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“Women are wonderful” effect

175 pointsby isomorphover 2 years ago

25 comments

lucideerover 2 years ago
If I read this correctly, it seems an oddly positive spin on what should actually be referred to as the &quot;Men are awful&quot; effect.<p>&gt; <i>The authors supposed that the positive general evaluation of women might derive from the association between women and nurturing characteristics. This bias has been cited as an example of benevolent sexism.</i><p>Seems an unusually baseless conclusion when in the actual research:<p>&gt; <i>a task was done to discover whether people associate pleasant words (good, happy, and sunshine) with women, and unpleasant words (bad, trouble, and pain) with men</i><p>(conclusions from the study seem to focus on the former positive indicators and ignore the latter negative indicators?)<p>&gt; <i>men lack a mechanism that bolsters automatic preference for their own gender</i><p>I wonder why that might be?<p>&gt; <i>Other experiments in this study found people [...] associated the male gender with violence or aggression</i><p>&gt; <i>Rudman and Goodwin&#x27;s suggested that [...] male intimidation influences gender attitudes.</i><p>I&#x27;ve clipped the positive attitude findings in the above quotes which seems like cherry picking but I&#x27;m not trying to negate the findings of positive attitudes toward women. Just pointing out that the clear findings around negative attitudes seem omitted from the conclusion.<p>The following quote is the clearest example:<p>&gt; <i>mediation comes not from differences in attitudes towards women, but in attitudes towards men. In more egalitarian societies, people have more positive attitudes towards men than in less egalitarian societies</i>
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samhukover 2 years ago
A study finds that women are viewed more positively than men, then researchers coin phrases like &quot;women-are-wonderful&quot; (equally &quot;men are bad&quot;) and &quot;benevolent sexism&quot; (no, it&#x27;s just sexism).<p>Hmm, almost like it&#x27;s ironic. or something. So blatantly obviously ironic, in fact, that I begin to wonder whether they were aware of their own joke. Any by joke, I don&#x27;t mean social science in general or anything.
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SaintGhurkaover 2 years ago
It seems like this explains, or perhaps is explained by &quot;male expendability&quot;.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Male_expendability" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Male_expendability</a>
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jacknewsover 2 years ago
&#x27;benevolent sexism&#x27;??? It sounds like newspeak to me.<p>Surely this should just be called &#x27;female privilege&#x27;.
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markdog12over 2 years ago
Related, recent study: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bps.org.uk&#x2F;research-digest&#x2F;people-are-more-sceptical-sex-difference-research-when-findings-favour-men" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bps.org.uk&#x2F;research-digest&#x2F;people-are-more-scept...</a><p>&gt; participants had a much less positive response to articles favouring men over women than those that favoured women over men – and, again, this effect was stronger in women, as well as in left-leaning participants<p>&gt; They also felt more strongly that male-favouring findings should be kept away from girls and not mentioned by teachers and the media.
moe091over 2 years ago
I think Carl Jung did a great job of describing the origin of this effect with the concept of the underdeveloped anima - which is an especially common condition among modern men(technically it&#x27;s common among all men before they reach emotional maturity, but this specific type of maturation is often stunted nowadays).<p>At different levels of underdevelopment, it can cause women to be perceived negatively; evil, duplicitous, manipulative, etc. At other levels it causes a person to put women on a pedestal, thinking they can do no wrong, viewing them as these perfect, almost numinous beings who are a source of comfort and love.<p>The common symptom is not viewing women as PEOPLE, as instead of seeing women as they are, all women are viewed through the projection of the persons own &quot;anima&quot;(think of it as an internal construct that represents a persons mother, or more generally, as the archetypal &quot;woman&quot;), and whatever unrecognized complexes or ideas are tied up with that image are projected into the real world. These complexes are developed naturally during early stages of life when a persons mother is perceived as some all-powerful and all-loving source of life, and as a person matures they are supposed to adapt a more and more realistic view of their mother figure and of women in general, but there is a tendency nowadays, especially for men, to not want to give up the comfort and support of their mother(literally or psychologically), and this can cause the immature mother image to persist throughout their life, which then gets projected onto women as a whole
singularity2001over 2 years ago
&quot;benevolent sexism&quot;? there is always a flipside to -isms: If women are preferred, man are logically dispreferred.<p>(not complaining, just pointing it out)
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kurtreedover 2 years ago
There are studies showing bias against women, there are studies showing bias against men. This should remind us not to take any one reported bias and conclude that it represents the overall relationship between the sexes, even if politically convenient to do so.
