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No, America is not collapsing

70 pointsby jinjin2about 3 years ago

22 comments

bmitcabout 3 years ago
I think &quot;muddling&quot; in the subtitle is a key point, because that&#x27;s exactly how things are going. These reversions, due to in effect religious fundamentalism and pandering to what I only <i>hope</i> are minority crowds emboldened by gerrymandering and the electoral college, are concerning. The U.S. will continue to stagnate if all we ever discuss and rabble about are fringe issues. Why is abortion literally a major topic in every presidential election over decades? Abortion is a tough issue no matter what, and so a compromise is needed. There will never be a totally clean solution. Why are people so damn concerned with decisions others make? In Texas, last time I looked, <i>anybody</i> can initiate a lawsuit against a doctor on abortion related issues, making doctors frozen due to legal worries and even reverting to communicating on paper notes that they then throw away. It&#x27;s insane. We&#x27;re taking decision making from the educated and giving it to the uneducated.<p>Education in the country is a major concern and has domino effects that take decades to correct, but the more the less educated come into power, the harder it gets to revert. And we&#x27;re trending in the wrong direction.<p>I also think the section on inequality is greatly misleading. Inequality keeps getting worse and worse by basically any measure. Picking out any data over the past two years is likely to be very, very biased, because the economy has been wildly swinging back and forth. Data can be picked to basically back up any position. The middle class is getting absolutely hammered by taxes while the rich just keep on keeping on in a tax-free world not experienced by others.<p>&gt; Bloomberg reports that the world’s richest 500 people have lost a total of $1 trillion this year.<p>I can&#x27;t view the article, but aren&#x27;t those &quot;losses&quot; likely to be paper losses, i.e., unrealized losses? When lower and middle class people have losses, they are realized. People lose jobs, money, homes, etc. Rich people &quot;losing&quot; money in the various markets and their investments continue to reap dividends and other monetary gains and will eventually recuperate.<p>Articles like this are akin to burying one&#x27;s head in the sand and consist of cherry-picked data to say everything&#x27;s okay.
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pjc50about 3 years ago
The political unrest is increasing, though. The risk of an election being rigged, overturned, or having the losing party refuse to acknowledge the result <i>and have parts of the state acceed to that</i> is much higher than comfortable levels.<p>When you see a system that fails through four levels of safeties, and is stopped by a fifth, do you see that as &quot;good the system is working&quot; or &quot;we need to re-examine the first set of safeties&quot;?
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waterlawabout 3 years ago
Lost me at wages keeping up with inflation.<p>In Canada (unrelated to article, but similar.) I&#x27;d need a 16% raise to keep pace with inflation. Since 52% tax bracket.<p>Meanwhile homeowners do nothing and have tax-free returns. Yearly returns larger than my net salary.<p>Collapse is a matter of perspective. Being in the working class sucks and everyone knows it.<p>This is a much better article:<p>Collapse Won’t Reset Society <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;palladiummag.com&#x2F;2022&#x2F;04&#x2F;11&#x2F;collapse-wont-reset-society&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;palladiummag.com&#x2F;2022&#x2F;04&#x2F;11&#x2F;collapse-wont-reset-soci...</a>
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sutureabout 3 years ago
He says America is not collapsing despite the failed coup and the growing chorus of people who perceive things are fundamentally wrong within the country. He talks about the economy and in this case it’s not about the economy. It’s about soon living in a country where in one state you can do something that is legal while in another state you can be executed for it. It’s about living in a country in which voting rights have systemically been watered down and in which neither the House or Senate has proportional representation. We are entering a period of religious minority rule.<p>The sum of these things indicates that absent major structural reforms in how apportionment occurs indicates that a breakup is a realistic outcome.
