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Mental speed is high until age sixty

466 pointsby qwabout 3 years ago

28 comments

admissionsguyabout 3 years ago
Over the years, I have become convinced that much of the observed age-correlated cognitive decline in people younger than ~70 results from voluntary life choices, such as settling into fixed behavioural patterns (e.g. doing the same thing over and over for decades) and lack of exposure to new stimuli.<p>It&#x27;s the case for some physical activities as well: almost all people&#x27;s actual performance degrades way, way faster, than their potential peak performance.
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marstallabout 3 years ago
I&#x27;m 53 and recently embarked on a complex self-guided mini-medical education to try to understand my son&#x27;s rare condition.<p>I&#x27;ve pushed my way through a 400 page nursing textbook, dozens of scientific papers and a 900 page freshman neuroscience textbook (currently at page 90).<p>I never took any bioscience class after high school software chem.<p>There have been ups and downs. Mentally comparing myself to when I was in school and reading comparable material, I feel my ability to master it was at or above that - at its best. However the amount of time I spend &quot;at my best&quot; in general is MUCH lower than when I was that age.<p>Today I have trouble sleeping many nights. An old hip injury and also anxiety.<p>A night I don&#x27;t sleep well is definitely not going to be followed by a day where I gain understanding of neuronal membrane chemistry.<p>Didn&#x27;t have those issues when I was 17 - any time was study time.<p>So I guess this goes along with the thesis of the story. Mental powers are there, but other body systems aren&#x27;t able to support the brain&#x27;s demands at quite the same level.
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ourmandaveabout 3 years ago
<i>Abstract<p>Response speeds in simple decision-making tasks begin to decline from early and middle adulthood.<p>However, response times are not pure measures of mental speed but instead represent the sum of multiple processes.<p>Here we apply a Bayesian diffusion model to extract interpretable cognitive components from raw response time data. We apply our model to cross-sectional data from 1.2 million participants to examine age differences in cognitive parameters.<p>To efficiently parse this large dataset, we apply a Bayesian inference method for efficient parameter estimation using specialized neural networks.<p>Our results indicate that response time slowing begins as early as age 20, but this slowing was attributable to increases in decision caution and to slower non-decisional processes, rather than to differences in mental speed.<p>Slowing of mental speed was observed only after approximately age 60.<p>Our research thus challenges widespread beliefs about the relationship between age and mental speed.</i>
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grammersabout 3 years ago
From my experience, you only become &#x27;slower&#x27; due to avoiding challenges. When you are young, you are forced to mastering challenges: at school, college, in life (moving out, organizing your life independently), etc.<p>Once you are settled in this routine, there are no forced challenges anymore. You need to keep looking for them. ;)
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TaupeRangerabout 3 years ago
Lots of things can happen to your brain as you age. But if it&#x27;s physically healthy, there&#x27;s not much difference between people of different ages. Noam Chomsky is 93 and, though he speaks more slowly, his mind is sharp as ever. It&#x27;s just that, statistically speaking, older people have a higher chance of physical problems inside the brain or brain cells, probably many we don&#x27;t even know about yet.
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torginusabout 3 years ago
Now what does that say about the geriatrics that seem to be running all major world powers right now?
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justinlloydabout 3 years ago
I will stop work the day I die.<p>I don&#x27;t think I will ever retire. It is just simply not for me.<p>Be curious.<p>Seek out interesting problems.<p>Never stop learning.<p>I don&#x27;t think I am any slower today than I was at the start of my career.
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belterabout 3 years ago
A paper funded by the German tax payer (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.dfg.de&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.dfg.de&#x2F;</a>) that they need to pay to access :-)<p>Code here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;stefanradev93&#x2F;DataSizeMatters" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;stefanradev93&#x2F;DataSizeMatters</a>
herdcallabout 3 years ago
I think there&#x27;s some of the well-known &quot;Thinking, Fast and Slow&quot; (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow</a>) thing going on as well. As we age, we gain knowledge and insights that we try to reconcile with as we learn new things, and that takes longer. E.g., if you&#x27;re learning the theory of music scales, those with a math background will tend to think of the math behind the notes as they learn, which is the &quot;Think Slow&quot; way (with active analysis) and takes longer but results in a deeper understanding.
lr4444lrabout 3 years ago
This is just an abstract, so maybe I am missing something, but it sounds like a subtle moral judgment is being inserted here that faster is better: younger people react faster often because of impulsivity. Why should we believe that a faster response time is a good thing, aside from swerving to avoid an accident and the like? Is that what was under measure here?
