TE
TechEcho
Home24h TopNewestBestAskShowJobs
GitHubTwitter
Home

TechEcho

A tech news platform built with Next.js, providing global tech news and discussions.

GitHubTwitter

Home

HomeNewestBestAskShowJobs

Resources

HackerNews APIOriginal HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 TechEcho. All rights reserved.

Open letter to the Mac/iOS dev community regarding conduct

95 pointsby phwdover 13 years ago

25 comments

alex_cover 13 years ago
&#62;maybe the Mac community doesn’t want people like me to be comfortable? Perhaps they would rather keep this a boy’s club forever, and it’s simply irritating when people like me disrupt that.<p>I find this kind of generalization or assumption pretty much as distasteful as the author found the presentation.
评论 #3217565 未加载
评论 #3217355 未加载
jonhendryover 13 years ago
I wish posts like that would just name names. It would have made it easier to figure out what, exactly transpired. Having looked at the slides, and Daniel Jalkut's post linked elsewhere, it appears to be tame double-entendre humor that wouldn't be out of place on NPR.<p>I'm inclined to be on the complainant's side, but the complaint makes it seem much worse than it appears to have actually been.<p>I'm left thinking the woman involved went to a session that gave every indication of being very slightly off-color, and was shocked and offended that it was.
paxswillover 13 years ago
This isn't just a Mac/iOS community problem, as evidenced by a post like this popping up every week or two. It's a programming/hacker community problem.
评论 #3217300 未加载
siavoshover 13 years ago
I had the same experience when watching the Startup School video on the office hours when there was an innocent comment by PG regarding the mic and the female founders, and the whole audience laughed. I felt embarrassed at the immaturity of the audience and how much this was normal behavior for engineers. I think the whole cs/hacker field needs to reach for higher standards of professionalism.
评论 #3218644 未加载
评论 #3218004 未加载
snorkelover 13 years ago
I'm surprised the leading providers of mobile fart noise applications would be so immature.
sp332over 13 years ago
Not defending the inappropriate nature of the talk, but these doesn't look like "boy's club" kind of jokes. I mean "autorelease" and "NSInsertionPosition" don't seem like they're demeaning to women somehow. I think men and women are equally likely to be offended by this?
评论 #3217556 未加载
评论 #3217572 未加载
FuzzyDunlopover 13 years ago
While the description of the conference from the author's perspective certainly shows a stark lack of professionalism, it seems to be quite a jump to then attribute it to a lack of diversity in the field.<p>That lack of professionalism can't or shouldn't be defended, but neither can the hypocrisy in the post about it. For a thinly veiled post about sexism and male dominance in an industry, the author makes no effort to avoid making some sexist remarks of her own (as highlighted by alex_c[0]).<p>At risk of going off on a tangent, diversity <i>is</i> a good thing. Discrimination isn't. By extension, <i>positive</i> discrimination isn't a good thing. And the sooner everyone realises that the solution to the issue of poor diversity isn't even more discrimination, the better.<p>This in its simplest form means not using your own race, gender, religion, age etc. to make a point in favour of your own demographic, and also not allowing other people to do the same against you. Because real diversity is when none of that actually matters.<p>I have a slight feeling this may not be a popular point of view, but I find some of the popular thinking to be rather illogical. But the author makes a good point when taken solely on the merits of professionalism.<p>[0] <a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3217306" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3217306</a>
评论 #3217431 未加载
ryandvmover 13 years ago
The world would be a better place if people spent less time figuring out ways to be offended.
评论 #3217385 未加载
评论 #3217581 未加载
评论 #3217392 未加载
评论 #3217284 未加载
JulianMiller520over 13 years ago
I agree with you entirely but found your use of the terms "tits and ass" a bit jarring given your topic. I’m assuming it’s an attribution but was unable to glean that directly from the text. You may want to include quotation marks so we know who’s speaking, lest we find your post as offensive as the conference you are mentioning. "Auto-releasing" is offensive when double entendre is applied, "tits and ass" need no further implications.
jarjouraover 13 years ago
I am curious what conference and also what session this was?! Word of advice to anyone reading these comments, when presenting, ALWAYS take the moral high ground. People are easily offended period, and for all sorts of reasons you may not care about. The last thing the developer community needs is to offend people. We're all here to make the future a better place to live in, so lets act like we care too.
