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Spreadsheets are dreams (2015)

74 pointsby dhotsonabout 3 years ago

13 comments

bradrnabout 3 years ago
&gt; Every cell can contain text, data or formulae; every cell, row and column may be endlessly multiplied and referenced. These two qualities make spreadsheets an indeterminate material matrix — the textured all-over-ness of a Pollock painting. Or the empty space of a desert landscape in whose expansive lines could be written every story.<p>&gt; Spreadsheets can render scenarios with total variability, but the complexity needed to turn every product, object, idea or structure in a spreadsheet into a twiddlable dial or live display often suffocates the insight in a sandstorm of choking numbers. …<p>There seem to be quite a few recent tools which try to solve this problem by replacing the grid paradigm with something a bit more structured. The main ones I’m aware of are <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;inflex.io&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;inflex.io&#x2F;</a> and <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.trymito.io&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.trymito.io&#x2F;</a>, but there are many more, and I even had a go at making one myself. I’m not optimistic about their chances in general, though. Traditional spreadsheet UIs are immensely flexible, and great for small calculations and anything involving tables or lists. They also happen to be utterly awful at anything even remotely large-scale, but by the time people figure that out, it’s usually too late to switch as the sunk-cost fallacy kicks in.<p>On the other hand, what are the alternatives? Programming languages require a fairly significant expenditure of effort to learn, and don’t give nearly the amount of interactivity that spreadsheets do. Even environments like Jupyter notebooks, or the MATLAB IDE, don’t come close. Besides, in the hands of the unskilled — and even the skilled, really — programs for data analysis can become nearly as messy as spreadsheets, especially with popular languages like Python and MATLAB.<p>For these reasons, though I utterly despise spreadsheets, I am also beginning to despair of ever successfully replacing them with something better: spreadsheets are just too convenient, so why would anyone use anything else? Excel is always going to be more convenient in the moment than any more principled tool, precisely because it is infinitely flexible and has no restrictions. People don’t like friction in their UX when they just want to do a few calculations. There is an avenue to wide usage for tools like Mito (linked above), which give programmers a more spreadsheet-like interface, and so integrate nicely into workflows which already exist. But this approach is in itself limiting; I want a tool I can open and use <i>right now</i>, not one where I have to make a whole new Python environment and notebook and so on just to do a simple calculation. Alas, I see no way to get wide adoption, or perhaps even adoption by myself, for any ‘better spreadsheet’ implementation.
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jmullabout 3 years ago
Beautiful piece. A poem in parts.<p>I think spreadsheets are one of the most powerful mind-extensions people developed from the Information Age.<p>But as far as they can take you, it&#x27;s worth remembering they&#x27;re only extending our human minds, going in the direction we point them. They labor only for the narratives we set them to and fail according to our own misconceptions.
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kwhitefootabout 3 years ago
The problem with spreadsheets is that they are a straitjacket for many of the users who don&#x27;t realize that there are so often better ways of achieving their ends.
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jnwatsonabout 3 years ago
Another way to put it: Excel is the leading tool to author boring science fiction.
janciabout 3 years ago
Sure, nightmares qualify as dreams.
jesprenjabout 3 years ago
That drawing reminds me of a C script I wrote to convert a PGM image into a spreadsheet (fods) (:<p>I can&#x27;t find the actual script, but here are two images:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;1507103400&#x2F;krneki&#x2F;stalin.fods" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;1507103400&#x2F;krneki&#x2F;stalin.fods</a> <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;1507103400&#x2F;krneki&#x2F;stalin.xlsx" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;1507103400&#x2F;krneki&#x2F;stalin.xlsx</a> <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;1507103400&#x2F;krneki&#x2F;lena.fods" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;1507103400&#x2F;krneki&#x2F;lena.fods</a> <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;1507103400&#x2F;krneki&#x2F;lena.xlsx" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;1507103400&#x2F;krneki&#x2F;lena.xlsx</a><p>XLSX versions are both less than 2 MiB, while FODS uncompressed XML plaintext are around 30 MiB (:
fatih-erikliabout 3 years ago
Here&#x27;s a 3 model rendered in a spreadsheet <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs.google.com&#x2F;spreadsheets&#x2F;d&#x2F;19Lg8icHa-F0NlGPC5W1H2P4cwYUwxl5dw0pFr5nqgf4" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;docs.google.com&#x2F;spreadsheets&#x2F;d&#x2F;19Lg8icHa-F0NlGPC5W1H...</a>
dangabout 3 years ago
Discussed at the time:<p><i>Spreadsheets are dreams</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=10569155" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=10569155</a> - Nov 2015 (12 comments)
Mikeb85about 3 years ago
I&#x27;m not the biggest spreadsheet fan but they do make data easy to understand for people who don&#x27;t understand data or programming. You can have a visual representation of the data itself with the mathematical formulas and results all on one page. They also make entering data easy. Being able to just whip up a spreadsheet in a few minutes to show calculations to someone who isn&#x27;t tech or math savvy is useful.<p>That being said, for my own purposes I&#x27;d rather use a programming language + file&#x2F;database representation of the data.
pete_nicabout 3 years ago
Spreadsheets are one of the most ubiquitous business tools in the world. Similar to email, another ubiquitous business tool, there are good uses and bad uses of the tool. Users need to know when to use them, when to not use them, and when to move onto something more robust.<p>&gt; So they’re at their best when you have a foundation to build on — a decent number of fixed assumptions atop which you want to see the effect over time or scale of a limited number of variables. See the myriad permutations proliferate from a small number of questions.
BiteCode_devabout 3 years ago
<p><pre><code> ... I&#x27;m adding A1 and the 7C Everybody&#x27;s looking to SUM() things</code></pre>
boiledropeabout 3 years ago
Concrete poetry
aarondiaabout 3 years ago
In the spirit of dreams and poetry:<p>__________________<p>Spreadsheets are my desired cuisine. Excel the dish I adore.<p>But fill it up with too many ingredients, and you’ll find Excel on the floor.<p>It happens all the more frequent now, as my grocery store is now a warehouse<p>So I pound my fists and curse and yell, and leave Excel in the guesthouse.<p>Lost without Excel, in a ‘landscape where nothing officially exists’<p>I saw a single cell appear above the dune in a hazy mist<p>Running up the dune, the grid displayed with all its might<p>A new spreadsheet designed for my growing appetite.<p>__________________<p>I’m one of the founders of Mito [1] (and a very bad poet). Like Spreadsheets are Dreams discusses, we believe that spreadsheets are the most powerful low-code tool because of their versatility to capture the simplicity or complexity of nearly any analysis.<p>As my poem tries to highlight, existing spreadsheet tools like Excel are not designed for today’s growing data sets. Today&#x27;s spreadsheets should help users leverage their Excel skills while upgrading to a more robust and powerful environment like Python.<p>Mito is a spreadsheet extension to your Jupyter environment. You can display any Pandas dataframe as a spreadsheet, and edit it in a very similar way to Excel. For each edit you make, it generates the corresponding Python code below for those edits. Practically, you can think about Mito as recording a macro, but instead of generating VBA code, it generates Python.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.trymito.io&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.trymito.io&#x2F;</a>