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Please, don't build another Large Hadron Collider

362 pointsby khaled_ismaeelalmost 3 years ago

55 comments

japanuspusalmost 3 years ago
As a low-energy quantum physicist, I completely agree: Experimental high-energy physics has become primarily an industrial subsidy scheme[1], and if we want the highest chance of reaching a grand unified theory, it seems the money would be much better spent elsewhere (cosmology, space-based observatories, research positions for young physicists without publish-or-perish incentives to run for the latest fad).<p>The short history of physics in TFA is spot on: Einstein and the quantum pioneers added abstractions to build physical theories with prediction power, whereas current high-energy physics theory seems to be mostly a mathematical exercise. This has been confirmed by numerous insiders, including by Hossenfelder as mentioned in the article, and Lee Smolin (&quot;The trouble with physics&quot;) who is also a theoretical physicist.<p>Things have changed a lot since accelerators became a must-have for high-energy physics: Today we have detectors and computing power that let us observe the natural experiment of the universe with a precision and diligence that would be impossible when LHC was commissioned. I find it much more likely that we would learn new physics by giving 10-year grants to 1000 young physicist of revolutionary spirit, and let them use the tools they could build themselves, than by handing that money to the old guard which has produced nothing of significance for the last two generations.<p>[1]: The industrial subsidy angle is not touched upon in TFA, but it is clear that there is a large number of people and companies making a good living from mega-physics, and talking to colleagues in the field, I get the distinct impression that it is not always they physicist walking in the front when asking for more machines.
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BrandoElFollitoalmost 3 years ago
As someone who did their PhD at CERN - I agree.<p>The place is fantastic, you get to meet great people and life is cool.<p>But what you are working on is completely useless for humanity. Knowing that there is a quantum foam is knowledge that brings us nowhere. If someone could answer to this &quot;and so what?&quot; in a meaningful way I would be glad to change my mind. For the time being, the energy scale we are making these discoveries is not useful.<p>&quot;yes, but this is fundamental science...&quot; → yes it is, but where does this fundamental science helps in everyday problems? Have we had a case where the Higgs boson changed anything in our life?<p>The quantum mechanics of the 1920&#x27;s changed our everyday world. We could build a whole technology on it, and understand things that changes our everyday life. Is there a comparable impact on knowing that the Higgs boson is +&#x2F;- 10^-9 (or whatever) aligned with the theoretical model?<p>We have so many problems where physics is needed (energy production to start with, and then exploring biology), the money should go there instead. Even if it means having less particle physicists the same way we have less philosophes.
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popinman322almost 3 years ago
The LHC&#x27;s development produced a number of new technologies (e.g. radiation resistant microcontrollers, and gas electron multipliers). Could the next generation produce more, valuable tech?<p>I also don&#x27;t have the expertise to tell whether the article is being overly reductive with the project&#x27;s goals: are there other questions (besides new particles) that can only be answered with a larger collider? The summary of the FCC (Future Circular Collider) project&#x27;s goals indicates that yes, there are unresolved questions that the FCC will address[0].<p>[0]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;link.springer.com&#x2F;article&#x2F;10.1140&#x2F;epjc&#x2F;s10052-019-6904-3" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;link.springer.com&#x2F;article&#x2F;10.1140&#x2F;epjc&#x2F;s10052-019-69...</a>
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mehrdadaalmost 3 years ago
Cannot disagree more. &quot;Making a car is expensive, so let&#x27;s not do that to explore 1000 miles out. Let&#x27;s just have 1000 people walk one mile and explore.&quot; Simply ridiculous comparison. But sure, let&#x27;s find a way to build&#x2F;experiment LHC++ less expensively.<p>What&#x27;s concerning to me, however, is the attitude towards curiosity that this article exhibits. They should rename their domain to smallthink.com.
