability was religion, critically relevant people could not find social stability when they questioned god. That&#x27;s why religion as a framework sucks, it doesn&#x27;t capture the entire group.<p>The solution is easy: curiosity. Curious people are worth listening to, <i>everyone else is not</i>. This is something we have to cement in every piece of art and work we create. Literally: show the people who&#x27;s minds are trapped in a simpler place their limits, very gently, and offer salvation: man, there are lots of intelligent people out there who try to make the world a better place. You don&#x27;t <i>have</i> to understand it all, and you wont anyway, so don&#x27;t stress yourself. We can do this, together. This, roughly, is the rhetoric picture we&#x27;ll have to paint over the last decades. That, and only that, fixes the problem at its root.
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SergeAxabout 3 years ago
Why, why for god sake, half of the text in this article is made of pictures?! JPEG pictures!!
yeetsfromhellL2about 3 years ago
The bad faith characteristics sound like some parents I know talking to their kids.
boredumbabout 3 years ago
We&#x27;ve trained society to believe they are bringing in some form of enlightenment and all who disagree with the orthodoxy portrayed by popular media are quite literally evil and held with contempt. We&#x27;ve banned, censored, demonetized and ostracized people who disagree by finding even the most minuscule lapses of political correctness and excommunicating them from the public sphere or our own personal communities. We are training the youth (children books to graduates) that politics and culture are black and white (sometimes quite literally...), that people are divided into oppressed vs oppressors, privileged vs victims, good vs evil, activists vs status quo, rich vs poor.<p>There is nothing you can do at this point on an individual level in 90% or more of interactions where you are in a political or social disagreement with someone using good faith communication without it being used to crucify you and be seen as naive, uninformed or apathetic. People have not arrived to their own opinions based on good faith communication or information, they have found themselves there through over socialization, indoctrination, bullying, media bombardment, and fear of not being part of the in-group that they are told are on the right side of history - and so they can only operate on that level of thought and &quot;reasoning&quot;. Entitled &quot;activists&quot; and cultural busy bodies aren&#x27;t going to suddenly find a viewpoint that has been deemed to them by authoritative figures (professors, celebrities, peer group majorities) as the views of an &quot;SJW&quot;, &quot;Nazis&quot;, &quot;Fascists&quot;, &quot;Rednecks&quot;, or &quot;Libtards&quot; as a suddenly viable option without suffering massive cognitive dissonance and you showing humility for&#x2F;steelmanning their opinions will not change that, it will only further cement things for them if they are even listening and not just waiting for you to finish in order to pop the cork off their next manufactured talking point.
slackfanabout 3 years ago
An article on bad faith communication, hilariously, displaying some bad faith communication traits.<p>Its almost like communication is a complex subject and boiling it down to a binary good&#x2F;bad state is an utterly reductionist way of thinking.
127about 3 years ago
It has been quite instructive to watch what Russia has said and done about the war. Various tactics in their media, that once you think about them, are more common in every day use.<p>1. Euphenisms: &quot;Tactical military operation&quot; invent all kinds of word games that hide the true nature of actions committed.<p>2. Mirroring: Blaming the victim for doing the same thing you are already guilty of.<p>3. Hate speech: Saying you are a Nazi (or otherwise a bad person, insert any emotionally effective, hard to defend against bad word here) and therefore deserve to be murdered&#x2F;silenced.<p>Which also makes me question which comes first: authoritarianism and oppression, or the collapse of speech to these kinds of low levels.
braingeniousabout 3 years ago
I like the part where the author mentions having heard “you can’t argue with Nazis!” and then just sort of wanders off into theoreticals about being polite or whatever.<p>I was really confused about what the author’s actual experience was like until I realized that this was published by some sort of think tank. This whole article is basically a big bongrippy, chin stroking hand-wave about the importance of Decorum.<p>Props to whoever got paid money to write this silly piece. Whoever is funding this stuff clearly has too much money to interface with reality and it’s a good thing that they’re (hopefully) being fleeced to the max by writers that are happy to churn out drivel
legalcorrectionabout 3 years ago
There is no room for a truce. To oversimplify it, liberal democracy was basically a 200 year armistice between liberals and conservatives. Now, both sides see the imminent prospect of either final defeat or final victory. The only thing that matters is winning. On this, both sides are right.
