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What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

442 pointsby eonweover 2 years ago

85 comments

Dig1tover 2 years ago
I work at a different FAANG and it seems like more and more the only news that we get from corporate is related to DEI. Also a lot of hiring details are now hidden from ICs. It used to be that you would be apart of the interview panel as an interviewer and then you would get together with your team afterwards and everyone on the team would vote yes&#x2F;no and that would pretty much be it. Now it’s made by a manager elsewhere and you have no idea why the decision was made.<p>I do worry that my kids won’t be diverse enough to be able to get into a decent school or get a good job like I was able to when they’re older.<p>We used to argue for equality, a level playing field, for all. Now we’ve had the rug swapped from underneath us.<p>It’s no longer about equality of opportunity, it’s about equality of outcome. To quote Kamala Harris’ recent remarks “to make sure everyone ends up in the same place”, i.e. “equity”
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nsxwolfover 2 years ago
I shut my mouth at work and go along with this stuff because I have no choice. I have a family to take care of. I&#x27;ve accepted this. But man, why do they always throw in the line about striving to make the workplace a &quot;diverse and inclusive culture where everyone can bring their full and authentic self&quot;? Everyone knows that&#x27;s a goddamn lie. I almost want to cry when I read that - it makes me so angry. I haven&#x27;t been anything like myself in the workplace for over a decade now and I&#x27;m sure I&#x27;ll never be again. I live a lie when I&#x27;m here and so do many, many others.
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comexover 2 years ago
&gt; You might imagine this policy doesn’t bias the hiring process, since managers are still free to choose who to hire after interviewing the diverse candidates. But because of the number of applicants, most are rejected based on their resumes. Imagine diversity candidates are 1% of the applicants but 15% of those interviewed. This gives those candidates opportunities to do well in interviews that their peers with similar resumes do not get.<p>So minority candidates are given an advantage in getting their foot in the door, but still have to prove themselves qualified for the job by doing well in interviews.<p>On average, those candidates would have started with a disadvantage in getting their foot in the door for several reasons – including outright discrimination, and the cumulative effect of past discrimination, but also softer factors such as being less likely to have helpful personal connections. This applies not just to the Microsoft job at issue, but to the previous jobs that would have populated their resumes (and for younger candidates, even schools).<p>Compensating for that sounds like a good policy to me.<p>Now, the post also suggests there is pressure to actually hire or promote less-qualified candidates, which might be a problem, but in that area the post is more vague and speculative.
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DebtDeflationover 2 years ago
This is how literally everything in corporate America works. You start with a good idea. It gets turned into a metric. Targets for this metric are assigned at various levels in the management hierarchy. Bonuses are made dependent upon meeting the target for the metric. Eventually everyone forgets the initial objective and just focuses on managing the metric. I work in consulting, client satisfaction is obviously very important, leadership made the determination that NPS is the best way to measure csat, we all have NPS targets, our bonuses are tied to them, so what does everyone do? They only send NPS surveys to specific clients they know will give a good score and then they spend time and effort to make sure the client follows up and does in fact give a good score. Everyone manages the metric, same as with the DE&amp;I stuff.
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CincinnatiManover 2 years ago
I don’t work at Microsoft, but another large corporation, and have been told by my manager that right now it is difficult for a white male to get promoted and that we may need to do some strange maneuvers to make it happen if I’m interested in a promo. Was kind of taken aback by the bluntness.
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therusskiyover 2 years ago
I find it puzzling why people are split by their skin color rather than their country of origin.<p>There are only marginal differences between a white and a black person born in US, while myself, being a white male born in Russia, cultural experiences and background have barely anything in common with a white person born in US except for the color of my skin.<p>The same applies for a black guy from US and a black guy from Nigeria or something.<p>Other people have already brought it up, but Asian is such a vague term as well. There are Asians from 1st world Asian countries (Japan, South Korea, Singapore) and from 3rd world countries (Vietnam and etc).<p>By diversity logic you really should have quotas for every flavor of color and birth, but you can imagine it&#x27;s going to lead to madness, so people just choose an easy way out and do this as a PR stunt.
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hintymadover 2 years ago
Maybe the question is why the leftists are so influential that for-profit companies are willing to comply with their ideology. Isn&#x27;t the best way to increase the representation of minorities is to increase the funnel? Better schools, better teachers, more rigorous curriculum for all instead of for the elite students, a whole new culture that values curiosity and geekiness in general, and eventually a larger number of people who are willing to toil for years to study STEM? But oh no, by merely asking such questions I&#x27;m a far right, a racist, and of course, a fascist (I can be wrong, of course, but I should be free to ask questions and propose alternative solutions).<p>My theory? CRT in workplace is popular because it&#x27;s effective at suppressing questions and at making it easy for organizations to avoid working on hard problems.
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milesskorpenover 2 years ago
&quot;I was pretty sure my corporate vice president would be more likely to promote people who had hired more of them and thus made his contribution to the annual D&amp;I report look good.&quot;<p>Statements like this carry a lot of weight in this essay: He&#x27;s &quot;pretty sure&quot; and &quot;assumes&quot; an awful lot. He also seems fairly ineffective at navigating bureaucracy. Taken to extremes, lots of corporate policies can seem a bit overbearing. This essay reads to me like he&#x27;s reading corporate D&amp;I policies to be maximally inflexible and frustrating in ways that are unlikely to be the case (at least from based on my personal experience working in large corporations + a short stint at MSFT many years ago).