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captainmuonalmost 3 years ago
As a former experimental particle physicist, I don&#x27;t think string theory or supersymmetry is going to be a description of nature. I say that despite spending a couple of years searching for SUSY. But I still think the cost of building a LHC++ (that is, the FCC or the SPPC) is justified. The current theoretical &quot;dead end&quot; or maybe swamp fundamental physics is in is precisely due to a lack of data.<p>Of course, there are a lot of smaller experiments that one could do, also in particle physics, that have great value. One example was the Muon g-2 measurement, another is anything neutrino physics. We can get a lot of interesting input and test our theories without going to the &quot;energy frontier&quot;. Physicists understand this very well. But there are a bunch of questions that you can only really answer if you go to those higer energies.<p>As for the costs, 100 billion is a lot, but not when you compare it to other large infrastructure projects, or especially military spending (and note the Chinese proposal SPPC would be a lot cheaper!). I think if we could shave off 100 billion of military expenses and put it into basic research, it would be a great win for society. That&#x27;s not realistic you say, with all the threats out there? Great, I agree, but now we have a nice project! Lets put as a common goal that we want to be able to do this kind of research, <i>and then improve our societies nationally and globally</i> so that we can reduce our military spending and do this kind of research.<p>100 billion ($&#x2F;€) is the amount that Germany is spending as a special budget in response to Russia&#x27;s aggression, in order to become the nation with the 3rd highest military spending on the planet. If it weren&#x27;t for the war in Ukraine, we could put it all into such a project.<p>If we had averted COVID in it&#x27;s early stages - like we did with SARS-1 and MERS - imagine all the resources we could have put into research instead.
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oyomanalmost 3 years ago
I think people needs to put a bit of perspective on this :<p>the FCC is a project for the next 70 years. It is supposed to be operational after 2040 at the earliest if I recall correctly (20 years from now more or less), and to run for around 40 years.<p>So if you do a very simplistic calculation on the first 20 years : 100 B euros over 20 years over 20 countries (there is 23 member states into the CERN) it is 250 M euros &#x2F; year &#x2F; country. This is not even calculated on the over-all project time, on on the different steps that will be happening: first FCC as electron-positron collider and then much later FCC hadron-hadron collider.<p>And if you are really interested into the previewed outcomes (scientifically and new techs associated):<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;indico.cern.ch&#x2F;event&#x2F;1040535&#x2F;timetable&#x2F;#20220503.detailed" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;indico.cern.ch&#x2F;event&#x2F;1040535&#x2F;timetable&#x2F;#20220503.det...</a><p>You can take look at the European research communities symposium that just happened recently on the future of the research topics in Europe. There are a lot of information for FCC and so on.
yccs27almost 3 years ago
I feel like this article does not discuss the real reasons why LHC++ would or would not be a success. It absolutely depends on whether you expect it to provide tangible evidence of new physics; that is, physics beyond the standard model. It&#x27;s easy to say &quot;high-energy physics has become highly academic and mathematical&quot;, but if it provided results there wouldn&#x27;t be a problem with that. Mathematical beauty has proven unreasonably effective at driving innovation in physics [1], and cutting-edge research being academic is nothing new.<p>The fundamental problem for high-energy physics seems to be the &quot;tyranny of the standard model&quot;, as one of my professors called it. We know that our current model of fundamental particles must be incomplete towards extremely high energies (trillions of TeV), because it conflicts with general relativity. However, almost all experimental results are consistent with the standard model. There are some barely-significant [2] results from muon spin and W-boson experiments, but the effect sizes are minuscule and and two data-points are in no way enough to guide new theory development.<p>This leaves theorists with almost no experimental input, so they pursue purely mathematical ideas that are in some way elegant, able to describe the standard model as a low-energy limit, and in some cases include a description of gravity as well. But the more advanced and theoretical the ideas get, the more difficult it gets to make experimental predictions. The ones which predict non-standard-model measurements with current equipment are already ruled out anyway, because <i>we did the measurements</i> and the standard model just keeps getting validated.<p>So what should we do? We can hope that a larger collider will find new evidence of beyond-standard-model physics, but (as I understand it) there is no concrete reason why there has to be anything interesting in the newly-accessible energy region.<p>[1] As just one example from particle physics: Gell-Mann&#x27;s &quot;Eightfold Way&quot;, which uses advanced representation theory to describe hadrons and was successful at predicting new particles: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Eightfold_way_(physics)" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Eightfold_way_(physics)</a> [2] Note that high-energy physics has an extremely high standard of significance at 5 sigma, so it&#x27;s not comparable to &quot;barely significant&quot; in the social sciences.
