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Flu vaccination linked to 40% reduced risk of Alzheimer’s disease

231 pointsby cachecrabalmost 3 years ago

26 comments

i_love_limesalmost 3 years ago
Epidemiologist in training here... There are quite a few comments in this thread already jumping on the &#x27;correlation != causation&#x27; train. While that is true, I&#x27;d like to clarify a couple things:<p>1. The journal article didn&#x27;t suggest it was causal. But such a correlation with such a large population warrants publication and further research into causation.<p>2. literally the first thing that any epidemiologist would consider is potential confounders. There is a big list of covariates they included into their model here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;content.iospress.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;journal-of-alzheimers-disease&#x2F;jad220361#jad--1-jad220361-t002" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;content.iospress.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;journal-of-alzheimers-...</a><p>There are quite a few things that can be done to alleviate potential false correlations: DAGs, prior literature, removing confounders, and including covariates are all things at disposal.<p>3. Such a large sample size + previously reported findings + an inclusion of enough covariates still doesn&#x27;t == causation, BUT it&#x27;s important to publish and shout about so we can then look into the potential biological underpinnings that may cause this. Which by the way, those experiments may still use data science techniques.<p>4. If you are actually interested, there is a whole topic of this called &#x27;causal inference&#x27; with one famous criteria list called the &#x27;Bradford Hill Criteria&#x27;: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Bradford_Hill_criteria" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Bradford_Hill_criteria</a>. This list is often argued about.<p>5. If all of this information was new to you, please stop spouting &#x27;correlation != causation&#x27;. You probably don&#x27;t know as much as you think
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_Microftalmost 3 years ago
Summary: there were hints from smaller studies or studies on particular groups (e.g. veterans) that flu vaccinations can reduce the probability of elderly people to develop Alzheimer&#x27;s dementia. Here, almost 1 million pairs of recently flu vaccinated and not vaccinated people were matched and studied. A large protective effect was found. Other adulthood vaccinations show similar effects, hinting at a more general mechanism. There is a section about hypothesized mechanisms in the paper [0] which also points towards more general effects and not simply &quot;avoidance of infection&quot;.<p>Search [0] for &quot;Hypothesized mechanism&quot; or even &quot;BCG&quot; for a concrete example of a vaccine that most likely does not act via prevention of infection (it is a tuberculosis vaccine and most people never get tuberculosis. It still shows a protective effect).<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;content.iospress.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;journal-of-alzheimers-disease&#x2F;jad220361#S1" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;content.iospress.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;journal-of-alzheimers-...</a> (Open Access)
lukevalmost 3 years ago
Lots of discussion in this thread about the <i>accuracy</i> of the implied claim &quot;vaccination can prevent Alzheimers&quot;, but not a lot about the correct course of action.<p>Which seems to me to be, unambiguously, you should <i>absolutely</i> be religious about getting your flu shot every year. The vaccine is known to be safe and with few side effects (or at least, safer than the actual flu, which is the bar that needs to be cleared.)<p>And even if it hasn&#x27;t been conclusively <i>proven</i> that vaccines can avert Alzheimer&#x27;s, you&#x27;re at least putting yourself in the best possible cohort, right? Anyone familiar with Bayes&#x27; Theorem should be absolutely on board with this.