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adolphover 2 years ago
I thought the phenomena was called the &quot;Althouse Rule,&quot; from the below blog post observation.<p><i>November 8, 2005</i><p><i>Scientists: remember to portray whatever you find to be true of women as superior.</i><p><i>I&#x27;ve said it before, and I must repeat, the rule is: If you do scientific research into the differences between men and women, you must portray whatever you find to be true of women as superior. And when you read reports about scientific research into the differences between men and women, use the hypothesis that the scientists are following that rule. It makes reading the reports quite humorous.</i><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;althouse.blogspot.com&#x2F;2005&#x2F;11&#x2F;scientists-remember-to-portray.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;althouse.blogspot.com&#x2F;2005&#x2F;11&#x2F;scientists-remember-to...</a>
theprincessover 2 years ago
Meta comment:<p>Yesterday it was the old OKCupid blogs today it&#x27;s WAW. I spent some time a few years ago exploring the incel wiki after one of the mass shootings that happened and saw these concepts popping up again and again. I feel like maybe these ideas are reaching a critical mass of young men lately and it will be interesting to see what the ramification of that are....<p>Looking at how men are doing in terms of life expectancy, educational attainment, career prospects, etc... does make it obvious something has gone very wrong for them as a group but I think there&#x27;s a real lack of any sort of positive vision going forward. Mostly I see lamentations of how much better women seem to have it or angry calls for a return to the status quo ante.<p>Is there someone with a positive vision for men? Jordan Peterson spews a bunch of nonsense about fighting dragons and embracing suffering but that&#x27;s not going to get men into universities or opening up emotionally with one another so that they stop drowning in lonely misery.<p>The one positive proposal I&#x27;ve seen lately was the suggestion that boys should start school at 6 instead of 5 since girls mature a bit more quickly which gives them a leg up in terms of academic achievement.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theatlantic.com&#x2F;magazine&#x2F;archive&#x2F;2022&#x2F;10&#x2F;boys-delayed-entry-school-start-redshirting&#x2F;671238&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theatlantic.com&#x2F;magazine&#x2F;archive&#x2F;2022&#x2F;10&#x2F;boys-de...</a>
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tgflynnover 2 years ago
All the studies cited were performed on psychology students. Would the results be the same for physics or CS students ?
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thomastjefferyover 2 years ago
So many of the comments in this thread are misinterpreting the phrase, &quot;benevolent sexism&quot;.<p>&quot;Benevolent&quot; is describing the context of the sexism, not judging that the sexism itself is morally good.<p>The context of the term still heavily implies that &quot;benevolent sexism&quot; is a moral&#x2F;social failure.<p>To call out an idea as &quot;benevolent sexism&quot; is just shorthand to say, &quot;despite this idea being framed as a positive affirmation, it reinforces the structure of traditional gender roles and sexism.&quot;
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fallingfrogover 2 years ago
The most interesting part of this -besides the obvious absurdity of &quot;benevolent sexism&quot;- is this line:<p>&quot;In more egalitarian societies, people have more positive attitudes towards men than in less egalitarian societies.&quot;<p>This makes sense to me- the person you&#x27;re going to fear the most is someone who has power over you. In the absence of toxic power dynamics, there would probably be a lot more social and sexual openness between the sexes. Probably a big part of what&#x27;s going on here is that men are seen as threatening in a way that women aren&#x27;t. And I don&#x27;t think there&#x27;s any biological reason that men should be seen as threatening. Cultural reasons, maybe, but those can be fixed.<p>By the way- please read what I actually wrote, not what you <i>assume I meant</i>, before downvoting. I&#x27;m not accusing anyone of anything, in fact I <i>specifically said</i> that <i>men are not bad or any worse than women</i>. If you didn&#x27;t catch that, read it again. Thank you.
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addictedover 2 years ago
All this research appears to be from the 80s and 90s. When women were still largely confined to being homemakers and soft jobs.<p>Since then research has shown that people tend to have far more negative views of women in power than equivalent men.<p>I suspect this derives more from the fact that women were simply not allowed positions of power and so if you guessed a woman was a homemaker and&#x2F;or in a caretaking job like a nurse or teacher you would almost certainly be right.
azangruover 2 years ago
I&#x27;m trying to remember someone&#x27;s words that if &lt;politician(s)&gt; were a woman, there wouldn&#x27;t have been &lt;bad things&gt;. As if...<p>Google has so far suggested to me Boris Johnson&#x27;s &quot;if Putin were a woman...&quot;, Kaja Kallas&#x27; (Estonian PM) &quot;If women were in charge...&quot;, and Sheryl Sandberg&#x27;s &quot;If women were in charge&quot;; but I am sure I heard this sentiment before 2022.<p>Probably a good illustration of the effect :-)
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Laaasover 2 years ago
Is this a bad thing if it&#x27;s accurate? Women are more well-behaved on average, no?