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rlpbalmost 3 years ago
My understanding is that most (or at least many) very significant scientific discoveries were serendipitous. They were discovered while looking for something else. So statements like &quot;When you don’t have much to go on, and limited resources, it’s better to aim at problems that you know are out there. Those things will lead you to new discoveries.&quot; don&#x27;t make sense to me.<p>I&#x27;d find this article and its opinion more credible if it could point out how this didn&#x27;t apply to the LHC. Was every discovery and technology that came out of the LHC predicted in advance? If not, then this argument fails.
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Havocalmost 3 years ago
&gt; What it could discover is entirely speculative.<p>Thats the point of discovery and arguably a point in favour of doing this
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throw457almost 3 years ago
Ah... the yearly bigthink article that we should stop funding other experiments and put everything into fusion.
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rvieiraalmost 3 years ago
Driven by this post, out of curiosity I started looking at the price tag of some mega-projects around the world.<p>Interestingly, the most expensive ones are almost always highway systems. Can someone briefly explain why? I&#x27;m my naive view it&#x27;s mostly asphalt and terrain work.
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_ph_almost 3 years ago
I think the question whether to build a new collider deserves more than a simple &quot;yes&quot; and &quot;no&quot;. Indeed, it looks as if particle physics right now is a bit in a dead end, there are no obvious and imminent discoveries to be expected from such an instrument. And with the enormous amount of money it would require, a lot of other experiments could be financed, which short term are much more likely to advance science. On the other side, I unless there is evidence that we cannot discover any more by building a new collider, we shouldn&#x27;t just stop research into that direction. We don&#x27;t know what lies there and might be missing the true discoveries to be made. Also, these colliders do finance a lot of science around them. Just designing and building them fills plenty of thesises and papers. A lot of adjacent science is involved. Detector design, data processing just to name a few. The web we are using has been invented at CERN :)<p>Consequently, the cost trade-off isn&#x27;t as clear-cut as the article might make it sound. Which for me leads to the obvious answer: yes, we should build another, larger collider. But probably not right now. There should be plenty of funding for the current one and also quite a bit of theoretical preparation before it is getting planned&#x2F;built. In this time, other projects should get priority funding. But eventually, we should build another collider. We should never stop researching.
wasmitnetzenalmost 3 years ago
Government finances don&#x27;t work the same way as other finances. A normally functioning democracy can basically invent as much money as it needs to (see Covid relief packages). If there&#x27;s political will to do an LHC++, three ITERs and two ISS&#x27;s, the money will appear. If there&#x27;s opposition to the LHC++ and it gets scrapped, that doesn&#x27;t mean that the funds will be re-allocated. They will just disappear.
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r3x_malmost 3 years ago
I&#x27;m just a layman who loves physics, but this article does make a point. The LHC was built to definitively prove or disapprove <i>existing</i> theoretical models, like the Higgs boson. If the exponential increasing of cost of the LHC++ can&#x27;t even promise new proofs or discoveries, then isn&#x27;t that money better spent on other scientific experiments that will advance science? I&#x27;d have no problem with Europe spending that money on the Laser Interferometer Space Antenna (LISA), or many other projects.
ivanbalmost 3 years ago
Yeah, no. Only LHC can generate particle events in a highly controllable environment with enough energy. In physics there are energy thresholds. Below a certain level of energy a certain event just never happens.<p>The low hanging fruit of discovering new physics looks like this. Build a bigger machine to collide particles with even more energy. Observe what comes out. It&#x27;s a clear direction. Just throw money at the problem and get a result.
