TE
TechEcho
Home24h TopNewestBestAskShowJobs
GitHubTwitter
Home

TechEcho

A tech news platform built with Next.js, providing global tech news and discussions.

GitHubTwitter

Home

HomeNewestBestAskShowJobs

Resources

HackerNews APIOriginal HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 TechEcho. All rights reserved.

Centralization is inevitable, but decentralization is right behind it

170 pointsby agreeahmedover 2 years ago

32 comments

Ericson2314over 2 years ago
The point of open protocols is not that there will actually be many providers, but that one could switch providers easily if they do something fishy. It&#x27;s about the threat, and what can happen on margin.<p>Keeping a sword dangling over the monopolist&#x27;s head is reasonable.
评论 #33426866 未加载
评论 #33425726 未加载
评论 #33424689 未加载
评论 #33424116 未加载
BirAdamover 2 years ago
Centralization and decentralization happen in waves as a natural result of ossification and complexity growth.<p>As an example, IBM was once the dominant market force in computation. As the business grew and became increasingly byzantine, it was unable to respond to market changes or market demands in any meaningful way, and therefore the market became decentralized. This happened to Microsoft. If Apple continues on its current path it will happen to Apple. If Google continues on its current path, this will happen to Google. The entire internet was once significantly decentralized both in structure and in content providers. The content got silo&#x27;d by a few major players, and it is now swinging back the opposite direction while the structure is becoming increasingly AWS&#x2F;Azure&#x2F;Google. This too will eventually start going the opposite direction as those infrastructure providers ossify.<p>Nothing is forever.
评论 #33425394 未加载
评论 #33425880 未加载
aidenn0over 2 years ago
I&#x27;m beginning to suspect that we will not see a federated protocol as successful as e-mail in my lifetime. I would, in fact, be only mildly surprised to see e-mail become much less federated than it is today (which is <i>much</i> less federated than it was 20 years ago).<p>Spam (and other bad actors) is one huge, and obvious, reason why; it&#x27;s led to a significant consolidation in e-mail as well; SMTP delivery is hit-or-miss these days, and you can get ahold of a person to fix it only if you are &quot;big enough&quot;<p>The web plays a big part in this too. You can continuously deliver a client that updates its protocol in lock-step with the backend. This makes alternative clients something hard to do, and if you can&#x27;t separate the client from the service, then it significantly increases the friction to change. Eudora didn&#x27;t care which e-mail server it connected to, and you could take Eudora with you when you got a new ISP and lost your old e-mail address.<p>How much of my monthly fees to fastmail is spent on delivering e-mail, and how much of it is &quot;keeping up with the gmail webclient&quot;? I suspect it&#x27;s more on the latter than the former.
评论 #33443684 未加载
nicopapplover 2 years ago
It is true that power laws are seen everywhere, and that there are reason for those.<p>I like the article, because it exposes very quickly a very powerful idea, but I disagree with the conclusion.<p>Information networks are built by humans, they are designed, they are not necessarily bound by the rules of evolution. Which means we may yet be able to find a system that is not afflicted by the curse of perpetual destruction and reconstruction.
评论 #33424804 未加载
评论 #33424268 未加载
kornholeover 2 years ago
When framed as extremes in a false dichotomy, centralization seems the better option. In the reality of decentralized social media servers, thousands of community servers of various sizes rather than individuals make up most of the nodes and homes for people. In the current #Twittermigration, the biggest general servers are buckling from the mass inflows of members. More servers are easily springing up to provide new homes. The architects and maintainers of the fediverse anticipated the need to make setup and administration easy, but we were maybe not prepared for such a big pulse. Thanks for the boost Elon.
photochemsynover 2 years ago
That power-law comparison between major freeways and air travel routes is quite misleading, IMO. The highly dense road networks surrounding the major cities (i.e. around Los Angeles, Bay Area, Seattle, Houston, New York-to-Florida, etc.) are left out, but for comparison to air travel they need to be included. Doing so would generate a very different map (with a very different power law).<p>The freeway map shown looks like the major truck-freight corridor for transporting goods (many collected at coast ports from overseas shipping) across the country to warehouses and distribution centers, certainly not what most people use for travel by car. Hence, comparison to air travel doesn&#x27;t make much sense.<p>As far as centralization and decentralization, for most things this comes down to technological limitations (ignoring the issue of economic monopolies blocking local regions from adopting the latest technologies). Local agriculture and local energy production are a lot easier to maintain (and benefit from no transport costs), than say, local chip foundries. Maybe someday cheap 3D printers capable of spitting out nanoscale RISC-V products in someone&#x27;s garage will be available, but certainly not anytime soon.