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dangomalmost 3 years ago
That&#x27;s an incredible effect size.<p>Mechanisms hypothesized to be at play:<p>&quot;These mechanisms—and those underlying the effects of adulthood vaccinations on all-cause dementia risk in general—can be grouped into at least three broad, non-exclusive categories: 1) influenza-specific mechanisms, including mitigation of damage secondary to influenza infection and&#x2F;or epitopic similarity between influenza proteins and AD pathology; 2) non–influenza-specific training of the innate immune system; and 3) non–influenza-specific changes in adaptive immunity via lymphocyte-mediated cross-reactivity.&quot;
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RagnarDalmost 3 years ago
The connection between Alzheimers and viral disease has been known and studied for some time, particularly but not exclusively for Herpes Simplex 1. The dead end pursuit of amyloid plaques as causative has delayed other research for decades. (In fact one hypothesis is that the plaques are a natural antiviral defense mechanism in the brain to try to slow down viral infection.) It&#x27;s time to take a much closer look at viral disease, possibly including influenza, as a fundamental cause.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;26967229&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;26967229&#x2F;</a>
eganistalmost 3 years ago
The correlation is probably loosely causative based on other research pointing to certain infections preceding a descent into Alzheimer&#x27;s or Dementia.<p>Related (not exhaustive. The infectious theory is rapidly gaining ground especially in light of anti-beta-amyloid drugs repeatedly failing in clinical trials):<p>* HSV&#x2F;Alzheimer&#x27;s: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;pmc&#x2F;articles&#x2F;PMC8234998&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;pmc&#x2F;articles&#x2F;PMC8234998&#x2F;</a><p>* HSV&#x2F;Alzheimer&#x27;s: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;content.iospress.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;journal-of-alzheimers-disease&#x2F;jad180266" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;content.iospress.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;journal-of-alzheimers-...</a><p>* HSV&#x2F;Alzheimer&#x27;s: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;29488144&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;29488144&#x2F;</a> (current independent phase 2 trial to reproduce outcomes: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;clinicaltrials.gov&#x2F;ct2&#x2F;show&#x2F;NCT03282916" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;clinicaltrials.gov&#x2F;ct2&#x2F;show&#x2F;NCT03282916</a>)<p>* Gingivitis&#x2F;Alzheimer&#x27;s: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;32280099&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;32280099&#x2F;</a><p>* Immunological role of Beta-Amyloid: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;alz-journals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com&#x2F;doi&#x2F;full&#x2F;10.1002&#x2F;trc2.12100" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;alz-journals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com&#x2F;doi&#x2F;full&#x2F;10.100...</a>
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wonderwonderalmost 3 years ago
Never gotten the flu vaccine before. Biggest fear in life is alzheimers. Guess I will get the flu vaccine annually going forward.
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standardUseralmost 3 years ago
If anyone out there thinks there are still people who don&#x27;t realize that &quot;correlation does not equal causation&quot;, don&#x27;t worry, we all know.
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Markoffalmost 3 years ago
At least one of the researchers (Paul E. Schulz) disqualifies this study, his disclosure: &quot;Consulting Fees: Occasional advisory panels for Lilly, Acadia, and Biogen. Lecture Fees: Occasional disease state education talks for Lilly, Acadia, and Biogen. Patents&#x2F;Royalties I serve as an expert witness for medical malpractice cases and other types of cases. None related to this paper. Not sure where to put this, but i am on about 12 NIH grants, none related to this study. And i have about 12 treatment trials funded by many pharmaceutical companies, including Lilly, Acadia, Biogen, Roche, UCB, etc. None are related to this paper, in my opinion.&quot;<p>And that&#x27;s just one, who is even admitting anything, the others can be funded through various shell companies which looks at first unrelated to pharma and claim they have nothing to disclose. You won&#x27;t bite hand that&#x27;s feeeding you.<p>I take any research pushing vaccination (especially something like flu vaccines which are pretty much placebo with 10-60% efficacy if you are lucky [1] [2], if not 0%) with big grain of salt nowadays after our experiences with these &quot;safe and effective&quot; COVID vaccines, which were proven to be not so safe and hardly effective at all.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.science.org&#x2F;content&#x2F;article&#x2F;why-flu-vaccines-so-often-fail" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.science.org&#x2F;content&#x2F;article&#x2F;why-flu-vaccines-so-...</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ecdc.europa.eu&#x2F;en&#x2F;seasonal-influenza&#x2F;prevention-and-control&#x2F;vaccine-effectiveness" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ecdc.europa.eu&#x2F;en&#x2F;seasonal-influenza&#x2F;prevention-...</a>
lancebeetalmost 3 years ago
It&#x27;s quite remarkable that an effect of this size on such a large group seems to have gone undetected for such a long time. As a layman, I would almost have expected geriatricians to have made the observation during their own practice.