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throwawayffffasalmost 3 years ago
I completely disagree, 100 billion might sound like a lot of money, but it&#x27;s not. It&#x27;s going to take like 20 years to build&#x2F;assemble right? That&#x27;s like 5 billion a year the EU GDP is 17.9 trillion per year. It&#x27;s worth it just to keep all these physicists and engineers employed.
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elashrialmost 3 years ago
I read the article and wondered where the author got the next hadron collider to be LHC++ and how he got this estimation for the cost. Anyway I remember that a couple of years ago I was talking with my of my professors and he mentioned LHC++ which was a OOP software environment proposed (1).<p>Anyway as someone inside experimental HEP field, I would encourage anyone who wants to understand more about finding and ideas to try to follow up the snowmass process as an example on how the dynamics of funding and new ideas for the future forms, discussed and gets priorities (at least in US)<p>Snowmass process is basically a series of meeting for the US HEP community where they discuss the US strategy and funding requests for the coming decade. the last one was in 2014 and now this process which takes about 3 years (probably more this time thanks to covid). It is really insightful but technical in nature but try to read more about it and the final report that gets to DOE committee to act as advisory guideline from the community.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cds.cern.ch&#x2F;record&#x2F;451601&#x2F;files&#x2F;p59.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cds.cern.ch&#x2F;record&#x2F;451601&#x2F;files&#x2F;p59.pdf</a>
rektidealmost 3 years ago
It&#x27;s a good case made here. I don&#x27;t disagree. But what it raises is interesting &amp; challenging:<p>&gt; <i>There are many known problems in physics right now. $100 billion could fund (quite literally) 100,000 smaller physics experiments. There may not be enough physics labs on Earth to carry out that many experiments!</i><p>It&#x27;s amazing &amp; a bit problematic how big-biased we are. For reference, LHC cost a bit under $5B by compare. I have a hard time imagining what it would take to get $5B in funding for physics. How much effort would each physics project have to spend to go get funding, versus how much time did it take the LHC to get funding?<p>I really like the idea of diversity, of a range of medium &amp; small projects. But it feels like structurally we are disposed towards bigger higher ticket tasks. That once the ball is rolling, once there&#x27;s critical mass, we can get the checkbooks opening. But by compare the channels for getting small &amp; medium funding is more case by case, that large pools of money aren&#x27;t as available or accessible.
throwaway14356almost 3 years ago
The &quot;who should decide&quot; question i find the most interesting.<p>It&#x27;s one of the rare setups where i lack thé arrogance to think my opinion would be relevant. (That said, if the goal was to burn the funds with minimal progress I couldn&#x27;t imagine a better tool than the LHC BWANDO corporation.)<p>If the tax payer is to fund the effort perhaps their opinion should have some non-zero influence on the choice?<p>Im not entirely against theoretical efforts (which is like my opinion) but to alienate clearly productive effort under some &quot;let industries do it&quot; banner seems several bridges to far. Maybe the other way around: let industries decide. would be less sensless.<p>useful things like wind solar wave tidal energy, clean water, agriculture etc all directly compete for the funds.<p>Wait, i know. Lets spend an insane amount of money to research what we should be funding. Im sure we can figure out howmany apples an orange is worth.
Animatsalmost 3 years ago
But build medium-sized synchrotrons for IC fabs.[1]<p>That paper describes a design for a 160 meter ring synchrotron to produce &quot;extreme ultraviolet&quot; for IC fabs in the 7nm and below range. Some large research accelerators have been used for that experimentally, including SLAC at Stanford. So the concept is known to work. It just needs to come down in price and size.<p>ASML&#x27;s tin-vaporization light source, which is a mechanical and optical nightmare made to work by throwing a few billion dollars at it, is the current technology.<p>This may be how China leapfrogs the West in IC technology.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nature.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;s41598-022-07323-z" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nature.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;s41598-022-07323-z</a>
sandworm101almost 3 years ago
Ok, we don&#x27;t want to another LHC as a physics experiment, but what about all the engineering coming out of such projects? From superconductors to data science, the LHS has done lots of new stuff. Whether the core science experiments succeeds or fails might be beside the point. There are other outcomes to such projects than pure science answers. One can argue that the ISS hasn&#x27;t produced much science, but without that space station we probably wouldn&#x27;t have seen nearly as much progress in lowering the costs of accessing space.<p>The link between CERN and the web is a great example of something that had nothing to do with the core science but was certainly worth more than the investment.