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jleyankabout 3 years ago
No, but rather than being united to face an external threat it’s disunited to deal with imagined or self-constructed internal threats. It’s moved from a manufacturing to a post-manufacturing society, concentrating on finance, information and consumption. Basically recapitulating the uk in the Victorian and Edwardian periods (complete with morality concerns). Backwards-looking, growing more conservative countries are not the most appealing to the young or the economically mobile.<p>See Paul Kennedy “decline and fall of the great powers”.
pixelatedindexabout 3 years ago
As someone who has been reading about the stoic philosophy recently, this article has a good sense of the “discipline of assent”, where we should not be caught up in the storm of illogical and emotional thinking. A lot of doomerism that’s prevalent these days (on both sides of the political spectrum, to a lesser or greater degree) really try to prey on our irrational or emotional aspect of how we react to events around us (which is further compounded by how easy and fast information travel).<p>All that to say, this was a good read - so thank you for posting.
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eatonphilabout 3 years ago
The more that I read of (US) history the less extremely worried I am. Maybe I should be more worried about climate change. But other than that, we&#x27;ve been doing crazy stupid stuff, some evil stuff, some good stuff for a long time. Yet the general trend has been to become more democratic, more socialist, more multi-ethnic&#x2F;multi-cultural, more scientific, etc. I&#x27;m not defending any of the bad parts historically or that still exist today, just trying to understand better what the US is and was. I think that this is a good article reminding everyone of all of this.
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qalmakkaabout 3 years ago
&gt; America is not collapsing<p>That what they were also saying about the USSR and look how it went.<p>To be clear, I don&#x27;t think the USA will collapse soon because I do not have the necessary skills to assess a claim like that. The one thing I think everyone gives too much credit to is our own ability to foresee events such as a country collapsing.<p>How human crowds behave is notoriously very hard to predict, and people have a tendency to retcon their historical perception of events in order to justify what has just happened. Just look at the USSR, where the majority of experts in Russology scoffed at the idea that the Soviet regime was going to collapse, yet it did and afterwards everyone was like &quot;well, that&#x27;s obvious!&quot;. If the USA were to collapse tomorrow, future historians would probably point at things such as the current Supreme Court composition and the divide between political lines as the inevitable, unstoppable factors behind it.<p>IMHO except the fact that every Empire some day inevitably falls, how and when countries implode is often too complex to predict, so most of these discussions about the impending (or lack of) doom of a polity basically boil down to white noise or fiction.
gazeabout 3 years ago
The fact that Noah is saying this means America is absolutely collapsing.
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paganelabout 3 years ago
Not so sure about that, for the first time in my adult life (I&#x27;m in my early 40s, I&#x27;ve been reading the &quot;serious&quot; print media on and off for about 20 years now) I saw a magazine like <i>The Economist</i> seriously suggesting that the State governors ignoring a Supreme Court decision might actually happen and, on top of that (and the thing which made it interesting for me), that there was nothing wrong with that (or at least that seemed like the subtext of the article to me).<p>Again, this was the first time for me reading in a MSM entity that a decision&#x2F;action that would de facto mean the (at least) partial dissolution of the idea of the United States would not mean the end of the world.<p>Dark times ahead.<p>(if it matters I&#x27;m not from the US nor have I set foot in there, but I do love the country and I have been trying to read the most that I could find when it came to its history and its institutions).
erellsworthabout 3 years ago
I have a hard time taking this seriously when it doesn&#x27;t even the biggest mention climate change. Talk to me when Lake Powell stops being able to generate electricity and the West coast runs out of water.
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mgh2about 3 years ago
Good example of the disparity between public perception vs. reality - subjective and qualitative vs. objective and quantitative data.
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nivenkosabout 3 years ago
The US is about to become wealthier than ever with the new LNG exports to Europe and the lend lease terms, etc.
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ipnonabout 3 years ago
Everytime I wonder if we&#x27;re doomed I just remember we were locked in mortal combat with ourselves only 140 years ago. Sociopolitical relations seem absolutely rosy in comparison! America has been through a lot (to put it mildly), this is far from the worst of our historical challenges.