评论 #3217384 未加载
thoradamover 13 years ago
I'd understand this post if it were just a cry for more professionalism, which is welcomed, but how can sexual innuendo be construed to slight women in particular? Because the speaker mentioned breasts? Is this the '50s?
protomythover 13 years ago
Is there any specific information on what conference this was and who were the speakers mentioned? I find it hard to gauge what I should think based on no information.
dreamdu5tover 13 years ago
One speaker at a developer conference does not represent the community. If anything it reflects the organizer's choice of speakers.
fbuilesvover 13 years ago
Am I experiencing some bug here or is the author of this really expecting us to read something like this: <a href="http://cl.ly/0Q1b0i2t191F0R2L0B0t" rel="nofollow">http://cl.ly/0Q1b0i2t191F0R2L0B0t</a> ?
评论 #3218603 未加载
评论 #3217617 未加载
评论 #3217296 未加载
luigiover 13 years ago
As the number of developer conferences increases for a given technology, the probability of a sexually inappropriate talk approaches 1.
spaznodeover 13 years ago
We wouldn't be having this discussion on the Internet if it weren't for our love of "tits and ass".<p>Why are we acting so prudish about sexuality? I know my wife wouldn't care about a reference to celebrity t&#38;a. What kind of girls do take offense? I'll tell you what kind, ugly girls. Had to be said.
mawover 13 years ago
Some empathy for those of us who don't like reading grey text over a black background wouldn't go astray.
fleitzover 13 years ago
Who the fuck goes to a talk titled: "The Ten Dirty Words and How To Use Them." and is surprised that there are jokes of an offensive nature? It basically screams this talk is going to be unprofessional.<p>Exactly what could the presenter have done to more fully communicate the nature of the talk? Put up a green first slide that says "This talk is rated "O" for offensive by the Tech Conference Association of America."?
评论 #3218763 未加载
zyb09over 13 years ago
Well some people say if you are getting offended by "inappropriate" jokes that's basically your problem, not the problem of the majority of people there having fun. After all its just jokes, as in having humour. At a developer conference you shouldn't be so critical about it.
评论 #3217864 未加载
tux1968over 13 years ago
Open letter to open-letter writers. If you're not the kind of person who has empathy for people with different tastes in humour, there's no need to write anything further.
评论 #3217311 未加载
评论 #3217323 未加载
bgramerover 13 years ago
I had to copy/paste because it was too hard to read in dark reversed style of the blog's design. Here it is so you can read.<p>"A Letter to the Developer Community<p>Dear Mac/iOS Developer Community,<p>Empathy is the ability to put yourself in someone else’s shoes who may be different from yourself and attempt to understand/have compassion towards that person’s feelings, especially if their feelings are different from your own. If you do not consider yourself to be a particularly empathetic person, there’s no need to read any further.<p>I attended a Mac developer conference recently and overall had a great experience. I had the opportunity to meet and get to know many great developers while learning a few things too. Unfortunately, I left with a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. This feeling I attribute to a lack of conduct standards, and a failure by many of us to understand the changes in the industry that have been occurring, like it or not, over the years.<p>Here is what happened. I sat down to listen to a talk that I could tell by the title of the talk, was going to be inappropriate. I thought to myself, I’m at a respectful Mac conference, the organizer is walking around in a suit and conducting himself very professionally, I’m sure it will be ok. This was, in fact, a poor assumption. The speaker prefaced his talk by basically stating there was a little substance, but that most of the topics were being presented simply because of the sexual or otherwise inappropriate jokes that could be formed from the topics. For instance, jokes that can be made about “autoreleasing”. I’ll let you think about that for a second and you basically understand how this went. About ten minutes in, I was thoroughly disappointed in the immaturity and inappropriateness and walked out of the room. As others informed me later, it did not get any better. There were tidbits of information weaved in, but the overarching theme remained the same.<p>Sadly, this was not the only offensive point in the week. The highly respected keynote speaker managed to weave in a reference to a female celebrity’s tits and ass in his discussion, which I found awfully distasteful.