DeathArrowalmost 3 years ago
Science costs. Big science costs more. So let&#x27;s not do big sciences, let&#x27;s do some small science. :D
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bjornsingalmost 3 years ago
I fully agree. I’d even go one step further: don’t spend that 100 billion on physics at all. That’s taxpayer money that actually can be spent on feeding the hungry. That’s the humane thing to do, and I bet a much better investment in science too, since those hungry will have a chance to become scientists.<p>PS. I have a masters in engineering physics and several friends who are physicists. I’m also a science nerd. But I still think this is the right thing to do.
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cm2187almost 3 years ago
I am all for spending money on scientific research but to justify large investments, it needs to yield something useful in practice. Otherwise it’s a form of philosophy, minus the societal impact.<p>XX century science has delivered plenty of practical applications. But is there any practical application to expect from another large Hadron collider? Wouldn’t that money be better used in bio science or something else?
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datadataalmost 3 years ago
This article brings to mind the plot point [SPOILER ALERT] in &quot;The Three-Body Problem&quot; where the antagonistic and technologically superior aliens halt the progress of our entire civilization merely with nanotechnology that impedes science at our particle accelerators, thus preventing breakthroughs in physics.
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neltnerbalmost 3 years ago
They could even pay scientists a more reasonable wage and make funding easier to get with all that money and maybe not have an unsustainable university system where even amazing researchers can&#x27;t get multi-year reliable funding (in the US, I know it is less bad elsewhere).<p>But sure, go build a $100B machine out of habit.
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ainiriandalmost 3 years ago
Well, the US spends more than 700B per year in military budget alone, I see this thing as much more important and necessary.<p>In any case it will be built by a conglomerate of countries and the budget is not huge when splitting the bill.<p>Heck I would even like to see a couple of these built per year instead of more planes and warships.<p>Edit: Typo.
TrapLord_Rhodoalmost 3 years ago
This is why we can&#x27;t get anything done. Everyone has a million other ideas on where this $100B should go and they would all be right.<p>That shouldn&#x27;t ever be the argument because you can argue about the exact peice of fecundity that the dollar value can have until you are blue in the face on X, Y, Z projects.<p>When it comes to government spending, my reactions seems to be the opposite of most. I actually think that these big audacious projects is the only use for government. Fund big things that individually and within the private market would never be a thing. Do Hubble, Do LHC++, do scientific exploration missions because that is what makes you proud to be part of what is going on around you. That sense of inspiration in the air of progress is all that is required for a functioning society.
rkwasnyalmost 3 years ago
The target never is to just &quot;build&quot; bigger LHC.<p>The important part is &quot;building&quot; which pumps billions into research programs for improving materials&#x2F;electronics etc.<p>Sure we can defund all expensive science and maintain the status quo, last time we did this dark ages happened.
blablabla123almost 3 years ago
&gt; The hypothetical machine could not truly test string theory<p>Interesting point, there was a time where it wasn&#x27;t even clear whether string theory should be considered part of Physics or rather Mathematics or even Metaphysics. That said, the LHC has continuously given additional insights into existing theories and also it&#x27;s not the only collider in the world although probably there&#x27;s no other where so many countries collaborate. Also an interesting read about the early history of CERN: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;physicstoday.scitation.org&#x2F;doi&#x2F;10.1063&#x2F;1.1955503" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;physicstoday.scitation.org&#x2F;doi&#x2F;10.1063&#x2F;1.1955503</a>
michaelcampbellalmost 3 years ago
I&#x27;ve often wondered if there was a point at which we know &quot;enough&quot;. That is to say, any knowledge beyond that point, while perhaps &quot;true&quot; and legitimate, can in no way influence anything anyone possibly does, has access to, or can base any decision on. In other words, is there a level of knowledge that can&#x27;t be used for literally anything?<p>Is this that?