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bennysonethingover 2 years ago
I&#x27;m hoping one day everyone wakes up and realises that the emperor has no clothes. Unfortunately DI is a virtue status game. It&#x27;s easier to play that than delivering real value in your job. It&#x27;s pretty much a religion with its own dogmas and lingo.<p>For more fresh madness see what the the UKs financial conduct authority is proposing:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.fca.org.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;press-releases&#x2F;fca-finalises-proposals-boost-disclosure-diversity-listed-company-boards-executive-committees" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.fca.org.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;press-releases&#x2F;fca-finalises-pro...</a>
logicalmonsterover 2 years ago
According to the Microsoft 2021 Annual Diversity And Inclusion report, 34.9% of employees identified as Asian in the US, far exceeding their overall representation in the US population.<p>Why are Asians doing so well? Why can&#x27;t we replicate this for other groups?<p>And doesn&#x27;t trying to hire more of other races imply that mathematically speaking, fewer Asians must be hired and promoted to achieve greater equality? Please help me understand if I&#x27;m missing something obvious.
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paxysover 2 years ago
It&#x27;s telling that this person posted a job listing, interviewed dozens of candidates, realized they couldn&#x27;t proceed because they hadn&#x27;t interviewed any minority candidate, tried for months and were still unsuccessful at finding a <i>single one</i>, and the take away wasn&#x27;t that they should fix their broken recruiting pipeline but that the corporate policy was what was wrong.
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BiteCode_devover 2 years ago
The problem is those filters are applied in the wrong order. If it was &quot;promote diversity hiring once you have a pool of talented candidates to pick from&quot;, it would work.<p>But right now, it&#x27;s the reverse: filter out non diverse candidates, and try to find a good one in the remaining.<p>Yet, it&#x27;s already hard to hire talent, even with no filter at all.<p>So now I have clients I assist for interviews, looking desperately for good devs, but when they find one, which is already a rare event, they often can&#x27;t hire him (yes, him, because the hiring pool is mostly males in IT in 2022) thanks of those blockers. Of course, they already have a ton of hiring constraints to match for, so this compounds.<p>This week, I&#x27;m going to interview the one candidate that could make it through the diversity policy. His resume is a train wreck, and I already know it&#x27;s going to be a waste of time.<p>So they are going to go through those shenanigans for the next year or so before finding their mythical creature, the same one their competitors are fighting for in this very competitive market. Of course, this means their projects are going to be delayed a lot.<p>It&#x27;s good for me, I get on the payroll for longer. And I&#x27;m a diversity bonus for them, being from another country, so they won&#x27;t get rid of me any time soon.<p>But I don&#x27;t envy them, they are set up for failure.
mikkergpover 2 years ago
Posts like this seem reactionary and equally anti-intellectual. Sure I know that a lot of the DE&amp;I stuff is frustrating for people. But it seems like if you really want to dig into this you need to take broader approach. Can you actually prove that people are in any way capable of measuring merit, especially for leadership decisions, which is pretty squishy to begin with? It seems to me like throwing some extra diversity into an already squishy process is the least of your worries.<p>They mention an increase of from 3% to 5% of membership of senior black leaders. Do I think those senior black leaders earned it? Probably. For certain levels of leadership probably 50% of leaders qualified for the position are ready, 20% are exceptional and 5% will be promoted. Better this than promoting the CEO&#x27;s nephew.
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maldevover 2 years ago
All this does is make it so certain groups appear to be REALLY dumb at certain companies. In my experience at my work places, only one in 10 women are actually qualified, and the rest are so utterly incompetent that they just end up taking up money. It&#x27;s not because they&#x27;re women, it&#x27;s because they just don&#x27;t belong there due to their skill level, but got a diversity hire.<p>I enjoy having women in my office, but because of DI&amp;E I don&#x27;t interview at places that have to many, since 9&#x2F;10 times it&#x27;s a big indicator the department or company is going under due to incompetence. Exact same thing applies to skin color. This shouldn&#x27;t be the case, but this is all policies like this do, and it&#x27;s going to whiplash REALLY hard once the cultural pendulum is over.
danielodievichover 2 years ago
Back in 2020, I interviewed at Github for a professional services customer facing position. One of the steps in the interview was D&amp;I, where I had 2 white males interview me, another white male, about what I do and will do for diversity, whatever that means. It was clear that they had a scripted checklist that they were going on and it was just a formality. They were visibly uncomfortable which this interview and so was I.
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pelasacoover 2 years ago
I experienced this in two different roles:<p>- One applying to one role at github&#x2F;microsoft: After ton of meetings, I would have to talk with their diversity manager, it was a 60 minutes meeting, which i just didn&#x27;t feel well to go through after some googling.<p>- As hiring manager (in another FAANG) company, I couldn&#x27;t hire the best candidates, until all other 20 more diverse were interviewed. Everyone, regardless of qualified or not, had to be interviewed, before we could hire someone less diverse (aka not &quot;white&quot;, not European, not &quot;Man&quot;). The position was for senior developer, and I had to go through a tedious set of interview with people straight of coding boot camp.. We ended up hiring one (guy), which wasn&#x27;t in our top 5. All top 5 were able to get a new job, since our process took almost 6 month, from starting the process up to onboarding him. It was frustrating and actually the main reason why I left the team, to become architect. The process was called &quot;agile&#x2F;fair hiring&quot;, how ironic..
