TE
TechEcho
Home24h TopNewestBestAskShowJobs
GitHubTwitter
Home

TechEcho

A tech news platform built with Next.js, providing global tech news and discussions.

GitHubTwitter

Home

HomeNewestBestAskShowJobs

Resources

HackerNews APIOriginal HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 TechEcho. All rights reserved.

Neurons in a dish learn to play Pong

229 pointsby rogerianover 2 years ago

24 comments

sidewndr46over 2 years ago
A question for someone who understands the neurology and biology of this much more than I do:<p>Once I have a group of neurons like this trained to do something, can I actually count on them to continue performing that task until they die? Or is it possible they spontaneously reorganize or &quot;learn&quot; a previously unseen behavioral pattern?
评论 #33210667 未加载
评论 #33210025 未加载
评论 #33211549 未加载
评论 #33210291 未加载
评论 #33209791 未加载
seydorover 2 years ago
i would urge people to read the paper instead. The &#x27;learning&#x27; is a bit iffy , and this was meant to test the brain theory of Friston rather than plug neurons into pong. Still, great job on the neurotechnology involved and a step in the direction where we should be going, controlling large numbers of neurons<p>Ars Technica has a better article, although they dont describe the dense electode array correctly: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;arstechnica.com&#x2F;science&#x2F;2022&#x2F;10&#x2F;a-dish-of-neurons-may-have-taught-itself-to-play-pong-badly&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;arstechnica.com&#x2F;science&#x2F;2022&#x2F;10&#x2F;a-dish-of-neurons-ma...</a>
评论 #33212307 未加载
评论 #33211110 未加载
superkuhover 2 years ago
This is about 40x more cells than they used to fly a fighter jet in a simulation back in 2004. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nature.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;nrn1572" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nature.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;nrn1572</a> .<p>I suppose the claim to fame in this similar study is the use of the title organoid and there&#x27;s some legitimacy to that. Form and function are intimately tied in the brain and just a bunch of neurons on a petri dish isn&#x27;t quite an organ.
评论 #33211856 未加载
评论 #33210232 未加载
评论 #33209202 未加载
yazzkuover 2 years ago
Funny how everybody here panics about &#x27;the hell&#x27; of experimenting with human brains that could possibly grow consciousness. What about the actual hell we put animals through so that we can eat them? There are also studies suggesting that, for example, crows and other animals have some form of consciousness:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.independent.co.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;science&#x2F;crows-consciousness-humans-primates-study-tubingen-university-germany-b717390.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.independent.co.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;science&#x2F;crows-consciousne...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.smithsonianmag.com&#x2F;smart-news&#x2F;do-crows-possess-form-consciousness-180975940&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.smithsonianmag.com&#x2F;smart-news&#x2F;do-crows-possess-f...</a><p>You don&#x27;t need to imagine hell, it&#x27;s already here.
d--bover 2 years ago
&gt; he work is a proof of principle that neurons in a dish can learn and exhibit basic signs of intelligence<p>Absolutely not. This shows that you can teach neurons to exhibit a reflex behavior adapted to the given stimuli - which shouldn’t come as a surprise. At best this is jellyfish-like level of intelligence.
评论 #33212707 未加载
评论 #33211873 未加载
评论 #33211781 未加载
评论 #33212564 未加载
ALittleLightover 2 years ago
They are using human neurons for this? The one substrate we can be sure of is capable of producing consciousness?
评论 #33209802 未加载
评论 #33209419 未加载
评论 #33209974 未加载
评论 #33210277 未加载
评论 #33212879 未加载
ummonkover 2 years ago
It seems needlessly provocative to use human neurons to do this. Presumably they could have had the same effects with neurons from another species. It’s like they want to provoke a backlash from religious people against scientific experimentation.
评论 #33211186 未加载
评论 #33218314 未加载
评论 #33212566 未加载
评论 #33211102 未加载
im3w1lover 2 years ago
So we can create microbrains of human neurons. Cool. But what about a gigabrain? Something smarter than all of us?<p>For the record I do think such a creation should have personhood. And have the right to learn about and interact with the real world.
Manuel_Dover 2 years ago
I wonder if in the future we&#x27;ll have some sort of FPGA formed by a neural dish. Hook up an HDMI port to a cube of neurons and it OCRs text or tracks objects. I suspect biological variations in cells would make the results inconsistent, and far inferior to what we can do with semiconductors presently, but it&#x27;s cool to think about.
grepfru_itover 2 years ago
Here&#x27;s an article that&#x27;s almost 20 years old on a similar topic<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20041023144731&#x2F;https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wired.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;medtech&#x2F;0,1286,65438,00.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20041023144731&#x2F;https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wired...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20041106064802&#x2F;http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.napa.ufl.edu&#x2F;2004news&#x2F;braindish.htm" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20041106064802&#x2F;http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.napa.u...</a><p>EDIT: it seems the researcher working on this project passed away recently :(
theflyingelvisover 2 years ago
Maybe they could run for senate in my home state
评论 #33211528 未加载
评论 #33211140 未加载
评论 #33212587 未加载
GolfPopperover 2 years ago