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rkk3about 3 years ago
&gt; my Latin teacher told me that America was declining and falling just like Rome, and that was back in 1995<p>&gt; No, America is not collapsing<p>A collapse is different than a protracted decline and fall.<p>Historians could make a lot of similar points about Rome still being a successful superpower in the 3rd, 4th or even 5th century AD.
logicalmonsterabout 3 years ago
I can&#x27;t exactly predict the future other than giving my opinion about the divisions and what I suspect is going to happen, but historically speaking, even the strongest empires ultimately get displaced by other powers and collapse. I&#x27;m sure there were Moscow-based Communist writers who wrote things towards the end of the Soviet system writing about how the CCCP would reign forever. I&#x27;m sure there were some Roman historians towards the end writing about how the Empire would be eternal.
immigrantheartabout 3 years ago
There are people who believe that America is collapsing if Roe v Wade isn’t overturned.
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mywittynameabout 3 years ago
It will happen gradually, then suddenly. I suspect there&#x27;s a lot more discontent with the country than people are recognizing. I&#x27;d be curious to hear peoples&#x27; honest opinion on the maintaining the union, because I do think that a large number of Americans from both political parties are increasingly considering a break up to be the only real solution.<p>Climate change is a substantial omission here: forest fires and droughts in the west, heat waves&#x2F;cold snaps in the south, increasing floods and hurricanes in the south east. Those are drastically changing the population landscape of the country.<p>Then there&#x27;s the whole change with SALT deductions. This was a lot more insidious than a lot of people credit it with being. The long-term effects are hard to predict.<p>We are going to see a repeat of 2020 in 2024. Except this time, it will probably be successful. Will the next president continue trade wars against allies? Successfully withdraw from NATO? Again make military aid contingent upon corruption? Actively target &quot;left wing&quot; people with laws that allow them to be arrested, robbed, and have their children taken away?<p>I think this article undersells how incredibly precarious our democracy is right now. I genuinely feel like I&#x27;ll see the end of the USA in my lifetime. I just hope it is a peaceful dissolution.
dncornholioabout 3 years ago
All I see is 2 tweets from random Karens and we need a blogpost for them?
chubotabout 3 years ago
I tend to ignore the &quot;endless screeching&quot;, and I&#x27;ve long had an optimistic world view somewhat aligned with say Steven Pinker -- we&#x27;re living through the best times, roughly monotonic progress, with some temporary setbacks.<p>But this recent video by Ray Dalio made me think a lot, and led me to his books: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=xguam0TKMw8" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=xguam0TKMw8</a><p><i>Principles for Dealing with the Changing World Order</i><p>He did a bunch of quantitative research and came up with a model for the prosperity of countries, and &quot;the world order&quot;.<p>In the model, there were 4 world leaders at various points: Dutch, British, Americans, and Chinese. The basic pattern is that they were productive and industrious, gained military power, and grew to hold the world&#x27;s reserve concurrency.<p>After they hold the world&#x27;s reserve concurrency, they stop being as productive. The rich parents can bend the rules and corrupt society for their kids.<p>And there is more internal conflict about how to divvy up a fixed or declining pie. There can be more external conflict once rivals see weakness. In Dalio&#x27;s view, China is obviously on the rise economically, and you also see signs of their increased military power.<p>There is more to it than that -- see the video and books, but that&#x27;s my short summary.<p>-----<p>It sounds a little too &quot;clean&quot;, but after some reflection, a lot of it is hard to argue with. (I&#x27;d definitely be interested in criticisms -- this presentation &#x2F; framing is pretty new.)<p>This doesn&#x27;t mean America is &quot;collapsing&quot;. But I would now say it&#x27;s clearly &quot;declining&quot;. Our energies are directed more at fighting amongst ourselves than producing things.<p>It always boggled my mind that everything we buy is made in China -- how could that not have an effect? Well it does appear that having the world&#x27;s reserve concurrency is a huge advantage. That was established long ago, before we were born, and now we&#x27;re coasting off of it.<p>But then again, Britain and the Netherlands &quot;declined&quot; and they seem to be doing OK. They lost their empires, but they recovered to some degree of civilized society and prosperity.<p>And I&#x27;m pretty sure I would not want to live in China right now, e.g. especially with what I hear about the COVID lockdowns. (even though I&#x27;m ethnically Chinese)<p>But yeah I think I need to take the idea of decline a lot more seriously. I think the blog post is also &quot;overcorrecting&quot; from the screeching. I think what decline looks like is a bunch of little collapses in all areas of life, and people endlessly arguing about it, while doing little to correct it.