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fallingknifeover 2 years ago
These practices are explicitly against federal law. When are judges going to start enforcing the law?<p>&gt; It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employer -<p><pre><code> (1) to fail or refuse to hire or to discharge any individual, or otherwise to discriminate against any individual with respect to his compensation, terms, conditions, or privileges of employment, because of such individual&#x27;s race, color, religion, sex, or national origin; or (2) to limit, segregate, or classify his employees or applicants for employment in any way which would deprive or tend to deprive any individual of employment opportunities or otherwise adversely affect his status as an employee, because of such individual&#x27;s race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. </code></pre> edit: not letting me reply down chain. source is Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964
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lr4444lrover 2 years ago
The current U.S. Supreme Court, though perhaps more ideologically bent than I&#x27;d like on many other issues, is certainly well poised to start slapping down some of these policies which brazenly dance on the wrong side (gray area at best) of Civil Rights law.
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Manuel_Dover 2 years ago
A previous, related, brew up on Yammer (microsoft&#x27;s internal forum): <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;qz.com&#x2F;1598345&#x2F;microsoft-staff-are-openly-questioning-the-value-of-diversity&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;qz.com&#x2F;1598345&#x2F;microsoft-staff-are-openly-questionin...</a><p>Despite the positive spin of QZ.com, it seems like there&#x27;s overt incentives for discrimination.
mikaelumanover 2 years ago
This categorization of human beings by race and sex is such a large step back in the opposite direction of how I would like society to be.<p>Like many others, I simply hope this &quot;goes away&quot;.
Decker87over 2 years ago
At this moment in time I think companies can gain a major hiring advantage by simply hiring the best regardless of race&#x2F;gender. So many large companies are shooting themselves in the foot distorting incentives and saying &quot;no&quot; to people who are the wrong color&#x2F;gender.
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giantg2over 2 years ago
I mean, a lot of the hiring issues are really symptoms of other issues earlier in the progress, and thus most (not all) of the fixes at that stage will not actually address the true issue and may even cause other problems.<p>To fill a position, you need candidates. To have candidates, you need students of that discipline. There are numerous issues that could skew the demographics of the students (some are problematic, but some may be natural&#x2F;acceptable!).<p>And of course this applies to domestic workers. Global workers and importing talent via visas have different benefits and issues.<p>All that said, in my experience most DEI company policies are more about not getting sued and avoiding bad press. They create policies, but many of them are ignored or just turned into a spineless checklist. As an example, the article didn&#x27;t seem to address why the Microsoft metrics are meaningful, or what the targets are and their justifications. There&#x27;s no systems thinking approach to explaining why or how the metrics&#x2F;policies are beneficial, rather it&#x27;s assumed.
sys32768over 2 years ago
I think a large part of society panicked after we killed racism, and they have been performing CPR on racism ever since.
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int0x2eover 2 years ago
I absolutely want to work in a diverse team. I want to be challenged by different perspectives and ideas. I want to have the best team members out there, regardless of their backgrounds.<p>I however, think many D&amp;I ideas fail to work when written into policies, and I think many times, higher-ups seem to write policy out of the best of intentions, yet fail to see how they can easily lead to abuse and poor results.<p>Two examples from a corporate job a friend shared with me -<p>1. A friend was interviewing senior software engineers for an open position, then got a candidate who was grossly irrelevant (I won&#x27;t bore you with the details, but she has ~1 year of experience at best, and this position was targeting a minimum of 5 years, 8+ years preferred). Turns out, that specific hiring manager had recently lost a (male) top candidate because they didn&#x27;t have a female candidate in that candidate&#x27;s pipeline - the manager learned his lesson and now always dumps 1-2 female candidates that have no chance of making it into any senior position, just to meet the &quot;diverse slate&quot; requirement of their D&amp;I policy.<p>2. Another example, this time not related to diversity - during the recent economic downturn, a company decided that on top of an aggressive hiring freeze, for any employee that is fired or quits, their position goes away with them, then gets re-assigned to where the higher-ups think the need is greatest. At first glance, that sounds like a good idea - kind of a CI&#x2F;CD for re-orgs with minimal &quot;slack&quot;. But of course, if you&#x27;re a smart enough manager, that means your biggest hope is to remain static through this period, which means you&#x27;ll never fire (or even challenge) anyone. You&#x27;ll even promote mediocre folks to keep them on, then fire them afterwards.<p>Naturally, the most talented will still get plenty of offers and move &#x2F; leave at some point, and then the slightly less talented folks get hit with all of their work and eventually move on as well, and over time the average talent level of that team will slide down considerably, and as we all know - hiring a top performer into a mediocre team is a challenge.<p>Nice policy in theory, but in practice - it will cause the company to lose tons of great talent, in a way that will take years to recover from.
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mnd999over 2 years ago
It kinda makes me sad. It’s great that companies want to improve D&amp;I but, assuming everything in that article is true, they’re making a hash of it.<p>They’ve forgotten Goodhart’s law, and as such they’ve create a metric everyone is trying to game which ends up being counterproductive and unfair to everyone. Let’s not forget it’s equally unfair to promote someone before they are ready and then stack rank them against more experienced colleagues as it is not to promote someone who is ready.
firstSpeakerover 2 years ago
We are a European enterprise and we have contracts with special recruitment firm for DEI quota. We had the opportunity to hire some amazing and technical folks through them. People with special hobbies and interests that would really make a different and add a new dimension to conversations.<p>The growing issue is the increasing number of employees coming in with skillset below 50% of current peers. Not all from EDI source, but for sure majority. Higher skilled engineers are leaving because they need to do more and more work to keep up the systems operational and that results in more and more of the skilled folks leaving.<p>Trying to explain this to VPs and directors and they would just say dont choose them! The interview system is set in a way that we get a bunch of resume without names and we need to stack them. HR contact as many of them as they feel good about and there goes the round of interviews. After the interviews we stack the results and hand it over to the management. And they decide whom to hire based on the stacked results and their own infallible judgment.<p>Sadly it also reflects poorly on people who are good and come in with DEI budget. They need to spend more times earning trust.
