The upsells on TurboTax are getting a lot more shameless in recent years. I saw the exact same one pop up at least 2-3 times.<p>The one that really aggravated me though was the one at the <i>end</i>: <i>after</i> you FILE your taxes, they present this damned progress-bar looking thing as if you are somehow “not done” yet, as if this totally optional product sale is a required step!! No, no, no, that is just misleading garbage, and it is so annoying to have to constantly hunt around the page for the magic text to get around these things. I mean, I couldn’t even reach the page that lets me download my forms as PDF until I skipped this upsell.<p>What’s more, the product itself is getting more expensive but worse. On desktop, the whole thing is just a blown-up mobile UI (are that many people doing taxes on their phones!?) with all kinds of things unnecessarily hidden. On page after page, there is more than enough space to show everything but instead it’s giant white space everywhere; they HIDE things behind disclosure arrows, and with no logic whatsoever; e.g. on one page it shows the 2020 numbers by default but hides all the 2021 numbers behind arrows!?<p>Guess what isn’t an insultingly-small, truncated experience on desktop? The ads, the upsells. THOSE are full-page, taking full advantage of screen space and even scrolling off the edges.<p>Really shows their priorities.
I've done my taxes on Turbotax for a few years, and didn't even check alternate options because I had the perception they were clunky.<p>I've tried for the first time FreeTaxUSA to prepare my mother's tax return. Guess what? It's even better than Turbotax in some aspects(the UI is similar, but doesn't waste your time with animations), and way cheaper. It only charges you to file state but, if you come from the Free File IRS website (and are under the income requirements), it doesn't even charge you that. There's one upsell for their tax consultants or whatever, but it's only done once.<p>It does not automatically import W2s though, but that saves you maybe 5 minutes per W2. Not sure about stock transactions import either, it seems they can't import from brokers. I will have to check next year. They do seem to have spreadsheet import, so maybe that's something we (as in, HN community) could fix until they have the feature.<p>The competition seems to have improved as well, although I don't have first hand knowledge (but watched some youtube reviews where they walk through the filing with every software).<p>It's time we ditch Intuit. If we can't have free IRS software, then we should at least bleed Intuit dry.<p>EDIT: it's particularly egregious that Intuit came up with the Free File program as a compromise so that IRS wouldn't have their own tax software, only to leave the program.
In Spain I log onto the tax agency website using my digital certificate. It tells me what I have been paid during the year, what I own, how big my mortgage is, etc. If I agree I click a button and pay whatever I owe. If I don't agree, or some info is missing, I add it in and then click the button.<p>It's astronomically easier than filing the same tax information in the US and takes far less time even though the tax code is less clearly written and user support is almost totally nonexistent.<p>The nonexistence of a national ID system makes digital identification unnecessarily difficult. The idea that an individual has to redeclare to the IRS what has already been declared to the IRS on W2s and 1099s is just stupid.<p>The US tax filing system is simply primitive.
Going to give a +1 for FreeTaxUSA. Significantly cheaper than H&R Block and a user interface that is just as good.<p>The large tax companies are engaging in regulatory capture and ought to be sidelined in favor of a healthy society.
I hate how this story is always framed as the fault of evil TurboTax/Intuit. They are simply lobbying for their continued existence. Countless companies do that. The real villains of this story are the politicians who TurtboTax/Intuit have successfully lobbied.<p>The problem isn't people trying to influence the government to do the wrong thing. The problem is the government can so easily be convinced to do the wrong thing.
Any article on this topic is incomplete if it doesn't also include a paragraph on Grover Norquist. I'd argue that his influence has been far more effective than Intuit's lobbying.
Lobbying is a two-way street: it would be good if for once the reporters that investigated this topic would name the politicians on the other end of it, rather than just (albeit deservedly) condemning Intuit for the thousandth time
After reading similar articles in previous years I finally decided to switch. After 10 years with Turbotax, I switched to the Cash App tax app. It was a bit more work to enter the data, but it was actually free. Turbotax free tier barely covers anything and they will bug you every step of the process to upgrade.