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mustardgreenabout 3 years ago
Thomas Hobbes was in his 60’s when he wrote Leviathan. I think about that a lot when I get discouraged.
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Misteur-Zabout 3 years ago
Having done in the same day 6 hours of psycho-technical and psycho-motor tests at Air France to get into their &quot;Pilote Cadet&quot; program (4h in the morning then 2h in the afternoon after a lunch break), I definitely felt my mental speed during high load+stress at 32 was already a lot slower than at 20 in engineering school. I never felt so brain exhausted and I concluded I was not that sharp anymore ...
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pmoriartyabout 3 years ago
There are some studies that suggest that psychedelics may increase neuroplasticity and promote neurogenesis. Studies about in to whether psychedelics may help diseases like Alzheimer&#x27;s are underway.
racl101about 3 years ago
It&#x27;s weird. We only have like a 20-30 year window where we&#x27;ve attained the most knowledge and experience we&#x27;ll ever attain and be the best mental version of ourselves and then we go down the shitter.
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mellosoulsabout 3 years ago
Personally I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s anything to worry about for the vast majority of people, only those rare outliers of <i>both</i> brilliance and industry are going to see significant negative effects in their output due to age-related mental decline.<p>In terms of individual peak production the greatest pop stars, physicists and poets (say) are done by 25. Your <i>average</i> decent coder can pretty much go on producing for decades.<p>Only at the extremes is this going to have a massive effect. Most of us don&#x27;t live there and we maybe over-worry about it.
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saiya-jinabout 3 years ago
Case point only 2, but I can see slow but steady decline in my parents after their 50s. No addiction like alcohol or tobacco, no neuro-degenerative diseases, they just became slower, grumpier, more and more detached from &#x27;the edge of society&#x27;.<p>Now they are in their 60s and same work they did all their life (leading economical department of 3 high schools with various rental properties, manager at metal engineering company having at one time 300 subordinates), they would barely manage. Memory starts to go down too.<p>At this rate, it will last them well into 90s to be OK for anything ordinary life can bring, but to ignore this is to ignore reality right in front of me.<p>Maybe there is some other factor, like constant hard training of the brain by having ever-evolving creative work instead of kind of same office work, or some other aspect.
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johnaspdenabout 3 years ago
Say researchers in their mid-fifties, the prime of life.
dangabout 3 years ago
Recent and (loosely) related:<p><i>The brain expands and shrinks over time</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=31048591" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=31048591</a> - April 2022 (46 comments)<p><i>Brain charts: mapping the rapid growth and slow decline of the brain over life</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=30943370" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=30943370</a> - April 2022 (27 comments)
SubiculumCodeabout 3 years ago
I suspect that the largest declines in mental health, and in heart health, associated with aging is associated with obesity, but not directly because of obesity, but because of sleep apnea. Sleep apnea is very prevalent among the over-weight, and it prevents quality sleep, creating stressors of all kinds. Now that apnea is being more aggressively treated in the last decade, I actually suspect that associations between cognitive health and aging to be pushed back even further.
qiskitabout 3 years ago
There was an article about the decline of brain size&#x2F;etc yesterday.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=31048591" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=31048591</a><p>How did I know we&#x27;d get this article today? Am I clairvoyant? So many people in denial about aging.
spebyabout 3 years ago
Oh, great, one more thing to soil the age discrimination problem we have throughout society. Even if this is all true or whatnot, it&#x27;s still a pretty terrible thing for people the older they get.
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belterabout 3 years ago
Link to the paper: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;rdcu.be&#x2F;cHd4j" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;rdcu.be&#x2F;cHd4j</a>
ck2about 3 years ago
Can anyone who can see the full paper tell me if there is a male&#x2F;female difference?<p>Did they bother to break it down male&#x2F;female?
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nomoreusernamesabout 3 years ago
my great grandmother was kicking ass in cardgames and remembered a lot about the things she used in her life. was harder to get new info to stick. took a few more repetitions, but you could see her mind was processing a lot more than mine was. she was a magnificant woman. she turned 101
li2uR3ceabout 3 years ago
All of us leaded gas brain damaged dimwits are about to hit a double whammy?
fortran77about 3 years ago
Phew! I&#x27;m 59 1&#x2F;2.