jimbobimboover 2 years ago
In 2022 you couldn&#x27;t pay me enough to be a people manager in an F500 company, precisely because of BS like this article describes.
nyxtomover 2 years ago
We seem to have gone full circle somehow. It is ironic that in its intent to ensure employers hire based on merit, academic or physically qualified abilities so that people could obtain those jobs without being discriminated against - we have arrived back at a point where companies consider their identity to make sure they meet &quot;quotas&quot; - thus implementing discriminatory policies.
andirkover 2 years ago
As of 2022, the only protected status one is allowed to discriminate against without new acronyms or hashtags or any uproar is age. We tend to hire people we want to befriend, which means people similar to us, which leads to a lot of this discrimination. See: &quot;culture fit&quot;.
amaiover 2 years ago
Outside of the US the race&#x2F;ethnicity of a person is not even allowed to be asked for or even stored. I actually believe that this leads to many problems in the first place and actually promotes racial segregation. The first time I had to think about what race I am was when I moved to the US.<p>Stop asking people what race they are, stop storing their race. And do the same for gender and religion. Just treat your people as humans. And problems like this will just disappear.<p>As a start you can anonymise applications of candidates: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;wol.iza.org&#x2F;articles&#x2F;anonymous-job-applications-and-hiring-discrimination&#x2F;long" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;wol.iza.org&#x2F;articles&#x2F;anonymous-job-applications-and-...</a>
Georgelementalover 2 years ago
Wokeness is first and foremost a legal phenomenon. You must check the box, because your manager must check the box, because the VP must check the box, because otherwise some regulator or lawyer might get angry and sue.<p>The civil rights legislation of the 1960s helped to destroy the evil of segregation, we should all be grateful for that. But the system that was once healthy and beneficial has now become a cancerous tumor that is metastasizing and infecting everything.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;richardhanania.substack.com&#x2F;i&#x2F;36007039&#x2F;wokeness-is-government-policy" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;richardhanania.substack.com&#x2F;i&#x2F;36007039&#x2F;wokeness-is-g...</a>
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allisdustover 2 years ago
This happening in tech is actually benign. In a lot of countries there are mandated quotas for minorities and socially backward communities in fields such as medicine, civil engineering etc, where the cost of mistakes is much higher. I do feel all this would be temporary in nature and eventually as these sections of society get more prosperity due to these policies, they will end up increasing their competency levels overall (but may not be in the same generation).
NautilusWaveover 2 years ago
I think it&#x27;s valiant for a company to strive to create diversity within the organization that&#x27;s reflective of their locale, but it seems many are trying to simply hire people with certain combinations of demographics and qualifications that are rare or non-existent. A more far-sighted solution is required, where private industry starts investing in education (in an equity-focused manner) to create the diverse, qualified workforce that they need.
sn0w_crashover 2 years ago
It’s really amazing how these companies are treating people from disadvantaged groups as “a number on a spreadsheet” and patting themselves on the back for it.<p>History will not look kindly on this moment in time.
psd1over 2 years ago
_sigh_<p>The common theme I see in all these happy HN contributors getting their panties in a twist over affirmative action is that transactions exist in America that discriminate against white people: for a given promotion, a black person is advanced over a white person who is better qualified.<p>It&#x27;s like some idiot plugging away at debugging a single query timing out, while the cluster is down.<p>Just take a step back. It&#x27;s a really important intellectual ability.<p>Are you a Grandmaster if you won all your matches starting with a material advantage?<p>- attend school with class sizes of 60: start minus four pawns - limited role models in middle-class jobs: start minus a bishop - generational effects from iniquitous zoning laws: minus a rook<p>Affirmative action is an attempt to give back the bishop. Other strategies are also needed.<p>The theme I&#x27;m bristling at is, approximately, complaining that you lost a piece because your opponent was given a bishop.
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runakoover 2 years ago
One of the key insights I think people are missing is that for most roles, <i>not</i> having a diverse slate of applicants in a country as diverse as America is a &quot;process smell.&quot; The smell is that you&#x27;re not casting a wide enough net to even know whether you&#x27;re getting the best applicants.<p>Some easy examples: if you&#x27;re hiring for most programming roles and you don&#x27;t have any qualified women applying, your pipeline sucks.<p>If your company is in California, and you don&#x27;t have any qualified Latinos applying for most of your jobs, your pipeline sucks.<p>Et cetera.<p>If you&#x27;re not casting a wide enough net to find qualified Latinos on the west coast(!), I guarantee you&#x27;re also missing qualified white men in whom you would be interested. Ultimately, this is why Microsoft cares; they have an interest in their overall process being the best it can be.