As an American living overseas, I'm forced to file taxes every year even though I pay the IRS $0. It therefore seems very silly to pay around $100 a year for tax software.<p>In previous years, TurboTax's free option was pretty great. This year, my only real option was TaxSlayer, since the others required a US mobile number. It worked, but it was very primitive compared to TurboTax. I could've e-filed IRS forms directly, except I also needed to file state taxes, which directed me to use private software.<p>A very stupid system of filing a bunch of paperwork through private companies just so I can pay/receive $0.
Related:<p><i>Filing taxes could be free & simple. H&R Block & Intuit lobby against it (2017)</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30856968" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30856968</a> - March 2022 (114 comments)<p><i>FTC sues Intuit for its deceptive TurboTax “free” filing campaign</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30846071" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30846071</a> - March 2022 (555 comments)<p><i>Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30409523" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30409523</a> - Feb 2022 (122 comments)<p><i>Filing Taxes Could Be Free and Simple. But H&R Block and Intuit Lobby Against It (2017)</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30185484" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30185484</a> - Feb 2022 (18 comments)<p><i>Killing TurboTax</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26330584" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26330584</a> - March 2021 (662 comments)<p><i>Show HN: ustaxes.org – open-source tax filing webapp</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26138446" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26138446</a> - Feb 2021 (219 comments)<p><i>TurboTax Tricked You into Paying to File Your Taxes (2019)</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26102695" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26102695</a> - Feb 2021 (306 comments)<p><i>TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free (2019)</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26060414" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26060414</a> - Feb 2021 (199 comments)<p><i>FTC Is Investigating Intuit over TurboTax Practices</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24409093" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24409093</a> - Sept 2020 (194 comments)<p><i>IRS Reforms Free File Program, Drops Agreement Not to Compete with TurboTax</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21923220" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21923220</a> - Dec 2019 (448 comments)<p><i>IRS Tried to Hide Emails That Show Tax Industry Influence over Free File Program</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21393758" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21393758</a> - Oct 2019 (188 comments)<p><i>TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21281411" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21281411</a> - Oct 2019 (447 comments)<p><i>TurboTax to charge more lower-income customers</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20461169" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20461169</a> - July 2019 (81 comments)<p><i>Congress Scraps Provision to Restrict IRS from Competing with TurboTax</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20119916" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20119916</a> - June 2019 (18 comments)<p><i>TurboTax Uses a “Military Discount” to Trick Troops into Paying to File Taxes</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19994118" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19994118</a> - May 2019 (42 comments)<p><i>Listen to TurboTax Lie to Get Out of Refunding Overcharged Customers</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19870242" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19870242</a> - May 2019 (44 comments)<p><i>TurboTax and H&R Block Saw Free Tax Filing as a Threat</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19810981" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19810981</a> - May 2019 (143 comments)<p><i>TurboTax Hides Its Free File Page from Search Engines</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19758126" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19758126</a> - April 2019 (262 comments)<p><i>TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19718284" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19718284</a> - April 2019 (274 comments)<p><i>Congress Is About to Ban the US Government from Offering Free Online Tax Filing</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19613725" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19613725</a> - April 2019 (696 comments)<p><i>How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19392673" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19392673</a> - March 2019 (253 comments)<p><i>H&R Block and Intuit Lobby Against Free and Simple Tax Filing (2017)</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18956883" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18956883</a> - Jan 2019 (190 comments)<p><i>Would You Let the I.R.S. Prepare Your Taxes? (2015)</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17751383" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17751383</a> - Aug 2018 (424 comments)<p><i>Why I'm boycotting TurboTax