incomingpainabout 3 years ago
An opinion piece written by a rabbit?<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bigthink.com&#x2F;the-present&#x2F;5-reasons-why-america-will-not-fall-like-the-roman-empire&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bigthink.com&#x2F;the-present&#x2F;5-reasons-why-america-will-...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2022&#x2F;01&#x2F;13&#x2F;opinion&#x2F;america-falling-apart.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2022&#x2F;01&#x2F;13&#x2F;opinion&#x2F;america-falling-a...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.news.com.au&#x2F;finance&#x2F;economy&#x2F;world-economy&#x2F;four-signs-america-is-a-failing-state-warning-about-the-future-of-the-us&#x2F;news-story&#x2F;5474ea6eba60bd42b97704b3efb79d69" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.news.com.au&#x2F;finance&#x2F;economy&#x2F;world-economy&#x2F;four-s...</a><p>The contemporary assertion that america is collapsing is well established by the entire political spectrum as well as objective observers internationally.<p>&gt;I realize that to a large extent, “doomerism”, as the kids call it, is just self-expression. We just went through a massive pandemic that killed a million of us, we had an era of riots and coup attempts and random acts of terrorism, crime is high, inflation is eating away at people’s paychecks and savings, and there are rumblings of major war from overseas.<p>That is the collapse... you just proved it&#x27;s happening. There has been 2 years of racial unrest and so far minor insurrections.<p>&gt;Nor do I want to deny that the country faces real risks. If WW3 starts, that’ll be a calamity. We could also have a civil war in 2024-5 over a disputed presidential election result. It’s even possible that inflation could spiral out of control and turn us into Venezuela.<p>Midterms are this year and we are going into another summer of racial unrest. It&#x27;s inevitable another black person is killed by police brutality who doesnt get punished because of immunity. If the food shortages happen you&#x27;re going to have riots which are hungry. BLM is only popular during elections and midterms are this year.<p>&gt;The economy is not collapsing<p>Your first graph shows no peak since 2000? How terrible. Prime age working and there hasnt been a peak since 2000?<p>&gt;Once we control for the Baby Boomer retirement by looking only at the “prime age” population between 25 and 54,<p>Because why? What does the boomer graph look like? Really bad eh? I know you looked and chose not to include.<p>Wage growth tracker also peaked around 2000. 2 decades of failure?<p>&gt;Yes, we had some huge protests and riots in 2020. Yes, crime is way up. We even had a (shambolic, ridiculous, halfhearted) coup attempt. Yes, there’s even a slight danger that a disputed 2024 election could lead to civil war. I do not deny any of these things.<p>Is this post meant to be sarcastic and it doesn&#x27;t read like it? I assume your &#x27;coup&#x27; attempt was Jan 6... the weaponless trespassing for a couple hours? Not a very good coup is it. Or are you referring the multiple insurrection autonomous zones that existed for days to weeks? <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Capitol_Hill_Occupied_Protest" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Capitol_Hill_Occupied_Protest</a><p>This roe vs wade thing is because of #metoo. It&#x27;s only vaguely part of the collapse. Men vs women(and however incels fit in) isn&#x27;t majorly part of the polarization and collapse.
rvzabout 3 years ago
Well said and explained. Constant hysteria, screeching, panic, outrage and doomerisim towards thinking <i>&#x27;America is collapsing&#x27;</i> is yet another downward spiral towards demoralising each other into believing nonsense like this especially when the media likes feeding them the same garbage on every outrage event.<p>Next thing you know, they will find a new villain of the month to screech at and cause outrage towards.
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