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kazinatorabout 3 years ago
I don&#x27;t agree with certain important points of this article. It is rooted in what seems to be the following unwritten tenets:<p>1. <i>There is no truth; everything is relative. Therefore anyone who becomes convinced of anything (even if rationally so!) and remains in a debate is a bad actor.</i><p>2. <i>People who disagree can continue to debate forever, forever doubting their own positions and maintaining a willingness to change to the other side. The debate is just a game; there are no consequences as to who is right or wrong, therefore anyone who believes they have &quot;skin in the game&quot; is like a child who gets carried away with a game.</i><p>3. <i>Because the truth is relative, and debates are just a game with no consequences, whenever some claim of truth is used to establish guidelines regarding behavior claimed to be harmful to the world, that is just an unproven suggestion: those who are not convinced of the debate should be free to carry on as they wish. The slightest coercion in this constitutes totalitarianism more befitting of North Korea than a constitutional democracy.</i><p>Note how many of the examples of the &quot;Common Strategies of Bad Faith Communication&quot;, those that are not about general poor debating tactics anyone uses, are drawn from the behavior of some of those whose belief is based on rational information, e.g. from science. The list is not balanced by mentioning the specific strategies of other side: such as<p>- the willingness to reject a mountain of evidence (e.g. as &quot;fake&quot;) against one&#x27;s view in order to cling to a teaspoon supporting one&#x27;s view.<p>- making up statements and believing in them<p>- referring to irrelevant authorities.<p>- general disdain for learning and intellect.<p>This article is a manifesto for those who want to be forever doubting facts, and forever to be treated with silk gloves, forever to be implored to think, forever to require extraordinary effort on the part of others to find ways to convince. And most importantly: forever to be excused from following any inconvenient rules for avoiding harm, out of the utmost respect for one&#x27;s non-acceptance of an argument.<p>&quot;Rules are based in truth. Truth is relative, therefore, the rules have no validity; I will conform to them if you find a way to convince me you&#x27;re right (which is unlikely to ever happen) but please always behave toward me without a hint of contempt while you choose to engage me. An acceptable &#x27;end game&#x27; of a debate is that we &#x27;agree to disagree&#x27; with the utmost debating respect, and go our separate ways without changing any behavior that is contingent on the content of the debate.&quot;<p>Also, I would add the following as a genuine bad-faith strategy in online debating:<p><i>Posting key arguments not as plain text, but images of text from which excerpts cannot be easily quoted without retyping or OCR tools.*</i>
overthemoonabout 3 years ago
With the caveat that I very much believe in civil, good faith discourse, I find that in being a formal critique of the discourse, it can nevertheless introduce the author&#x27;s own ideological preferences (fine) in a way that appears neutral (not fine) or purely formal (very not fine). Here are two examples:<p>&gt; Calls for good faith communication are understood at best as naive requests to calm the outrage and conflict that now runs rife in political discourse. Both ends of the political spectrum (the far left and the far right) express this view. Both sides believe that “the other side” simply can’t be trusted and therefore cannot be engaged in good faith.<p>This phenomenon exists, it permeates the spectrum. However, the use of the word &quot;far&quot; here sticks in my craw. It implies, without outright suggesting, that the center is the reasonable referee, rather than existing on a spectrum that has a history. What is center today may very well have been &quot;far left&quot; or &quot;far right&quot; 40 years ago, and its relative distance from other ideologies is irrelevant when it comes to objectivity. You have a home base. It&#x27;s not just &quot;Liberalism&quot;. No one is a contentless unit of democratic formalism.<p>&gt; Given well-documented advances in the field of information warfare, there should be no illusion: today’s culture war cannot be won by any side. Mutually assured destruction is now the name of the wargame.[6] The saturation of bad faith communication throughout culture is steadily increasing, like a kind of dangerous background radiation emitted from scientifically engineered memetic weaponry. Public political discourse is quickly becoming a toxic warzone, leaching externalities into families, friendships, and identity structures.<p>&quot;Culture war&quot; is a slur for a particular kind of vitriolic discourse, but it is in fact a war over what we consider the common good. In other words--politics. This is the meat and potatoes of democracy. Liberalism says the state shouldn&#x27;t have an opinion on it. The &quot;common good&quot; is what we all agree it is. People will disagree. So then it stands to reason that whoever has the most influence (defined as broadly as you&#x27;d like) gets to decide what the common good is. This war has high stakes.<p>This also smuggles in the notion that so-called information warfare has in fact warped political outcomes, which is far from being well-documented. The cause-&gt;effect sequence is not established. But let&#x27;s say it is--who are the actors, and why are they doing it? Those motivations have political causes. What are they? Or is misinformation just metastasized communication, chaotic irruptions that happens over a long enough time scale?<p>Overall, this presents a primarily formal and cultural diagnosis of political chaos and fracture as the root cause, couched in objective language, when that is itself an ideological position. There are other analyses. One might argue that the fractured discourse is an effect, not a cause, but it&#x27;s taken for granted that _formal_ misbehavior is the cause of the fractious political atmosphere, rather than... well, anything else, I guess. Substitute your favorite diagnosis here.<p>It&#x27;s fine to have this analysis. It&#x27;s not fine to pretend it&#x27;s anything but an ideological, non-objective analysis. I get the impulse to try to rise above the fray. Politics is ugly, but it&#x27;s ugly because the stakes are so high. Getting lost in the weeds of formal objections isn&#x27;t going to fix anything. There&#x27;s more going on than just procedural fuck ups.<p>Just my take. I might be imbuing this article with the sins of similar pieces it doesn&#x27;t commit (although I don&#x27;t think so), but I think this tendency is common enough that it&#x27;s worth bringing up. It happens fairly often on HN. Nerds love rules. I&#x27;m no exception.