skybrianover 2 years ago
Nit: Dunbar’s number is casually used in a way that doesn’t seem relevant here. It’s not true that we can only remember about 150 entities. People know many thousands of words.<p>(It is true that there are limits on what people will remember.)
评论 #33424704 未加载
评论 #33424076 未加载
seydorover 2 years ago
the internet is even less constrained than the airport network. With practically zero friction keeping it in check, it can centralize completely. So, we can&#x27;t put our eggs on decentralization, but instead we should put them on competition. Seemingly however, there is no competitor to silicon valley. And the valley itself is extremely anticompetitive and monopolistic, with different parts of the net being consolidated to a few monopolistic giants. our hope for competing ideas in digital networking are going to come from siloed out ecosystems, like china and russia. Indeed, the cold war was a time of great progress in almost everything
评论 #33425288 未加载
cdataover 2 years ago
Plug: I&#x27;m working with the author on a decentralized protocol for networked thought and a companion browser called Subconscious. We&#x27;re a very young project and just getting off the ground.<p>If you&#x27;re interested in topics like the one in the article, all our work is open source and we love getting into it with folks on Github or our Discord (link in the README): <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;subconsciousnetwork&#x2F;noosphere" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;subconsciousnetwork&#x2F;noosphere</a>
评论 #33426013 未加载
评论 #33427559 未加载
评论 #33431316 未加载
throwawaaarrghover 2 years ago
Whenever people use those words by themselves, it sounds like they don&#x27;t have much information but are trying to form some conversation anyway.<p>Centralization and its opposite are <i>extremely general concepts</i>. You can&#x27;t have a conversation about them because they mean nothing without specific context. Adding &quot;the internet &quot; or &quot;the web&quot; doesn&#x27;t help because they&#x27;re very vague too. It&#x27;s like talking about &quot;drinks&quot; versus &quot;not-drinks&quot;.
kkfxover 2 years ago
Centralization means easier driver for those who centralize and SPOFs. We centralize anytime we want an easy path even if it&#x27;s fragile, and always resulting consequences are bad after a short &quot;honeymoon&quot; timeframe.<p>My conclusion then is different: we need <i>common ideas</i>, <i>common tools</i> not centralization. What&#x27;s wrong with the classic web? Well that information access without search engines was a nightmare, but there is no need of &quot;central&quot; search engines as network hubs. YaCy offer an example FLOSS implementation of a distributed search network whose effectiveness much depend on numbers of indexing peers. In a fully &quot;common web&quot; all who host html pages also participate in the search distributed network and search quality became excellent, than some argue we can also distribute webpages like the ZeroNet idea and a new VERY FAST and VERY EFFECTIVE web is here. Oh, it&#x27;s utopia just because of big players interests against the most and ignorance of the most, witch is not a technical thing. And that&#x27;s just an example.<p>Logistic networks are another example where the centralized free scale network is easier than a hub-less network, but fragile, while a hub-less network is hard to keep, especially if not all nodes cooperate, but far more resilient.<p>The same happen in politics with historical absolute monarchy vs democracies and pretty anywhere else.<p>My final reminder: in winter is cold, in summer is hot, sometimes is too dry, sometimes too wet, we human as essentially any living being have tried our best to &quot;mitigate&quot; such natural phenomenon to live better. If certain free-scale networks are a natural thing that does not means we have to accept them without trying to made something better for us.
cjtrowbridgeover 2 years ago
Centralization is a prevailing force. There are also many countervailing forces.
dathinabover 2 years ago
We centralize because we created&#x2F;use a economical system where that such system behaviour is promoted.<p>We could also use a system which demotes or outright forbids too much centralization.<p>So it&#x27;s not inevitable at all.<p>Or at least it isn&#x27;t if you just look at how people are likely to interpret the title, reading &quot;centralization&quot; as in &quot;central to the whole system&quot;.<p>Local increases in &quot;centralization&quot; are normal, e.g. people centralize in cities, but calling that centralization is misleading IMHO. They are local aggregates not central to the whole system.<p>More important if we e.g. look at (biological) nature centralization is nearly always the prelude of collapse and anything more then very localized centralization is often an indication for potential problems.<p>So we probably should change our system to demote too much centralization.
