The “Hero’s Journey” Is Nonsense

14 pointsby shantnutiwariover 2 years ago

10 comments

arisbe__over 2 years ago

The monomyth is itself a myth not science.Is this how people really interpret people like J. Campbell (and J. Peterson)? I don't take him so literally. When a meta-story is described I imagine it is described not in a general abstract way (as in mathematical laws) but in a list of prototypes and archetypes that also contain aspects that are idiosyncratic and don't apply generally. I guess you could think of it as the synthesis of the specific and the general done in a wise way. That is lossy compression + mnemonic additions of non-general properties.That is the hero's journey is a meta-myth not an abstract general law like the Pythagorean theorem. The reason that mythological communication (and meta-mythological communication) as opposed to precise, mathematical/scientific communication is used is because it serves more purposes than just an attempt at perfect predictability. Like memorability and being widely understood by even children.I just thought of Campbell as saying "here are some interesting comparative parallels that contain interesting some tendencies", but the general implicit point is that of the lesson of developmental processes being nonmonotonic.That is development occurs through periodic degenerate movement. This is even true of the nonliving world. My chemistry knowledge is zero, but I wonder if this applies to even nucleosynthesis (the emergence of the periodic table). That is opposing periodic trends create a progression of electron configurations and so the energy levels have degeneracies. (but in this example I don't remember if the degeneracies have to be "moved through")Also in chemistry we have the idea of a reaction barrier. In the domain of consciousness people speaking of a metaphor to annealing from metallurgy. This pattern is ubiquitous and in mythology and psychology is about the value of progressively and iteratively confronting our fears. More generally it is just about the concept of indirection.

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orasisover 2 years ago

I didn't find the author's argument compelling. The "Hero's Journey" continues to be a useful model to understand both myth as well as an individual's growth into mature adulthood.

AlbertCoryover 2 years ago

> It also displays ethnocentric, sexist, heteronormative, and cisnormative biasesOkey-dokey. No need to read any further.

d1lover 2 years ago

No mention of the Golden Bough, no Jung, no Levi-Strauss.Author has no idea what they're on about. This amounts to a hot take on an entire field of study, viewed through a very narrow and specific ideological lens. No self awareness.

dekhnover 2 years ago

The author repeatedly undermines their own thesis by showing multiple examples of how the myth is in fact deeply embedded across many cultures. What a strange anti-argument.

lioetersover 2 years ago

If you'd like to go beyond the reductionist view of Joseph Campbell as a proponent of something that can be summarized by a phrase or a pop-sci concept, I recommend his four-book series, Masks of God.- Primitive Mythology- Oriental Mythology- Occidental Mythology- Creative MythologyBased on his study of history and anthropology, these book are rich with insights into human psychology and cultures around the world. Particularly the final volume culminates in a philosophy of art that's fit for the modern artist.

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jrm4over 2 years ago

This is generally correct; Campbell's not a horrible influence or anything like that, but after it all, it's hard to suggest that he's ever said anything much more than "Good stories involve a protagonist who goes through a tough struggle." That's the only real unifying theme.

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zwkrtover 2 years ago

I actually enjoyed reading Maps of Meaning by Jordan Peterson. I understand that in the last few years he’s really taken off the human mask and showed a really unflattering side of himself.One of the points I took away from the book is that the hero’s journey story form is inevitable because it maps to how we make sense of the world. We are constantly trying as animals to make sense of a chaotic environment. His version of the ur-story is that we have a territory of understanding, and the journey is how to go out of this safe place of the know , make some meaning out of it (make it useful, understand it, conquer it) and “bring it home”. At the end we are better for having incorporated more of the world into ourselves.They way humans uniquely do this is through story, but even at an autonomic level our bodies maintain homeostasis through the same process. Fundamentally what it means to navigate an environment—something all mobile creatures do— is to create these “maps of meaning” and then use the maps that we have internalized to move through the world. This skill is what makes is able to learn, to be flexible, and to be resilient.Stories aren’t very interesting to people if the characters in them don’t at least have a chance to learn something. Stories where everything always goes right and there are no problems at all mean that the characters in them never leave the territory of the known. But there are so many ways to inject meaning in a story that don’t map directly to the heroes journey. There can be stories where the hero never learns or conquers anything at all, but the viewer is better for having experienced it. That’s where I think the heroes journey theory breaks down.