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incomingpainabout 3 years ago
&gt;Decades of culture war have degraded civic discourse,<p>The culture wars or the neoliberalism stuff is over. It&#x27;s surprising how many still believe this is happening. Culture wars ended 2009-2014 or so.<p>&gt;Bad faith communication has become normalized.<p>Before social media we had newspapers and when tv news came along they were extremely regulated. Bad faith was the standard. The newspapers publish lie after lie and they got away with it for decades if not centuries.<p>&gt;When open communication cannot be used to resolve conflict and coordinate behavior, societies are driven towards chaos, war, oppression, and authoritarianism.<p>Everyone knows this, it is diplomacy&#x2F;talking that ends wars. The entities like Twitter who are censoring communication under false pretense knows they are breaking this rule. They also understand their objective and how this is their intention.<p>&gt;There should be no illusion: today’s culture war cannot be won by any side.<p>The author needs the realization is that the culture war is over. They need to analyze and discover who was the victor.<p>Let me show the battles:<p>Climate Change: would you say we are doing much of anything for climate change? Even fake efforts like carbon taxes that dont do anything?<p>Gamergate: would you say mandolorian boob armor was a problem?<p>BLM: Fundamentally police brutality and racism is a problem but did BLM achieve anything? Are there any defunding police? Did the democrats pass anything?<p>Comicsgate: Did red skull jordan peterson really work out?<p>LGBT: Dave Chapelle put an end to that one single handed. LGBT can rejoice.<p>UBI&#x2F;MMT: Just tried it in limited fashion. Nobody seriously bringing this up anymore.<p>White fragility: Yep, white people are all racists. We totally need to teach that to our children.<p>There&#x27;s 1 side who won basically all of those in the end. When you lose battle after battle during the culture war. You eventually lose.<p>What happened is in their failure they became a religion. There are now heresies and the heretics must burn. You must pay penance for your sinning.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;2021_Canadian_church_burnings" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;2021_Canadian_church_burnings</a><p>None of those church fires ever got investigated by police.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;abcnews.go.com&#x2F;International&#x2F;horrible-attack-catholic-priest-stabbed-live-streamed-church&#x2F;story?id=61870081" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;abcnews.go.com&#x2F;International&#x2F;horrible-attack-catholi...</a><p>I have never seen the government arrest so many religious leaders in my life. Our law in canada explicitly makes it illegal for police to arrest clergyman.<p>&quot;arrest of officiating clergyman&quot; is a crime that police are subject to, yet you can watch video on youtube of police breaking this law.<p>None of this is surprising. It&#x27;s a new religion, new religions normally look to destroy their competitor religion.
jimkleiberabout 3 years ago
Edit: for those downvoting, I&#x27;m ok with you disagreeing or even feeling annoyed or angry with what I said. I sincerely also wish you would comment below so that I better understand what led to you downvoting. Currently I&#x27;m not sure what I did to lead to that and I&#x27;d like to know so that I might prevent it in the future.<p>Ooo, I feel really frustrated by the labeling of them as good or bad faith communication. In their box explaining good faith communication, they say that all those behaviors can be faked if someone is engaging in bad faith communication, so it leaves me wondering how does one actually know whether another or oneself is using good faith communication? I think this harkens back to the discussion on here the other day about always assume good intentions. After reading this article, I almost left it feeling more hopeless, as if it were saying most people communicate with bad intention (bad faith) and by using good and bad as labels, further ingrains the concept of binary good&#x2F;evil, falling somewhat into a &quot;bad faith&quot; aspect of black&#x2F;white polarizing categorization.<p>However, I feel grateful that they started this conversation and overall address the challenge that we have in communicating to resolve conflict. I personally believe they could simplify their good&#x2F;bad faith classification by focusing more on how open people are communicating about what they&#x27;re feeling and thinking and how open people are to hearing&#x2F;imagining how others are feeling and thinking. I think underlying much of their distinction between good&#x2F;bad faith is an element of more open or more closed, and that such language, especially with the more qualifier included, may not carry such connotations of good&#x2F;bad.<p>I feel very confident that one of the largest challenges we face as a society is how to communicate more openly with each other—to say how we feel and think—when anything we say can be shared around the world, recorded, aggregated, etc.<p>Even after writing this, the idea of &quot;good faith&quot; vs &quot;bad faith&quot; communication really irks me lol. I believe most of us communicate out of how we are feeling based on the things that have happened and are happening in our lives and we are trying our best. In that way, I assume even the people acting in &quot;bad faith&quot; are acting out of &quot;good faith&quot; and perhaps that&#x27;s the main issue I have with this. I have found assuming people to have good faith even if they and others assume they have bad faith, can drastically improve how I feel in conversations, relationships, and resolving conflict.
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