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jasec57322over 2 years ago
Microsoft makes their products difficult to repair: Microsoft calls this a &#x27;security measure&#x27;.<p>Microsoft has a bigoted hiring policy which cares more for your skin tone &amp; nipple size than your skillset: Microsoft calls this &#x27;diversity and inclusion&#x27;.
wafflestompover 2 years ago
I’ve seen active encouragement to violate the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Specifically Title VII section 703, (d) - Training Programs.<p>“It shall be an unlawful employment practice for any employer, labor organization, or joint labor-­management committee controlling apprenticeship or other training or retraining, including on­-the-­job training programs to discriminate against any individual because of his race, color, religion, sex, or national origin in admission to, or employment in, any program established to provide apprenticeship or other training.”<p>By specifically allowing Women to attend the Grace Hopper Conference on company time, funded by the company.<p>Men, are not allowed to attend (unless not male presenting), and thus being discriminated against based upon their sex.<p>At the Grace Hopper conference, there are plenty of sessions which could be argued are training.<p>If the attendees were going for recruiting purposes, I could see it not necessarily violating the law. However, Women are attending to go to the conference (training?) without any recruiting duties.<p>I expect there are similar conferences for POC, which equally violate the Civil rights act.
implementsover 2 years ago
It seems to me that a large nationally sited organisation should be naturally representatively diverse and inclusive, and if it isn’t that organisation should take steps to identify why and address whatever issues lie behind that.<p>But, … another part of me is uneasy with the idea that there is such as thing as a racialised or gendered (for example) engineer - engineers are individuals, and shouldn’t be under an implied expectation of being recognisably distinct from each other - so I don’t really know how to avoid the <i>‘entrenched discrimination via sensitivity to fixed identities’</i> problem.
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artecover 2 years ago
Companies that want more diverse workforces need to grow them through, education and training. Remove the barriers to learning in these POC communities and map out clear pathways to knowledge.
jleyankover 2 years ago
What about ageism? It’s prevalent, is that ok? How about women or even men trying to renter the workforce after having children?<p>Groups made of inexperienced young folks tend to make products for inexperienced young folks. People code what they know. While marketeers would support this, there’s still a lot of money out there that’s help by less desirable groups of people. And needs that aren’t relatable to these developers.
PuppyTailWagsover 2 years ago
The increase from 3.7% to 5.6% black executives as a sign of lowering standards, when black people are 14% of the population in the country... Can we first establish what percentage of managers people genuinely think got their job based on merit as a baseline? An equal explanation might be that because Microsoft forced people to actually interview black people at all, more qualified black candidates were hired.
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abigail95over 2 years ago
The civil rights act, as written makes this form of discrimination illegal.<p>However the supreme court undid this in United Steelworkers v Weber.<p>I do not understand how Americans find it acceptable that you can vote for people, they can pass <i>clear statutory language</i> that says you <i>cannot</i> discriminate and then SCOTUS can come along, and read the complete opposite meaning into the statute.
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koziserekover 2 years ago
Microsoft was always on my blacklist
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gcauover 2 years ago
In other places, like Africa or Asia, or just anywhere without a white majority, does the inverse exist? E.g. giving white people special treatment in hiring because they&#x27;re a minority there? If the idea is logically consistent, based on diversity and inclusion and not racism, it should exist? Maybe it does? Never heard of it.
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TedShillerover 2 years ago
Serious question: I&#x27;ve worked with incredibly diverse (compared to the national demographic) teams that consisted mostly of Indians and Asians from various countries throughout Asia. Under the Microsoft D&amp;I definition this would not count as diverse. Why do they define diversity in such an arbitrary way?
KETpXDDzRover 2 years ago
And that&#x27;s why I tell any employer that I&#x27;m LGBTQ+ and identify as black Hispanic. What a clown world we live in...<p>And while D&amp;I advocates are busy, the reality diverges. There are large teams at Amazon et al that only speak Hindi or Chinese. Imagine what group of persons are not hired because they aren&#x27;t a &quot;cultural fit&quot;. It&#x27;s good that many (mostly born in a western country) are aware of racism and try to prevent it. However, that usually doesn&#x27;t apply to people with a different cultural background. E.g., I saw many times that Indians treated other Indians differently based on their caste. That happened in silicon valley companies in the US.
yieldcrvover 2 years ago
from what I can tell, <i>nobody</i> knows how to interpret the civil rights acts and nobody wants to have a discussion on how to compliantly do so.<p>all you have to do is start recruiting in <i>places</i> that were overlooked. just stop obsessing over Stanford pedigrees and recruit at the same Tier 3 universities that the intelligence community recruits from.<p>fund your own coding academies and executive workshops and create your own pipeline, physically located in neighborhoods that have people you want representation from.<p>everyone is going to keep messing this up and discriminating on the hiring process, without a framework about how to do it.
atlgatorover 2 years ago
This is all part of the public-private alliance between big corporations and left-wing politicians. They can&#x27;t implement Marxism outright because of State authority to override, so they are using companies to do it and killing small business competition in return. This is also why some corporations get larger and larger without any real antitrust enforcement.<p>This is happening at every F50 company. If you are thinking &quot;not my company&quot; right now, you&#x27;re just not high enough in leadership.
cat_plus_plusover 2 years ago
So it sounds like I will not rise to the top in big tech regardless of my hard work and talent, what are the best alternative employers that don&#x27;t do this?
silexiaover 2 years ago
DEI is the new racism and sexism. It&#x27;s just as bad as the old racism and sexism.<p>The fundamental issue is we have lost our freedoms. We live in a socialist society where we have to follow party lines. It all starts with laws that sound fantastic, but took away freedoms of speech.