SF author (and marine biologist) Peter Watts described something very much like this, only more advanced, in his book <i>Maelstrom</i> (2001):<p>&quot;Achilles Desjardins had always found smart gels a bit creepy. People thought of them as brains in boxes, but they weren&#x27;t. They didn&#x27;t have the parts. Forget about the neocortex or the cerebellum—these things had nothing. No hypothalamus, no pineal gland, no sheathing of mammal over reptile over fish. No instincts. No desires. Just a porridge of cultured neurons, really: four-digit IQs that didn&#x27;t give a rat&#x27;s ass whether they even lived or died. Somehow they learned through operant conditioning, although they lacked the capacity either to enjoy reward or suffer punishment. Their pathways formed and dissolved with all the colorless indifference of water shaping a river delta.&quot;<p>Much of his work, including <i>Maelstrom</i>, is freely available on his own website:<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;rifters.com&#x2F;real&#x2F;shorts.htm" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;rifters.com&#x2F;real&#x2F;shorts.htm</a>
评论 #33211830 未加载
评论 #33211464 未加载
odrekfover 2 years ago
I tried to reply to someone but he got censored for pointing out that if you care about two neurons you should care about the animals that go through hell in the meat&#x2F;dairy industry. Here&#x27;s my reply:<p>One can&#x27;t hope to truly know if another individual (be it a human or any other animal) is conscious (the hard problem of consciousness). But if it has eyes like us, mouth like us, plays like us, cries&#x2F;screams when hurt like us, and even seem to dream like us (asleep dogs sometimes move like they are running in their dreams, and when they wake up they look confused and still perturbed from what they were seeing in their minds), it makes perfect sense to assume that they are conscious like us, and it&#x27;s the ethical thing to do.
评论 #33210751 未加载
_spduchampover 2 years ago
DishBrain is better for marketing than DishNightmares.
ofouover 2 years ago
It&#x27;s interesting to see research like this coming up. It might inform AI in unpredicted ways IMO.<p>&quot;In vitro neurons learn and exhibit sentience when embodied in a simulated game-world&quot;.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.sciencedirect.com&#x2F;science&#x2F;article&#x2F;pii&#x2F;S0896627322008066" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.sciencedirect.com&#x2F;science&#x2F;article&#x2F;pii&#x2F;S089662732...</a>
m3kw9over 2 years ago
Wonder then they can plug in a camera and output the visual from the brain from recall. And would that be called consciousness?
lvassover 2 years ago
Do we have an open source PetriNeuronSDK to communicate with these yet? I can&#x27;t wait until we get cloud neurons IaaS.
yieldcrvover 2 years ago
Makes me wonder how many states there are in a neuron.<p>Like, they are similar to transistors but have more states than off (0) and on (1).
norwalkbearover 2 years ago
They also grew eye like structures too right.
ruinedover 2 years ago
hell is real
janciover 2 years ago
Next step: run Doom
austinjpover 2 years ago
From the website of the lab doing this <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;corticallabs.com" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;corticallabs.com</a><p>Human neural networks raised in a simulation<p>The neurons exist inside our Biological Intelligence Operating System (biOS). biOS runs the simulation and sends information about their environment, with positive or negative feedback. It interfaces with the neurons directly. As they react, their impulses affect their digital world.<p>Our first minds<p>The dishbrain is currently being developed at the CL0 laboratory in Melbourne, AU. We bring these neurons to life, and integrate them into The biOS with a mixture of hard silicon and soft tissue. Our first cohort have learnt to play Pong. They grow, adapt and learn as we do.<p>Silicon meets neuron<p>Neurons are cultivated inside a nutrient rich solution, supplying them everything they need to be happy and healthy. Their physical growth is across a silicon chip, which has a set of pins that send electrical impulses into the neural structure, and receive impulses back in return.<p>The Ultimate Learning Machine<p>Those actions have a positive or negative effect in biOS, which the mind perceives, adapting to improve that feedback. The human neuron is self programming, infinitely flexible, the result of four billion years of evolution. What digital models try and emulate, we begin with.<p>Why?<p>There are many advantages to organic-digital intelligence. Lower power costs, more intuition, insight and creativity in our intelligences. But most importantly we are driven by three core questions.<p>What will we discover if our intelligences train themselves?<p>We know an organic mind is a better learner than any digital model. It can switch tasks easily, and bring learnings from one task to another. But more important is what we don’t know. What are the limits of a mind connected to infinity? What can it do with data it literally lives in?<p>What happens if we take a shortcut to generalised intelligence?<p>Machine Learning algorithms are a poor copy of the way an organic neural network functions. So we’re starting with the neuron, replacing decades of algorithms with millions of years of evolution. What happens as these native intelligences start solving the problems we’d previously left to software?<p>How can we surpass the limits of silicon?<p>Silicon is raw, rigid, unchanging. Our organic neural networks sit on top of this raw power, but the way they grow and evolve isn’t limited to the software they run on. There is no software, it&#x27;s coded in their DNA. How will computing change as we shift from hard silicon to soft tissue?<p>RFN: Request For Neurons<p>The dishbrain is learning and growing in biOS today, and soon we’re opening an early access preview for selected developers. The biOS is our simulation environment, where you can program tasks, challenges and objectives for our minds. Join our developer program to get early access to our SDK, and secure training time with our minds.
yrgulationover 2 years ago
Proper ai.
评论 #33209613 未加载
jjthebluntover 2 years ago
If there are extraterrestrials, &quot;Neurons in a dish learn to play Pong&quot; is probably the sort of thing they say while watching us from their UFOs.
评论 #33211731 未加载
评论 #33211273 未加载