beanjuiceabout 3 years ago
Comment re-pasted from pubpeer [1], as this article contains claims which amy be disingenuous due to data handling.<p>&quot;This article was reviewed on the error bar podcast episode 25: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;theerrorbar.com&#x2F;?e=25" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;theerrorbar.com&#x2F;?e=25</a> &amp; story 106: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;theerrorbar.com&#x2F;?s=106" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;theerrorbar.com&#x2F;?s=106</a>. The review was done in the light of newspaper headlines about the article. The slightly-edited transcript is copied here:<p>headline: BRAIN DOESN&#x27;T SLOW DOWN UNTIL 60<p>tweet: analysis of 1.2 million responses on the &#x27;implicit association test&#x27; finds that adults&#x27; mental processing speed is totally good &amp; constant until age 60. that&#x27;s good news for all adults over age 35. until you look at the data.<p>description: in a story likely comforting to middle aged scientists &amp; journalists, the Guardian &amp; Independent reported last week that, Good News: the brain does not slow down until we are aged 60. what did they mean?<p>the result comes from a quite complicated analysis of an enormously huge set of data. a social psychology project in the USA has collected nearly 2 million responses from people who were asked to categorise things on a computer screen as, for example, &#x27;good&#x27; versus &#x27;bad&#x27; or as &#x27;black&#x27; versus &#x27;white&#x27;. they did this 120 times each.<p>in general, the results of this so-called &#x27;implicit association test&#x27; are able to reveal people&#x27;s unconscious attitudes - in this example, that white things are good &amp; black things are bad. this test is a classic &amp; it relies on people responding as quickly as possible.<p>in the new study, researchers in Germany downloaded 1.8 million test responses from the free online database. they analysed how people&#x27;s responses changed as they age, from 10 to 80 years old. using some sophisticated (&amp; unnecessarily complicated) analyses, the researchers reported that, while the total time spent doing the task changes a lot over life, one conclusion is that, in fact, our &#x27;mental processing speed&#x27; remains good &amp; strong until age 60.<p>phew!<p>evaluation: does mental speed stay high until age 60?<p>no.<p>this is not a hard one. with a total of nearly 1.2 million responses, all openly available online &amp; clearly-presented in this paper, it is a fantastically-simple task to fact-check this claim. all we need to do is look at the data.<p>i&#x27;ve annotated the image to accompany this story on the error bar website. what the image shows is a gradual &amp; continuous increase in mental speed between age 10 to a peak at about 35, then a gradual &amp; continuous decrease to age 80. it&#x27;s true that the speed of change seems to be different at different ages, but the strong claim that mental speed is &#x27;high &amp; constant until age 60&#x27; is contradicted by just looking at the data.<p>how did it come to this? the error bar dug deeper.<p>first, this is a massive dataset - which is great - but quite a lot of data were removed, for example anyone performing the task without making errors was excluded. that&#x27;s a bit odd, if the best responders are removed.<p>second, the task itself is quite subjective - is something good or bad? or is something black of white? - &amp; although a well-studied task, it&#x27;s just one task, so conclusions about mental speed in general must be extremely limited.<p>third, the data are not a good measure of mental processing speed. to test mental speed, we need volunteers to be fully-focussed &amp; making responses as quickly as possible. but the authors included &#x27;response times&#x27; as long as nearly 6 seconds, the average times were around 1 second &amp; there were some massive - and unexplained - differences between men&#x27;s &amp; women&#x27;s responses.<p>fourth, one claim in the report is that the &#x27;merely mechanical&#x27; processes of seeing the stimuli on screen &amp; making the keyboard press response take as long as half a second in the oldest adults. this is a pure fiction - the study provides no sensible measurement of these sensory &amp; motor processing speeds.<p>fifth, &amp; amusingly, the authors chose a particular kind of deep, machine-learning analysis because they said it was &quot;not possible&quot; to analyse all the data in a different, simpler, but more computationally-expensive way. but the new analysis only took 32 hours to run on a computer, which makes me wonder how long the full analysis would take &amp; why was there such a rush to get it done?<p>sixth &amp; critically, the conclusion that mental processing speed is high and constant until age 60 relies only on the authors&#x27; choice of how to put a best-fit line on the data. the analysis used requires all the people to be divided into two or more different age groups. for error bar nerds: the data were fit with three straight lines for three age groups. but age is a continuous variable, so why did the authors not just fit a single, continuous curve?<p>well, listeners, i downloaded the data, sharpened Occam&#x27;s razor &amp; fit that single curve. it provides a very slightly worse explanation of the data, but that&#x27;s what you would expected, as it is also a much less-complex explanation.&quot;<p>[1]
johnywalksabout 3 years ago
How high?