yashapover 2 years ago
Affirmative Action is always going to be a very controversial topic. Personally I&#x27;m for it, but I understand why people dislike it.<p>I do strongly believe that, even with Affirmative Action policies, it&#x27;s still a lot harder to succeed as a non white male than it is as a white male, today. For example, no matter how you slice it, white Americans are ~3-4x more likely to become millionaires than black or hispanic Americas (source: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bloomberg.com&#x2F;features&#x2F;2016-millionaire-odds&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bloomberg.com&#x2F;features&#x2F;2016-millionaire-odds&#x2F;</a>). I think there&#x27;s a TONNE of reasons for race and gender based inequality, but IMO most of them have to do with &quot;momentum&quot;. If you grow up in a wealthy family, you&#x27;ve got easy access to great education, mentors, role models, capital, etc. If you grow up in a poor family you have way less of all of this. It wasn&#x27;t long ago that racism and sexism were much, much worse than they are today (and there&#x27;s still lots of conscious and unconscious bias today), so white families are a lot wealthier today than minority families, and that propagates to the next generation, and the one after that, etc. Slavery wasn&#x27;t abolished in America until 1865, the Brown vs. Board of Education decision (ending racial segregation of schools) came in 1954, Rosa Parks was 1955, Jim Crow laws weren&#x27;t really sweepingly overturned until 1965. If you&#x27;re a black American in their 40s today, your parents were probably born in the Jim Crow era, where the impediments to their financial success were immense.<p>If, as a society, we don&#x27;t try to actively help non white males reach an equal footing in terms of opportunity, it&#x27;ll be really, really hard to close these &quot;momentum&quot; gaps. I view Affirmative Action as a temporary approach to narrowing these gaps. It&#x27;s realizing that it&#x27;s too hard to succeed financially as a minority in America, and temporarily giving minorities a leg up on hiring and promotions to help even the wealth&#x2F;opportunity gap. Once the gap more or less goes away, you remove the Affirmative Action policies, but that&#x27;ll take time. If you hire based purely on qualifications, education, experience, etc., the gap isn&#x27;t going away for an extremely long time, because white families are a lot wealthier than minority families today, so a disproportionate number of kids from those families are going to have those advantages, and the gap persists.
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jleyankover 2 years ago
If white people want to learn about racism, fail to know French and try to work in Quebec. Black as soon as you open your mouth…
svillarover 2 years ago
Long time HN lurker here - some of the comments are being blown out of proportion.<p>Statistically speaking, these are called “minorities” for a reason, there simply aren’t enough of them in STEM related fields.<p>Diversifying your team&#x2F;group with one or two female or foreign born individuals won’t dramatically impact the overall productivity of your team - assuming this person is not already a very hard working and&#x2F;or bright individual, which many&#x2F;most are.<p>The fact that this person made it to the interview phase and passed the initial filters (which are typically gender&#x2F;race blind) indicates that they are potentially qualified for the role.<p>Keep in mind, interviewing is hard - for both parties involved, for different reasons but especially hard for candidates. There is a significant “luck” component involved.<p>Many interviewers are inexperienced and focus solely on finding ways to disqualify candidates as opposed to figuring out how a given person could “fit in” and contribute&#x2F;help level up the team.<p>I ask that you have an open mind and show some empathy. We still have a lot of work to do to create a more diverse and inclusive society.
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aabreuover 2 years ago
Didn&#x27;t many people predict exactly this? Go back to Alex Jones videos from 2010 and apologize.
slowhadokenover 2 years ago
I think if diversity leads to lower profit but better work experience tech companies will get rid of it.
soueulsover 2 years ago
I left the western world several years ago, partly because of this. I could not live in an idiocracy where some people hire based on skin colors or genitals.<p>Thankfully, I have faith in capitalism.<p>I never thought I would say such an obvious thing, but we are entering an era where « hiring the most competent » is going to give an unfair advantage to smaller companies.<p>I am already seeing this with cinema. Sure the US is still producing a lot of interesting stuff, you still have very talented filmmakers. But you are literally losing market share to Korea (which should have never happened) just because you made your mission to transform every possible well known character into black characters for the sake of it.<p>I haven’t seen any interesting Netflix original show about Zulu, or how people competed for power in Egypt.<p>But I sure have seen plenty of black washing (even on non white historical figures)
nottorpover 2 years ago
Seriously, what&#x27;s with that newsletter popup that has no close button?<p>I&#x27;m starting to see it everywhere on blog posts linked from HN.<p>Are &quot;influencers&quot; that desperate?
outside1234over 2 years ago
This is a real thing.<p>It is hard for anyone that is not &quot;diverse&quot; to get promoted at the highest levels of Microsoft. Almost all CVP promotions are &quot;diverse&quot; now in a way that is pretty overt.<p>I am a huge proponent of D&amp;I, but it is hard not to feel discriminated against and feel like there isn&#x27;t much of a career trajectory for me.
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superjanover 2 years ago
I think it is great that microsoft has a diversity policy and is making clear to everyone there that it matters. It is quite ham-handed, but that is kind of the default in corporations of that size. I can imagine the frustration having to deal with such policies, but he apparently did not reach out to get diverse candidates.
pyuser583over 2 years ago
Diversity and Inclusion are very different things.<p>You can do top down diversity. If you can hire or fire, you can increase diversity. Not easy, but doable.<p>Inclusion is a very different thing. After someone is hired, they have to be see their employer as an accepting place.<p>This is accomplished mostly by peer to peer interactions.<p>You can’t top-down force inclusion.
jansanover 2 years ago
If you want racial equity, you have to start at school or even earlier. Get rid of private schools, improve the public school system. Then you can actually get good people from all kinds of backgrounds that are not looked upon as &quot;diversity hires&quot;.