macspoofingalmost 3 years ago
&gt;Please, don&#x27;t build another Large Hadron Collider ... A next-generation LHC++ could cost $100 billion.<p>I don&#x27;t think you need to worry about it
Johnny555almost 3 years ago
I always figured that the bigs supercolliders were just a big job creation program -- the money isn&#x27;t spent in a vacuum (no pun intended, well ok, a little), but the money is going toward paying people and vendors to do $100B of work, with a little raw materials thrown in. So even if you&#x27;re not getting $100B of science out of it, it&#x27;s not a total waste.
dontbenebbyalmost 3 years ago
But if we don&#x27;t, where will the next generation of birds drop their bagels?<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;science&#x2F;2009&#x2F;nov&#x2F;06&#x2F;cern-big-bang-goes-phut" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;science&#x2F;2009&#x2F;nov&#x2F;06&#x2F;cern-big-ban...</a><p>(Old physics meme :-) )
dmpk2kalmost 3 years ago
I have started calculating things in LHCs.<p>The LHC is a massive machine with advanced technologies, took a decade to design and build, involving 10k scientists and the international community, and cost $9B.<p><pre><code> - Squadron of F-35 aircraft: ~0.2 LHCs - JWT: 1.1 LHCs - ITER: &gt;2 LHCs - Elon Musk&#x27;s wealth: 24 LHCs - Microsoft&#x27;s market cap: 30 LHCs - US annual military budget: 90 LHCs - US national debt: 3389 LHCs </code></pre> Given the bizarrely huge numbers casually throw around nowadays, I think it&#x27;s useful to keep some perspective.
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spacemanmattalmost 3 years ago
As much as I generally agree with the goal of knowing all the things, that goal exists in service to living a good life. And I definitely have to question the economic sense of spending $100B at the LHC store, compared with many other stores that sell $100B worth of good life for earthlings.
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bullenalmost 3 years ago
The &quot;best&quot; thing to come out of CERN is HTTP.<p>I think breakthroughs are often perpendicular to the energy, so the best investment in understanding the universe is probably to explore it.<p>Unfortunately that also requires alot of energy.<p>Rate of change is going to slow down with the price of energy going up.
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freemintalmost 3 years ago
Yes and please build 10 of these instead:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.sciencedirect.com&#x2F;science&#x2F;article&#x2F;pii&#x2F;S0959652618307522" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.sciencedirect.com&#x2F;science&#x2F;article&#x2F;pii&#x2F;S095965261...</a>
jmartin2683almost 3 years ago
It’s a good thing guys like him didn’t have any say back in the 1920s and 30s.
LeoNatan25almost 3 years ago
“What it could discover is entirely speculative.”<p>This has been said, in one form or another, about almost any invention and experiment, shortly before actual discoveries were made. Scientific conservatism at its worst.
KHRZalmost 3 years ago
Well, there are some urgent issues where the money could be better spent, like solving the climate disaster, starvation, wars, automating most work. But after that, LHC++ is pretty much a top priority.