this year</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16844458" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16844458</a> - April 2018 (23 comments)<p><i>H&R Block and Intuit Lobbying Against Simpler Tax Filing (2017)</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16841449" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16841449</a> - April 2018 (232 comments)<p><i>H&R Block and Intuit Are Lobbying Against Making Tax Filling Free and Easy</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13922482" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13922482</a> - March 2017 (234 comments)<p><i>How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013)</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13853150" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13853150</a> - March 2017 (439 comments)<p><i>TurboTax Takes Aim at Smaller Rival in Fight for Filers</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11150694" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11150694</a> - Feb 2016 (87 comments)<p><i>Would You Let the I.R.S. Prepare Your Taxes?</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9381437" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9381437</a> - April 2015 (150 comments)<p><i>Would You Let the I.R.S. Prepare Your Taxes?</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9380232" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9380232</a> - April 2015 (124 comments)<p><i>Filing taxes: It shouldn't be so hard</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5488084" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5488084</a> - April 2013 (56 comments)<p><i>How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5443203" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5443203</a> - March 2013 (330 comments)
There is open source software that one can use for the main flows and forms:<p><a href="https://sourceforge.net/projects/opentaxsolver/" rel="nofollow">https://sourceforge.net/projects/opentaxsolver/</a><p>It seems to work and will produce PDF of the forms with data filled in for one. I appreciated it. It will also handle some of the states. It took a while, but I did find how to check out via subversion:<p>svn checkout '<a href="https://svn.code.sf.net/p/opentaxsolver/SrcCodeRepo" rel="nofollow">https://svn.code.sf.net/p/opentaxsolver/SrcCodeRepo</a>'<p>I use subversion so rarely, I always seem to have to figure out that the package name is "subversion" and not "svn" to install on my OS. Then I need to find a tutorial to know how to check it out. Then I just needed to build open tax resolver (no binaries are available for my OS). I have gotten way too used to git and github. :)
It gets harder every year to find tax software that isn't owned by intuit... I don't think any of it is free anymore for anything beyond basic returns. The IRS' paper returns get more complicated every year. It seems Intuit is winning this despite all the complaining.
Further both Intuit and H and R Block have now completely opted out of the IRS Free File system. See:<p><a href="https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/16/intuit-will-no-longer-participate-in-an-irs-free-tax-filing-program-.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/16/intuit-will-no-longer-partic...</a><p>and<p><a href="https://news.bloombergtax.com/daily-tax-report/irss-free-file-partners-moving-forward-without-h-r-block" rel="nofollow">https://news.bloombergtax.com/daily-tax-report/irss-free-fil...</a>
As soon as you have to import any investment data (who does not have at least $100 in S&P these days???) and you also have to file state taxes, then turbotax ends up begin expensive. I think I payed something like $300 or close to that. I used to pay my accountant $500. And he was taking care of everything. Now, I have to collect data, struggle with turbotax ugly interface. Next year, I am going back to my accountant. My time is worth more than $200 bucks.
Big props to the state of New Mexico. Their online tax filing system was already pretty good last year, with a couple of rough edges. I went to file this year, and here was my experience:<p>1. login<p>2. enter my AGI from my federal return<p>3. enter my estimated taxes<p>4. done<p>Postscript: 36 hours later, refund in my bank account<p>I have no W2 income, am fully self-employed with no 1099's either. I had no capital gains/losses to report this year, but I have the feeling it would have been very easy to deal with that it had it been necessary.
The government's forcing them to give away their software and services for free. Why would they <i>not</i> fight against that?<p>Have the government give a $100 tax credit to all tax-paying citizens to pay for tax software. You keep competition and private industry and companies get paid for producing their products.
I was heavily considering using Turbo Tax a few years back until I learned about the various Free File options on the IRS. Previously, I was dumb enough to rely on those tax-preparation services despite my taxes being simple enough to do on my own... I was worried some of the options wouldn't be 'feature-complete' as I had some money earned from self-employment, but they were just as good (or better) than Turbo Tax despite the 'older' UI.<p>Even if you don't technically qualify for Free File, the fees are much lower there than what you would pay on Turbo Tax. For example on 1040Now filing a federal tax return when ineligible for Free File only is about $20. Intuit can crash and burn.