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balls187over 2 years ago
&quot;Imagine you work under a black executive at Microsoft. Does a graph like this one make you more or less likely to think they got to where they are because of their accomplishments? &quot;<p>This is the same &quot;affirmative action hire&quot; argument conservatives have been making since affirmative action was implemented.
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dogman144over 2 years ago
The thing is, there are not many companies or jobs where you can save $1mil+ in under 4 years, especially if you’re Dual Income or pre-kids. Especially at a 9-5 where I am in pajamas more often than not.<p>Hunker down, leverage to the opp to do boring tech at an interesting large scale and and earn a mountain.<p>Find your non-enterprise, pure meritocracy Ayn Rand bonanza engineering experience at a pre-Series C.<p>I can’t understand why engs expect FAANGs to operate like anything but an enterprise now, and then complain about that behavior!<p>We can save $1mil in under 4 years while wearing pajamas. The blind spots of the extreme relative privilege in this job and anchoring on articles like this as serious grievances blows my mind.
Supermanchoover 2 years ago
Bypass paywall: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;12ft.io&#x2F;proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cspicenter.com%2Fp%2Fwhat-diversity-and-inclusion-means" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;12ft.io&#x2F;proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cspicenter.com%2Fp...</a>
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grammersover 2 years ago
Maybe Microsoft managers think it&#x27;s enough if everybody can decide for themselves about their pronouns.
psyfiover 2 years ago
DEI policies are pure racism but in the other direction.
rvzover 2 years ago
TLDR: It still means nothing.
crackercrewsover 2 years ago
I read the comments then read the article, then came back to find it dead. But why? This post contains new information that is relevant to the tech industry. Its claims are not outlandish. And it brings receipts (screenshots). If this is what a major tech company is doing, isn&#x27;t it worthy of discussion here?<p>I hope the comments can be civil, and I&#x27;ve seen more contentious topics surface high-quality comments on HN.
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AngeloRover 2 years ago
What always bothered me about DE&amp;I initiatives is that they are trying to wring diversity out of their existing hiring pool.<p>If your indeed job posts didn&#x27;t bring diverse candidates then, why do you think it would now? Because you added a &quot;Please apply if you&#x27;re DiVeRsE&quot; line to it? Don&#x27;t be ridiculous.<p>If you want diversity of candidates you can&#x27;t keep going back to the same talent pools. You have to diversify where you&#x27;re drawing talent.<p>If your college program is primarily getting white&#x2F;asian males, you can&#x27;t suddenly expect it to start throwing in women &amp; poc as well. You can&#x27;t suddenly expect it to start giving you LGBTQ+ candidates.<p>If you want diverse candidates, you have to look at diverse hiring pools. Look at the bootcamps that focus on diverse groups you&#x27;re targeting. Look at schools that focus on diverse groups you&#x27;re targeting.<p>If you&#x27;re really interested in diverse candidates, you can&#x27;t keep expecting them to just show up if you add a &quot;We want diversity!&quot; to your job description - you have to change where you look for them.
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irrationalover 2 years ago
I&#x27;ve been at a particular company for 20 years. For most of those years our main focus was our core mission, but over the past few years D&amp;I has risen to be our main focus. I&#x27;ve seen people hired who clearly are not qualified and often are not trainable to become qualified. An example is a woman who refused to take any hard assignments and usually made no progress on the easy stuff she was assigned. She was certainly able to do the work, but just didn&#x27;t do it. Then she started taking standup zoom calls from the ski slopes in winter and hiking trails in the summer. Well, you would think this would be enough to at least get her onto some sort of remediation program, but nope, HR said we could do nothing to her. So she basically earns a six figure salary and does absolutely nothing, other than fulfill a D&amp;I quota.
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PKopover 2 years ago
Why would anyone support a system that explicitly dis-empowers them in preference to other identity groups who themselves are perfectly fine to pursue their own self interest?<p>After years of this, are the &quot;privileged&quot; getting the picture yet? You are a target for elimination in popular society. Either you take your own side, or no one will. There is a clear zero-sum aspect to this.<p>The cultural brainwashing that there is virtue in supporting this against your own interests is just Nietzschean slave-morality propaganda. You don&#x27;t have to apologize for or pathologize being capable, successful and doing what is best for yourself, dare I say even for your <i>own</i> identity group. You can simply reject this nonsense; the emperor truly has no clothes here.<p>Related: my most recent submission [0] titled &quot;Wikimedia is funding political activism&quot; received over 20 points in 30 minutes, but of course was quickly flagged without discussion. Quite a bit of censorship around these parts regarding these particular topics with huge impact on all of us within the tech industry.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;echetus&#x2F;status&#x2F;1579776106034757633" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;echetus&#x2F;status&#x2F;1579776106034757633</a>
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yellsatcloudsover 2 years ago
this person seem to not understand how microsoft&#x27;s business stays on track.<p>they seem to really think that individual contributions truly affect Microsoft&#x27;s fullfilment of their self-appointed mission; but I highly doubt this. Microsoft is really huge. No single individual can really detract, nor add too much, to the company&#x27;s overall mission.