irthomasthomasalmost 3 years ago
I wouldn&#x27;t mind them building it if they just used their own money. Spinoff cern companies have earned a $trillion or more revenue and probably a hundred billions profit from things like medical imaging gear. They could well afford to fund themselves and a new collider without begging the public for money.<p>Cern really should be investigated and audited publicly, but it would take Delloites and PWC to follow that paper trail and audit hundreds of companies going back 25-30 years. I&#x27;ve always said it, cern is a scam, they take public money to fund product research, and then spin off separate companies to cream off the profits. Then they act broke and beg us for more money.<p>Edit: There is very little public information on this. The company accounts may be public, but like I said, there are hundreds of them going back 30 years, and no-one is motivated to do that kind of research. There is a recent study here[0] which looks at the economic benefit to companies that help build the research equipment. Obviously a lot of tech has to be invented just to build systems like this. But I haven&#x27;t seen a similar study of the cern spin-off companies, or KT (Knowledge Transfer) partners in cern nomenclature, and that is where the real meat is.<p>I don&#x27;t see why it would be so controversial for cern to retain some share in those KT companies and use that money to be self sufficient. That seems like a win for science.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cds.cern.ch&#x2F;record&#x2F;2632083&#x2F;files&#x2F;CERN-ACC-2018-0022.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cds.cern.ch&#x2F;record&#x2F;2632083&#x2F;files&#x2F;CERN-ACC-2018-0022....</a><p>Further reading:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;kt.cern&#x2F;success-stories&#x2F;fostering-culture-entrepreneurship-cern" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;kt.cern&#x2F;success-stories&#x2F;fostering-culture-entreprene...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;kt.cern&#x2F;success-stories&#x2F;managing-cern-intellectual-property" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;kt.cern&#x2F;success-stories&#x2F;managing-cern-intellectual-p...</a><p>One example company (out of hundreds):<p><pre><code> UK firm buys cancer-zapping spin-off from CERN collider &quot;The spin-off, known as Adam, was established in 2007 by CERN, the European Organisation for Nuclear Research, to build low-cost innovative accelerators for proton beam therapy (PBT) and conventional radiotherapy. Advanced Oncotherapy will pay for Adam in shares, giving CERN scientist Alberto Colussi, who founded the CERN business, a continuing stake in the technology.&quot; </code></pre> <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reuters.com&#x2F;article&#x2F;uk-cancer-cern-advancedoncotherapy-idUKBRE93N0BQ20130424" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reuters.com&#x2F;article&#x2F;uk-cancer-cern-advancedoncot...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.avoplc.com&#x2F;en-gb&#x2F;Investors&#x2F;Share-Price-Information" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.avoplc.com&#x2F;en-gb&#x2F;Investors&#x2F;Share-Price-Informati...</a>
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hosejaalmost 3 years ago
We need to start building large-scale space-based experiments. Not experiments to study space necessarily but because they&#x27;d be too big to fit on the Earth.
antonvsalmost 3 years ago
&gt; The only good argument for the LHC++ might be employment for smart people. And for string theorists.<p>We&#x27;re going to need that $100 billion for burn cream.
hexoalmost 3 years ago
I&#x27;d rather see my tax poured into new much larger collider than into politicians pockets, olypmic stadiums or agriculture subsidies...
practice9almost 3 years ago
Also, please no more Mars rovers. Sometimes it&#x27;s good to do something radically different, instead of scaling up the same stuff
Invictus0almost 3 years ago
There are more bad takes in this comment section than perhaps any other comment section I&#x27;ve seen in the last two years.
atemerevalmost 3 years ago
Ctrl-F, “Sabine”<p>Well, if this isn’t predictable!
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isaacfrondalmost 3 years ago
tl;dr.<p>Because Supersymmetry is stupid theory that can be fit to any set of facts, there is no point in building LHC++. Besides it is so expensive you could give a 100.000 physicist a million bucks and that would be more productive.
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viburnumalmost 3 years ago
End manned space flight while you’re at it.