As someone who wanted to file taxes in Oregon this year without using anybody else's software, I was completely appalled by how inaccessible a system that literally every working American will have to interact with at some point is. They even got rid of the "Free Fillable Forms" option, so if you wanted to file and do your own taxes for yourself, you have to do the paper forms.<p>It's 2022, and I can't submit my government mandated math homework electronically as a private citizen. That should piss an incredible number of people off, but nobody ever seems to think about it.
I honestly find America's tax system to be one of the most bizarre things about the country, TurboTax shenanigans being part of that.<p>Every year around this time I'm reminded how lucky I am to have at least a somewhat sane and pain-free taxation system here in AU. Me filing a tax return involves bringing a folder of receipts, a page of notes, and handing them over to my accountant who charges me about $120 (tax deductible) the end result of which is I normally get a small refund from the ATO a couple of weeks later.
2 hours before deadling I figure I'll post my experience. I tried to use TaxSlayer to file an extension but it was slow my sessions keeps ending...over and over (same complaints on their Twitter).<p>I had an account on TurboTax as well...tried to file an extension. Well, at least their system is up and running and responsive. They tried to sell me "Premium" in the middle of it. No, I don't want premium because I won't be able to finish my taxes in 2 hours. Just file my damn extension. Thanks!
My 2nd biggest[*] gripe with TurboTax (and Intuit) is that their software quality is low!<p>I filed my taxes on January 30, and still can't print out my tax return. They tell me that the tax return is not "finalized" (or something like that), along with the "helpful" comment that usually forms are ready by end of January... it's April now, FFS!!<p>[*] Biggest gripe being their effort to undermine auto-filing.
This year I had my taxes done by a CPA rather than by TurboTax as I had in previous years, and I'm so glad I did. There was no deceptive upselling. I never got confused and had to go hunting around on the internet for the meaning of some obscure question. I got to keep more of my money than I expected, and I plan to do the same thing again next year.
A lot of people dislike turbotax, but compared to what? HR Block which is basically a payday advance company at this point? I've done my taxes with turbotax for awhile now and haven't had any major issues. Maybe they are evil, but not enough for me to care considering I use it for like an hour or two once a year.
I noticed that if you try to download a previous year's W-2, TurboTax will make you select "Why" before allowing you. One of the options is "considering an alternative tax software". Such an obvious dark pattern for retention.<p>Just lie and select "I need to fill out the FAFSA"
Blaming the current state of affairs solely on TurboTax is giving the Republican Party yet another free pass for their stated and explicit opposition to easily-filed taxes.
Afraid to ever use TurboTax after it put me into a multi-year audit cycle. I was also paying for maximally upgraded plan with all insurance and everything.
This whole situation is a depressing demonstration of the ratchet effect [1].<p>Intuit obviously doesn't want free filing. They'ee engaging in rent-seeking behaviour and free-filing would obviously hurt their business. Politicans are bought ("lobbied") for a pittance.<p>But the dirty little secret here is the complexity of the tax code. It's truly ridiculous. Everyone fights simplication of the tax code because every simplification will remove somebody's special exemption, write-off, accelerated depreciation schedule, tax credits and so on. Intuit loves this. The tax industry (not just Intuit) loves this: the more complex it is, the more money they make.<p>Worse, there's almost an institutional resistance to ANY simplification based pretty much on the slippery slope argument: well if they come for Acme Co's tax credits for not growing corn this week they might come for mine next week.<p>There's also an awful lot of dishonesty built into the system. Payroll and social security taxes are classified as "employer taxes" (in part at least). There are no employer taxes.<p>Simple example: Social Security is 6.2% on the employer and employee (up to a cap). So if you have a nominal income of $100,000, the employer is really paying you $106,200 and sending $12,400 to the Federal government.<p>Can't we just call this what it is?<p>And don't get me started on the bullshit that is the standard deducation.<p>In an ideal world, I'd like to see a consitutional amendment for universal basic income of $X per US citizen tax resident, a tax free income on the first $Y of personal income and just a flat rate tax beyond that. Congress gets to play with the values of X and Y.<p>I'm not holding my breath.<p>[1]: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratchet_effect" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratchet_effect</a>