apiover 2 years ago
Decentralization is sort of a bad term in that it can have very different contextual meanings and the exact meaning is hard to pin down.<p>I like looking at it from a perspective of privacy, ownership&#x2F;sovereignty, and choice.<p>A system that has a few dominant centralized players that are <i>interchangeable</i> is decentralized as far as I&#x27;m concerned. An example would be static web hosting. A system with hosted centralized options but where I can also self-host is also decentralized. An example would be something like GitLab.<p>I want systems where I own and control my own data and where it&#x27;s not being data mined without my approval. I want systems where someone isn&#x27;t always looking over my shoulder. I want systems that treat me as the customer not the product.
Barrin92over 2 years ago
Hierarchy and centralization are ways to manage complexity and stay efficient as the article correctly points out but one additional point, topological pressures aside is also division of labour and specialization.<p>Sufficiently large systems benefit more and more from specialization, the emergence of content delivery networks on top of the more generic internet is an example. As the types of content we consume are getting more and more sophisticated, bandwidth heavy and capital intensive, specialized infrastructure and distribution pays off more and more.<p>For that reason peertube and other alternatives are pretty much structurally doomed. They&#x27;ll never compete or be as economical as services and infrastructure optimized for that task.
ETH_startover 2 years ago
This criticism of the Ethereum ecosystem also does an excellent job of identifying the forces that undermine decentralization in the long run:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;moxie.org&#x2F;2022&#x2F;01&#x2F;07&#x2F;web3-first-impressions.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;moxie.org&#x2F;2022&#x2F;01&#x2F;07&#x2F;web3-first-impressions.html</a><p>One reason the blockchain has persisted longer than other decentralized systems is that it introduced economic incentives for maintaining its system. I think this is the best strategy for making decentralized systems that resist the tendency toward centralization while remaining competitive with centralized ones.
MarkPNeyerover 2 years ago
The author doesn’t understand bitcoin; The pie chart is misleading. All you have to do to see that it is wrong is see how the chart has changed over time. Why isn’t one big mining pool taking all the others? Why did the miners lose the block-size wars?
nonrandomstringover 2 years ago
&quot;Inevitable&quot; is the last desperate cry of those who have given up thinking.
评论 #33425379 未加载
lawrenceyanover 2 years ago
Oh hey super cool, I think these are what you call small-world networks which show up in a lot of different places.<p>I’m actually reading a chapter right now on the architecture of the brain that talks a lot about this in the context of our neural connections: Chapter 2 or Cycle 2 “Structure Defines Function”[0].<p>[0]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;neurophysics.ucsd.edu&#x2F;courses&#x2F;physics_171&#x2F;Buzsaki%20G.%20Rhythms%20of%20the%20brain.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;neurophysics.ucsd.edu&#x2F;courses&#x2F;physics_171&#x2F;Buzsaki%20...</a>
1vuio0pswjnm7over 2 years ago
tl;dr Large, centralised networks are better for data collection and advertising than smaller, decentralised ones.<p>Centralisation versus decentralisation should not be an either&#x2F;or style debate.<p>It is possible to have both types of networks. Each can be valuable in different contexts.<p>For example, we need to have networks for noncommercial purposes as well as commercial ones. Small networks, e.g., L2&#x2F;3 overlays, managed by their users can be useful for noncommercial purposes. Large networks managed by central third party authorities can be useful for commercial purposes.<p>With respect to noncommercial internetworks, one lesson of The Internet is that large scales ones are inherently disadvantaged. Besides the problem of proprietary, non-compatible protocols mentioned in the top comment, centralised &quot;infinite scale&quot; networks also become infested with &quot;tech&quot; companies, commercial intermediaries, who usurp them as honeypots for commercial and political advertisers.^1<p>On &quot;The Internet&quot;, noncommercial network use, e.g., communicating with friends and family, is being compromised for commercial purposes by a relatively small number of single, central authority websites. Hundreds of millions of people with small networks of friends and family, e.g., less than 100 nodes, are being unecessarily intermediated by central &quot;hubs&quot; that collect data and serve targeted advertising and&#x2F;or sell advertising services.<p>If those smaller networks were not connected nor managed by a third parties, then the attraction of injecting advertising into peoples&#x27; noncommercial internet use falls dramatically. The incentive for, and feasibiity of, data collection is similarly reduced. Those are features, not bugs.<p>Whereas for commercial uses, e.g., sales of goods and services, inter-business communications, etc., small networks are far less valuable. For these applications, we need networks that scale to large sizes. Arguably that utility has already been proven as successful. Advertising and data collection may be appropriate in the commercial context.<p>1. The irony is that The Internet was supposed to be a means of disintermediation. In some contexts, that is true. In others, it has allowed for the greatest level of intermediation in history.