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godelskialmost 3 years ago
I hate these economic arguments. They throw around big numbers to scare you away but really they aren&#x27;t big. Let&#x27;s look at the LHC, which cost $4.75bn to build and costs $5.5bn&#x2F;yr[0]. This may sound like a lot, but also consider that it took a decade to build ($0.5bn&#x2F;yr for the first 10 years). Then consider that it is a joint multinational effort. If you&#x27;re a member state (European) here&#x27;s what your country contributes yearly[1]. The highest is Germany which does 20% of the member state contributions, at a whopping total of $236 million&#x2F;yr (it is in CHF, but it is almost identical to the USD so I swapped). The US gives some grants in the half billion orders but I am having a harder time finding good logs.<p>The other thing I hate about this is that the numbers reported in the article are clearly inflationary. The use the precise phrasing &quot; It’s entirely possible that the price could swell to $100 billion.&quot; while highlighting the big number. Well let&#x27;s check another source. CNET says $23bn. So that would require a 5x over budget, which would be quite high. I know HN loves Hossenfelder, but she is overly pessimistic. At least in my group of physicists, we don&#x27;t know other physicists who like her much (not that I hate her, just more ambivalent). Pessimists are good, but they shouldn&#x27;t dominate conversations the same way optimists shouldn&#x27;t.<p>Either way, it is clear that this type of money is very small when we are discussing country budgets. It should not be inflated and should not be sold as if there is a single country buying it (which it is well cheap enough to be done. Hell, Bezos and Musk could each have one, or several. Hell, there&#x27;s at least 20 billionaires that wouldn&#x27;t have issues building their own and funding them for significant periods of time).<p>So the real question is if we should build it, not the cost. As a former physicist, I do think the argument for building one is weak. It is correct that we don&#x27;t have any great things to test. But there are reasons to do so. We need to consider it will take at least another decade to build, which theorists will hopefully come up with something in that time. If they don&#x27;t, we can still test precision levels which is highly helpful. But there are other intangible things that are hard to evaluate. Anytime we humans tackle difficult problems and push the boundaries of what we can do, we learn a lot. That&#x27;s where spinoffs come from and we&#x27;ve seen them in every major scientific endeavor (NASA, CERN, LIGO, and many more). Also, what happens when you put a bunch of smart people from many countries in a room together? There&#x27;s political advantages (and why I think it is a shame Bush killed the American accelerator). There&#x27;s also the fact that if we stop doing this, we&#x27;ll lose talent and skill. So yeah, the upsides aren&#x27;t crazy good like finding a new fundamental particle, but it also isn&#x27;t that expensive. That&#x27;s the real conversation that needs to be had.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.forbes.com&#x2F;sites&#x2F;alexknapp&#x2F;2012&#x2F;07&#x2F;05&#x2F;how-much-does-it-cost-to-find-a-higgs-boson" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.forbes.com&#x2F;sites&#x2F;alexknapp&#x2F;2012&#x2F;07&#x2F;05&#x2F;how-much-d...</a><p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.lhc-closer.es&#x2F;taking_a_closer_look_at_lhc&#x2F;0.cern_budget" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.lhc-closer.es&#x2F;taking_a_closer_look_at_lhc&#x2F;0.cern...</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cnet.com&#x2F;science&#x2F;cern-wants-to-build-a-new-23-billion-super-collider-thats-100-kilometres-long&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cnet.com&#x2F;science&#x2F;cern-wants-to-build-a-new-23-bi...</a>
gumbyalmost 3 years ago
This article summarized by xkcd: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;xkcd.com&#x2F;401&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;xkcd.com&#x2F;401&#x2F;</a><p>Side note: this is comic number 401. Comic number 404 is particularly good.
rubyist5evaalmost 3 years ago
Hey, I don’t need even more Mandela Effects, ok?
rootw0rmalmost 3 years ago
Couldn&#x27;t agree more.
yborisalmost 3 years ago
We are currently living in a very important time in humanity&#x27;s history that the philosopher Toby Ord calls <i>The Precipice</i>. We likely have a 1 out of 6 chance over the next century to end humanity (all human life is destroyed), so this century we absolutely <i>must</i> decrease the chances of <i>existential threats</i> to humanity or perish. This should be humanity&#x27;s #1 priority, yet at the moment we spend less on it than we do on ice cream.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;theprecipice.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;theprecipice.com&#x2F;</a><p>Please read this book, which is in my opinion the most important book written this century.