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awbover 2 years ago

> Indeed, even Campbell himself admits in his book that not all stories address all seventeen stages of the “hero’s journey” explicitly, that sometimes certain stages may be expanded, condensed, or skipped entirely, and that not all stories will necessarily address the stages in the same order.> In other words, the “hero’s journey” is essentially just a list of tropes that sometimes appear in some stories from some cultures. This actually poses a huge problem for Campbell’s thesis that the “hero’s journey” is an innate part of the human psyche.For those that want a TLDR, here’s the hero’s journey: <a href="https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Heroesjourney.svg" rel="nofollow">https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Heroesjourney.svg</a>It looks as though these might be “part of the human psyche” because they’re commonly lived experiences.Call to Adventure = A challengeSupernatural Aid = LuckHelper / Mentor = Family / FriendsRevelation / Transformation = LearningAtonement = Reconciliation / ResolutionReturn = SuccessI’m sure there are other ways to interpret it too, but if you generalize the most engaging / exciting aspects of being human, that makes a story most people can relate to.

dragontamerover 2 years ago

If you replaced "The Hero's Journey" with the (Japanese-anime) word "Isekai", I get the same feeling here."Isekai" is the "Trapped in another world" trope that suddenly became popular for anime/manga in the last 10 years. But the basis of the story has been backwards-applied to Wizard of Oz, a Kid in King Author's Court, and even 90s shows like Digimon, Escaflowne, and .Hack//Sign.Except "Isekai" as a concept didn't exist until relatively recently, within the past decade or so. There's no way Mark Twain was thinking of that concept when he wrote "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" over a hundred years ago.---------Furthermore, a lot of the tropes associated with the Isekai genre can be applied to plenty of other stories (including the Hero's Journey). Harry Potter, for example, hits overpowered main character, travel to effectively another world hidden amongst people (Hogwarts), magical / fantasy tropes (classical monsters), etc. etc.----------There are however, certain tropes and storytelling devices that are popular amongst people. When you take an "average person" and stick them as the main character, with few defining features... it allows for the reader / watchers to "self-insert" themselves as the protagonist.See Harry Potter who comes from Muggle society, The Connecticut Yankee who represented a modern American from Mark Twain's era, Dorethy from Kansas, or the legion of Isekai protagonists from Kagome (Inuyasha), to Kirito (Sword Art Online). You give the main character a degree of wish fulfillment, including adventure, romance, and overall a positive and uplifting story. And a lot of people will like it. (The notion of "The Outsider" from Westerns and Japanese Samurai films also hits this trope)-----------We can see that "The Hero's Journey" in fact follows a lot of similar patterns with "Isekai" itself even. Adventure is thrust upon the protagonist in the form of "The Isekai" moment (the moment where the protagonist is teleported to another world somehow).-----------I think "The Hero's Journey" is largely the same. Its a backwards application being applied forwards. A concept created in 1944 that tries to unify stories from centuries or millennia ago, and tries to distill them into a singular "pattern" that works for today's audiences.No different from "Isekai" these days (though on a shorter timescale: a concept from the past 15 years that very well could be applied to stories from 100 years ago). Now excuse me, I have some trash anime to watch...EDIT: The trolls will joke that "Saving Private Ryan" is an Isekai. The WW2 front was a very different life, and the "Isekai" moment was getting off the boat and onto the shores of West Europe. They can't go back until they've accomplished their mission, so its an Isekai, trapped in another world.

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