wslhover 2 years ago
It is much simpler to explain that in this article: centralization is inevitable because the UI&#x2F;UX you use for entering any protocol (decentralized or not) is centralized. Hence the UI&#x2F;UX could decide what to show and the order.<p>It could be call &quot;the listing problem&quot;, you can decentralize Amazon (e.g. OpenBazaar) but at the end the app you use to list the product could censor and filter what they want without caring about the protocol behind.
knaekhovedover 2 years ago
&quot;The highway network is not scale-free&quot; - no shit, highways refer to roads of a specific size. You&#x27;re taking a slice out of the road distribution.
armchairhackerover 2 years ago
Centralization is better than decentralization in 99% of cases, but the 1% is really important: when the centralized system fails, or is controlled by an adversary (e.g. malicious government).<p>IMO decentralized internet (and social media and currency) should be possible, routinely tested, and readily-available when the centralized internet fails. But a neutral, trusted, central server will is basically always preferred when it is available.
评论 #33427071 未加载
humanistbotover 2 years ago
Tim Wu makes a similar argument in The Master Switch, a history of information networks and monopolies going back to telegraph networks in the 19th century.
评论 #33423532 未加载
happytigerover 2 years ago
Centralization is just the impact of digitization. Digitization is inevitable, because efficiencies are tremendous.<p>Then you will have a battle for control of centralization centered on verifiable identity, kyc and centered ultimately around financial system control, which is the center use case of centralized identity platforms.<p>All incentives during this phase are centralization, consolidation and scale. Decentralization efforts will be carefully controlled and excluded by very powerful interests. Financial incentives will prevent meaningful adoption.<p>The carrot will initially be digital money centered on banking directly in the Federal Reserve. Those licenses have been issues for several years and the direction is clear.<p>There is a lot of carrot left to fuel the consolidation phase, and as economic conditions change and global conditions degrade people will embrace centralized solutions in the short term.<p>Then you will have an interruption to the central control systems which will lead to decentralized systems.<p>It will take much longer than people realize for this cycle to play out. We’re still in the consolidation phase. I’m a huge believer in decentralized systems, but like self-driving cars, it’s less of a technology problem and more of an autocratic and powerful interest story.
评论 #33427860 未加载
roschdalover 2 years ago
Centralisation and decentralization goes in cycles. When we centralized too much, it breaks down, and the cycle repeats.
评论 #33424274 未加载
hosejaover 2 years ago
It&#x27;s literally just this haha: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;The_Course_of_Empire_(paintings)" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;The_Course_of_Empire_(painting...</a>
m463over 2 years ago
You can centralize things... on yourself or your family.
padobsonover 2 years ago
It&#x27;s also worth mentioning that in order to increase your status in any of these networks, you&#x27;re going to have to serve the central nodes in some way. So if you&#x27;re trying to grow your social media following, eventually you&#x27;re going to have to get the attention of an influencer who will in turn rub off some of their influence on you. If you&#x27;re trying to increase your capital, you&#x27;re going to need to provide value to some influential capitalist. If you want to increase your political power, you&#x27;re going to have to be appointed&#x2F;elected to a role in some powerful political institution.
LatteLazyover 2 years ago
And yet our economic and social systems have never been more decentralised...
评论 #33423977 未加载
评论 #33423467 未加载
评论 #33423306 未加载
评论 #33423358 未加载
Razenganover 2 years ago
I bet there&#x27;s a true hive-mind species out there that would disagree.
评论 #33424090 未加载
pjkundertover 2 years ago
That is, until the ease, quality and utility of fully decentralized systems exceeds the pain of the fragility and abusiveness of the current centralized offerings.<p>The power of unenclosable carriers offered by breakthroughs such as Holochain <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;holo.host" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;holo.host</a> is breathtaking.
评论 #33422836 未加载
评论 #33424381 未加载
评论 #33423403 未加载