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ncmncmalmost 3 years ago
Back in April 2021, another study using &gt;100,000 US Veterans Administration patients over 6 years found the same effect and effect size (42%) for <i>Tdap</i> vaccination.<p>They then checked a completely disjoint population, in a different health-care system, and got the same number.<p>I went out and got an over-the-counter Tdap vaccination at a local pharmacy, because how good does your reason for a vaccine booster need to be?
DarkmSparksalmost 3 years ago
While this would be lovely,<p>I think it just proves people with dementia are less likely to remember to get a flu vaccine.
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seydoralmost 3 years ago
A lot of armchair scientists in the comments. It&#x27;s quite striking effect but why is it published on IOS press? Looks like there might be more worth exploring in that dataset. What are the ways in which their result could be an artifact?
gojomoalmost 3 years ago
The words &quot;linked to&quot; or &quot;associated with&quot; are tells that no real causality has been established – no matter how casually, or sloppily, causality is implied by the paper or breezy PR summaries.<p>Maybe, early pre-diagnosis aspects of eventual Alzheimer&#x27;s (such as undiagnosed mild cognitive impairments) makes people less interested in, and diligent in pursuing, flu vaccinations. (In other words: the causality goes the other way.)<p>But also, people with active family&#x2F;social lives are both more likely to be reminded to get a flu vaccine, and less likely to develop Alzheimer&#x27;s.<p>And further: more conscientious people seek out vaccines. More conscientious people get Alzheimer&#x27;s at a much lower rate. For example, this study - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;jamanetwork.com&#x2F;journals&#x2F;jamapsychiatry&#x2F;fullarticle&#x2F;210072" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;jamanetwork.com&#x2F;journals&#x2F;jamapsychiatry&#x2F;fullarticle&#x2F;...</a> – suggests those in the 90th percentile of conscientiousness have 89% lower rates of Alzheimer&#x27;s diagnoses than those in the 10th percentile of conscientiousness.<p>While a mechanism from vax-induced immunity, and&#x2F;or fewer actual infections, to less dementia is plausible, these other well-known correlates&#x2F;confounders seem a likely explanation for these results, until&#x2F;unless controlled-for.
tick_tock_tickalmost 3 years ago
I think we&#x27;re slowly going to figure out that our own immune system does a bit more damage to the host then we though.
pengarualmost 3 years ago
&quot;Caring enough about stuff like your health to get flu vaccines linked to better outcomes&quot;
headsoupalmost 3 years ago
The study doesn&#x27;t seem to call out how many numbers in each cohort actually got the flu in the time period. Also, that the vaccines are created anew each year for the particular strains of flu likely to be an issue also requires investigation.