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crackercrewsover 2 years ago
Reminds me of kid shirts that say &quot;the future is female&quot;.
motohagiographyover 2 years ago
While I was hesitant to comment on the topic at all, it&#x27;s worth it for men to have words for the bias, because the entire moral code of a lot of men who tend toward agreeability is based on not-upsetting the women in their lives, or anywhere for that matter, and the effect is pernicious.<p>There is a maturation stage for men that traditionally happened in late adolescence that doesn&#x27;t seem as common these days. Now these men relate to women as though they expect women to supervise them, and expect other men to &quot;behave,&quot; in a way that is acceptable to their percieved feminine supervisors, or they have some kind of hyper-conscientious responsibility to blunt themselves around women so as to seem &quot;unthreatening&quot; to them, because they are still fundamentally actuated by shame, even though it is just a harness our species uses to manage children.<p>The anxiety originates from this unmatured Women are Wonderful bias, which boys are taught as children so they can be managed, but with the expectation that they grow out of it or leave it behind during a rite of passage. The result of not breaking men of this childhood harness is they grow up to be &quot;nice guys&quot; who are really just full of anxiety and resentment from navigating the absurd bind of believing their goodness and identity as a protagonist comes from being validated by the women they have placed in their supervisory pedastal roles, and because by treating women as better, they have implicitly made the women in their lives responsible for their feelings instead of taking complete ownership of their own emotions and lives. I meet these &quot;happy wife happy life&quot; guys all the time, and not only do they compete to debase themselves and accumulate sacrifices nobody asked for, but they take it out as resentment of other men whose freedom from that bias casts a light on that undocked lever of shame they wear around like a collar - and then ultimately the women in their lives.<p>Women are people, and for any quality in a population, people tend to be on pretty long tailed distributions. When you refuse to see the worst examples because of some well meaning bias, it leaves the great ones unappreciated, which I think is the most harmful bias of all. Men and women can be wonderful, but nobody gets there without a lot of practice, imo.<p>The question isn&#x27;t whether women are wonderful or not, as that&#x27;s a dumb dichotomy - it&#x27;s whether guys have matured into men by ceasing to be controlled by this internalized language of shame that was only necessary to keep them physically safe as children. Part of that is recognizing women aren&#x27;t symbols, but other people, who like men are responsible for their own actions and feelings, and above all, not a single one is responsible for yours either.
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lhorieover 2 years ago
&gt; Benevolent sexism<p>I mean, when attending a birthday or christmas party, who buys the presents?<p>Bias means that judgment about a topic doesn&#x27;t match reality. But is it really bias (or even more loadedly &quot;sexism&quot;) to think that stereotypical women do more likable things if we were to assume that was perhaps actually true?<p>Imagine, for example, saying that it&#x27;s &quot;benevonent species-ism&quot; to think that animals are on average more likely to be quadrupedal than humans. That&#x27;d be a silly assertion, because we know for a fact that this is true, and because the idea of more legs being better is weird for human standards. This thought exercise then begs the question: if we do think that thinking &quot;women are nicer&quot; is a form of bias, then what is the reality? Is the implication that they are not? That niceness should account for things other than nurturing attributes? According to who?<p>IMHO, the more interesting aspect of the observation of this effect is what it says about the people talking about it.
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readthenotes1over 2 years ago
Fitting that in an article like this author Alice has a wiki page but author Antonio does not.
brent_noordaover 2 years ago
Is that why Alexa, Siri, and OK Google, which are all wonderful, default to female voices?
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UncleOxidantover 2 years ago
Out of curiosity I googled &quot;percentage of US prison population that&#x27;s female&quot; and it&#x27;s ~10%. So is this partly why we have the &quot;women are wonderful&quot; bias (because women are apparently much less likely to commit violent crime)? Or is it that because of this bias fewer women end up in prison?
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tchaffeeover 2 years ago
Folks are rushing to criticize the term &quot;benevolent sexism&quot; without knowing what the technical term means. It&#x27;s not the gotcha you think it is.<p>tl;dr Benevolent sexism towards women is damaging to women. Likewise for benevolent sexism towards men. And yes, it is subjective. That&#x27;s in the definition.<p><i>&quot;Ambivalent sexism is a theoretical framework which posits that sexism has two sub-components: &quot;hostile sexism&quot; (HS)and &quot;benevolent sexism&quot; (BS). Hostile sexism reflects overtly negative evaluations and stereotypes about a gender (e.g., the ideas that women are incompetent and inferior to men). Benevolent sexism represents evaluations of gender that may appear subjectively positive (subjective to the person who is evaluating), but are actually damaging to people and gender equality more broadly&quot;</i><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Ambivalent_sexism" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Ambivalent_sexism</a>
dgudkovover 2 years ago
I&#x27;m curious to what extent the effect is country-specific.
f1shyover 2 years ago
I assume this is for western societies. I can imagine in the middle east this is a little bit different...