<p>Now, I know that being one of the handful of women in attendance at the conference, I am in a serious minority in terms of the way I experience and react to things such as this. I also know that it’s quite possible that others would not be offended as they may have the same, in my opinion immature, sense of humor. Yet, in discussing with others, including members of my team, I found that I was not alone in finding these references uncomfortable.<p>Why is it that an inappropriate talk would even be permitted on a stage at any respectable conference? How does this in any way further the advancement of the software industry at large, and the Mac community especially? In my opinion, it sets us back quite a bit. During one of the much more informative and respectable talks of the week, the topic of diversity was brought up. The speaker pointed out the fact that the Mac community is full of mostly men from an educated and higher income background. The context was in discussion of how we tend to gravitate towards like minded people. And in fact, it’s impossible to argue that this is a truly diverse field by any means because women and minorities are grossly underrepresented as I’m sure you know.<p>However, what this experience and other similar encounters I have had in the last three years as a Mac developer have started to suggest is, maybe the Mac community doesn’t want people like me to be comfortable? Perhaps they would rather keep this a boy’s club forever, and it’s simply irritating when people like me disrupt that.<p>Wow, does that thought scare me. Coming from a different industry where diversity is praised and encouraged, could it be that software developers want the exact opposite? Clearly not all of us. But, perhaps some of the organizers of this particular conference gravitate toward that mindset.<p>The Mac development community has changed a lot over the years. There are new iOS consulting companies popping up all the time. Macs are in more homes than ever before in history. Mac developers are hiring business partners, even donning suits sometimes, and prancing into major corporations to work on exciting applications. It’s a new world, folks. And as a result, there will likely be growing pains.<p>All I ask is this…<p>First, if you are in a position where you can control the conduct and standards at a software event that is intended to be in any way professional, you are therefore obligated to do so. Or at least warn people who may be attending otherwise, so we may steer clear.<p>Second, before you start to defend this kind of inappropriate behavior in a professional setting, think about how you would feel if I were your daughter or your sister. I’m not against inappropriate humor by any means, I just think there’s a time and a place. This was not it.<p>Do we want the Mac community to be a place where anyone, regardless of gender, race, religion, etc. feels uncomfortable?<p>Diversity is great. It shows that our field is growing up. But diversity can only happen with acceptance, tolerance, and the ability to empathize with those who may feel uncomfortable, even if you yourself do not. I sincerely hope that at future Mac community events, I will not be similarly offended.<p>Thank you to the wonderful guys who provided support and feedback in preparation for this article. It’s nice to know we have some gentlemen out there in the Mac community!<p>Sincerely,<p>Brit<p>Update: After getting in touch with the conference organizers, I have a lot of hope regarding this issue. They were very concerned, apologetic, and acknowledged that this should not happen at a professional event. Thank you!
评论 #3220238 未加载
recoiledsnakeover 13 years ago
This trend needs to stop now. I guess this does not happen much in company-based events where such behavior would be grounds for firing or a warning from HR(or a ban from other company events for outsiders.) The open hacker community needs to step up a little and not let things be too casual to a fault. Diversity is very beneficial to the industry and if a speaker has to resort to crass humor to attract or entertain attendees, that doesn't reflect too well on their skills.
评论 #3217866 未加载
funkahover 13 years ago
Daniel Jalkut has posted his own take on the situation [1].<p>I appreciate it, because whenever these situations pop up, they quickly devolve into "tech is full of unprofessional assholes" versus "stop being such a baby". He also provides some background for why the session was done that way in the first place.<p>[1] <a href="http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/2266/how-to-talk-dirty" rel="nofollow">http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/2266/how-to-talk-dirty</a>
评论 #3217419 未加载
hackermomover 13 years ago
No need to freak out. Let people be people, and learn to just shrug your shoulders once in a while.
评论 #3217228 未加载
评论 #3217397 未加载
sneakover 13 years ago
A conference I can't hear dick jokes at is a conference I don't want to attend.<p>I'll just leave this here: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ISil7IHzxc" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ISil7IHzxc</a>
评论 #3217858 未加载