dragontameralmost 3 years ago
My sister who is a public health specialist, cautioned me about how difficult establishing cause-and-effect in these sorts of discussions can be in general. She hasn&#x27;t talked to me about this specific case, but lemme bring something up from the perspective that we Computer Scientists can understand.<p>Cause-and-effect chains form a DAG (Directed Acyclic Graph). For example, A causes B causes C, in theory (or in this case, A causes B prevents C. Cause vs prevent doesn&#x27;t really matter, its just a negative on the correlation diagrams)<p>In this case, we want to determine if &quot;Flu Vaccination causes&#x2F;prevents Alzheimer&#x27;s Disease&quot;.<p>Now lets consider a bunch of real life factors. Wealth, Age, Sex, Race, Educational Attainment, Insurance. Just the basic stuff anyone would think about. Lets focus on Educational Attainment + Insurance to keep things simple.<p>* Education -&gt; Flu + Education -&gt; Alzheimer&#x27;s? Or is it the case that &quot;stronger mind -&gt; Education -&gt; Flu Vaccines&quot; and &quot;stronger mind -&gt; Education -&gt; Alzheimer&#x27;s&quot; ?? Education is almost certainly a conflating situation (Education would probably cause higher flu vaccine uptake, and simultaneously would reduce Alzheimers), so maybe the Flu vaccine isn&#x27;t causing the effect... but is instead just a cross-correlation to education level.<p>* Insurance probably causes flu-vaccines (because flu vaccines are free for most insurance plans). Insurance probably doesn&#x27;t cause&#x2F;prevent Alzheimer&#x27;s though. So we have &quot;Insurance -&gt; Flu-vaccine -&gt; Alzheimer&quot;, which means we don&#x27;t have to worry about a cross-correlation in this case.<p>--------<p>Etc. etc.<p>Basically: to truly understand if we have a cause-and-effect situation here, we need to think of all possible conflating factors (such as education), while discounting factors that are &quot;along&quot; the DAG-chain towards the hypothetical result (ex: Insurance).<p>After that, there&#x27;s apparently a lot of math and analysis that we can do. If we take the records of the people who participated in this study, and get their educational levels + insurance information, we can then account for these conflating factors.<p>I probably messed up the language and everything else for that matter. But just a reminder that public health discussions are rather technical. There&#x27;s both a science and an art to the whole process, and just reading the &quot;results in the raw&quot; could lead to a misunderstanding.<p>----------<p>The best example of this is &quot;Ice Cream causes Drowning&quot;. (Real life: Hot summer temperatures cause ice-cream consumption. Hot summer temperatures cause people to swim.) We need to account for the Hot-temperature effect if we want to find the truth behind that correlation.<p>There&#x27;s also the chance that we&#x27;ve got it all backwards. Alzheimer&#x27;s causes people to stop taking the flu vaccine. (IE: Alzheimer&#x27;s might cause people to be more easily swayed by anti-vax propaganda, causing them to take less flu vaccines)<p>Figuring out all possibilities (as well as possibilities that aren&#x27;t even listed) is the job of a public health care specialist. They&#x27;ll get it wrong, but hopefully less wrong than you or I would. There&#x27;s apparently mathematical techniques to be used to tackle each of these questions I brought up.
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42e6e8c8-f7b8-4almost 3 years ago
Does this study account for &quot;healthy user bias&quot;?
srvmshralmost 3 years ago
At some point we (researchers &amp; scientists) should draw the line between correlation &amp; causation.<p>That there is 40% less incidence in flu vaccinated patients is established by observation, but is it due to flu vaccine by itself or factors which surrounds itself in people more prone to flu or who are medically more conscious? (edit: think of analysis of variance tests among identifiable medical &amp; socioeconomic variables). If the researchers establish a positive link, wouldn&#x27;t it be worthwhile to then suppose that amyloid plaques are somehow related to viral influenza replication - which by itself sounds a bit absurd (edit: Ok lot of good reference about infections around AD. I take this back, my bad)<p>The alternative hypothesis is worth thinking too: Are people more prone to Alzheimer&#x27;s also more prone to catching flu.
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caromontminyalmost 3 years ago
Great news ! It’s good to know that flu vaccination has two benefits
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jeffreportmill1almost 3 years ago
Possible alternate title: &quot;People with early onset Alzheimer&#x27;s frequently forget to get flu shots&quot;.
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ajaimkalmost 3 years ago
There is a joke here about forgetting to get your flu vaccine
bilsbiealmost 3 years ago
I posted this exact link two days ago. What gives?
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willciprianoalmost 3 years ago
People who get yearly flu vaccines probably go to the doctor more regularly than those who do not. I would expect that people who more regularly go to the doctor are also more concerned about their health. I&#x27;d expect people who are concerned with their health to behave in ways that limit disease.<p>Without a proposed method of action, I suspect this is just noise.
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bloodyplonker22almost 3 years ago
This article has very few details and is rather questionable, at best. Correlation does not imply causation. It could very well be that people who choose to get flu vaccines are more health-conscious and live a healthier lifestyle so they are less likely to get Alzheimers.
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