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tdeckover 2 years ago
Oh, it&#x27;s that right-wing culture war grievance blog that coincidentally chose the same initials as the Center for Science in the Public Interest and calls itself a think tank.
diebeforei485over 2 years ago
How does Tesla manage to be diverse without having an internal bureaucracy micromanaging everyone at D&amp;I?
therobot24over 2 years ago
a lot of comments here recognize what a discussion of &#x27;diversity and inclusion&#x27; on this forum (HN) is likely to contain -- i.e., HN should recognize it&#x27;s own stereotypes of tech culture being toxic which only reinforces _any_ company from trying to curb that toxicity (whether it&#x27;s the perfect approach to doing so or not)
freedom-friesover 2 years ago
At just 5.6% they are not doing enough! Capitalism has made &quot;unwanted&quot; people the outliers and capitalism can fix it!<p>One way to improve hiring could by legislating that for-profit companies should do away with drug tests and background verification. Systemic &amp; instituitional racism means a lot of people of the wrong race&#x2F;color are simply ineligible to be hired just because they have drug charges or they have a record because once took a loaf of bread from Kroger.<p>Billion-dollar corporations can afford to hire them, mix them with existing teams, have them learn on the job from the best people in the industry and turn them to be a productive person of the society. In the short term, yes it can cause pain and loss of productivity, but in the long-term, as the society we all can come ahead!
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layer8over 2 years ago
&gt; would you rather work at Google on Gmail or at Microsoft on Outlook?<p>Actually, Outlook is much more usable than GMail, but apparently that doesn’t translate to developer prestige.
bedobiover 2 years ago
I hate articles like these and their appeals to &quot;meritocracy&quot;.<p>Before my current team, my whole career, every single team I worked in was pretty much exclusively young, white, nerdy men. Maybe each person on those teams was objectively the &quot;best&quot; candidate for their respective hiring round! (though I doubt it) But they make horrible teams. If your team looks like that, your team is horrible too, no matter how much you tell yourself it&#x27;s not.<p>My current team is a diverse group of well-rounded people. Some women, some men, some younger, some older, from many ethnic and cultural backgrounds.<p>Guess which is the higher performing? Guess which has a safe atmosphere with zero dick measuring? Guess which is the most pleasant to be a part of? Guess which has zero tolerance for any toxic behavior? etc etc<p>Sure, there&#x27;s lots of room for improvement in how tech businesses actually implement diversity vs just paying lip service to it and slicing numbers. But don&#x27;t pretend like diversity isn&#x27;t sorely needed in the industry.
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aaroninsfover 2 years ago
Most of the top comments are literally recapitulating all the received unexamined &quot;common sense meritocracy&quot; talking points which are systematically examined and dismantled as the first order of business in such training.<p>Depressing, but not suprising.
spearson23over 2 years ago
This policy sounds like exactly what it should be. This is to make up for things like this (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bloomberg.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;articles&#x2F;2021-07-29&#x2F;job-applicants-with-black-names-still-less-likely-to-get-the-interview" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bloomberg.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;articles&#x2F;2021-07-29&#x2F;job-appli...</a>), but having a black sounding name makes you less likely to get an interview.<p>If society doesn&#x27;t put some effort into overcoming its biases, those biases will always exist.
outworlderover 2 years ago
&gt; Imagine you work under a black executive at Microsoft. Does a graph like this one make you more or less likely to think they got to where they are because of their accomplishments?<p>And then they show a graph where only 5.6% of the execs are black (up from 3.7%). It&#x27;s a pitiful number.<p>Yes, it&#x27;s still more likely they got there because of their accomplishments, bigot.<p>&gt; From 2021 to 2022, I worked as a manager in Microsoft’s AI Platform division.<p>Wow. A whole year. In large companies that&#x27;s barely enough time to understand all the unspoken lines of communication, let alone pass judgment on a company&#x27;s culture.
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noasaserviceover 2 years ago
So, let me guess.... It means in practice hiring BiPOC and women in &quot;diversity positions&quot;, all the while keeping them away from engineering and engineering management (you know, the positions that pay $$$$$$).<p>I&#x27;ve seen BiPOC and women candidates turned down time and again because they &quot;fit&quot; better in the bullshit diversity spots. And then there&#x27;s a rant about &quot;fit&quot; also known as &quot;we want to discriminate on illegal or unethical things but we cant actually say that&quot;.
kasajianover 2 years ago
It&#x27;s obvious the writer of the article felt what he was asked to do was a mere distraction, made obvious by his statement that he would rather go back to &quot;focusing on producing great software&quot;<p>This would have sense if it wasn&#x27;t for the fact that the company that he works for, the folks that are paying him to be there, are actually asking him to do the thing that he is paying lip-service to.<p>I would hate to have an employee who doesn&#x27;t do what they&#x27;re directed to do because they thought they knew better. Unless it&#x27;s something illegal, if you&#x27;re going to collect a paycheck, you either do what you&#x27;re asked to do or you leave. You don&#x27;t continue to take their money but do something other than what they&#x27;re asking for. Ridiculous.
phillipcarterover 2 years ago
Ugh, another one of these.<p>&gt; There weren’t any quotas around how many of these “diverse” candidates I had to actually hire, but I was pretty sure my corporate vice president would be more likely to promote people who had hired more of them and thus made his contribution to the annual D&amp;I report look good.<p>Correct, there aren&#x27;t quotas, but of course that doesn&#x27;t stop the author from speculating that there might be, and basing the rest of the article on that.<p>&gt; Again, there was no quota, but it seemed clear that promoting this person would have made HR and my corporate vice president happy.<p>Missing here is how BIPOC and women have been systemically under-promoted relative to their work output, and yes, although there is no quota, someone is checking in to make sure a <i>manager</i> (i.e., someone who has power over their reports&#x27; lives) is aware of systemic biases when approaching their decision-making. What is terrible about this exactly?