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Tim Berners-Lee: Web3 is not the web

446 pointsby TangerineDreamover 2 years ago

26 comments

throw7over 2 years ago
&quot;Personal data stores have to be fast, cheap and private.&quot;<p>Uh yeah. That&#x27;s called a Personal Computer - &quot;PC&quot; if you haven&#x27;t heard of it.<p>The problem is that technology came along and gave us a &quot;PC&quot; in our hand (cell phones) that wasn&#x27;t a &quot;PC&quot;. What we need is an actual &quot;PC&quot; in our hand. That is: a cell phone that is under the control of the user (and no, a &quot;global single-sign on&quot; sounds absolutely worse than &quot;web3&quot; &lt;- whatever that is).
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1970-01-01over 2 years ago
&gt;Web3 is a nebulous term in the tech world used to describe a hypothetical future version of the internet that’s more decentralized than it is today and not dominated by a handful of powerful players such as Amazon, Microsoft and Google.<p>This is not some hypothetical version of the Internet. This was how it worked until the early 2000s. Google and Amazon weren&#x27;t evil back then. Microsoft was actively developing IE and had good intentions after it won the browser war. Almost everything was decentralized.
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abeppuover 2 years ago
So, we should ignore Web3. Fine.<p>But should we ignore Solid? The project started in 2016. Can you _do_ anything with it yet? You can &quot;start a pod&quot;, but all the apps are clearly written to demonstrate the platform features rather than to _do_ anything or meet any user need. Of the ones listed, I couldn&#x27;t actually get any to work with a newly created pod.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;solidproject.org&#x2F;users&#x2F;get-a-pod" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;solidproject.org&#x2F;users&#x2F;get-a-pod</a> <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;solidproject.org&#x2F;apps" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;solidproject.org&#x2F;apps</a>
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superkuhover 2 years ago
I&#x27;d go further than this and suggest that web applications, sites that don&#x27;t display anything without executing code, are not web at all. They just use web protocol to transfer the executable. And pretty soon most web applications will switch to using HTTP&#x2F;3 implemented on QUIC so they won&#x27;t even be using HTTP.
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WFHRenaissanceover 2 years ago
Everyone on HN needs to take a week to actually look into crypto projects. Nothing that makes headlines is ever good, and it&#x27;s clear that&#x27;s where most of the opinions of it on here are sourced from.<p>You&#x27;re doing yourself a definite disservice by not investing a smidgeon of your time.<p>You are looking at a garden and remarking about the rotten veggies on the soil floor.
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hiidrewover 2 years ago
&gt; His new startup aims to address this through three ways: A global “single sign-on” feature that lets anyone log in from anywhere. Login IDs that allow users to share their data with others. A “common universal API,” or application programming interface, that lets apps pull data from any source.<p>Cool to see his project is centered around these goals, but also funny because these are some of the few aspects that I find interesting about Ethereum. Much more interested in the identity&#x2F;SSO potential vs the financial stuff.
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constantcryingover 2 years ago
Blockchains just are not a particularly good datastructure for most applications.<p>In cryptospace you will easily find projects where the creators took an idea and inserted a blockchain instead of a traditional database. Web3 is the same idea. But this idea is obviously really bad, blockchains are an extremely niche datastructure. They are write only and established by consensus. Most databases shouldn&#x27;t have these properties and forcing them in will lead into a giant mess.
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rvzover 2 years ago
&gt; “It’s a real shame in fact that the actual Web3 name was taken by Ethereum folks for the stuff that they’re doing with blockchain. In fact, Web3 is not the web at all.”<p>Translation: &#x27;I&#x27;m so angry and annoyed that Ethereum has gotten more traction over the actual Web3 name than my still in research Solid project and wondering why little to no-one has heard of it let alone is using it. Please ignore Web3 as hard as you can.&#x27;<p>At this point, it appears that crypto is going to be around for a very long time and there will be no complete and total ban on all of it by the extreme and absolutist crypto skeptics.
zeroclipover 2 years ago
Web3 is just &quot;web with a sprinkle of crypto and blockchains.&quot; The problem space is narrow, and different than what DNS and HTTPS tries to solve. But its not useless, and probably will continue to grow as part of the web.
mybridover 2 years ago
I&#x27;m sorry but I want Internet 2 before Web 3. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Internet2" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Internet2</a>
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ameliusover 2 years ago
Web3 is an online casino.
grapplerover 2 years ago
I wonder what Tim Berners-Lee would think about the framing that says Web3 is about being self-certifying.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;jaygraber.medium.com&#x2F;web3-is-self-certifying-9dad77fd8d81" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;jaygraber.medium.com&#x2F;web3-is-self-certifying-9dad77f...</a><p>In the context of TBL&#x27;s invention combining urls, hypertext, and http, this is about the authentication and authorization steps that ask, &quot;who is making the request, and should they be sent the resource they requested?&quot;<p>Lacking great peer-to-peer approaches to this, we&#x27;ve gotten certificate authorities and tech giants acting as identity providers. Web3 is about exploring more decentralized approaches here which may, but by no means necessarily, involve blockchains.
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mattwilsonn888over 2 years ago
When VC gets to appropriate a new paradigm for the sake of driving speculation people&#x27;s opinions on both sides become quite uninteresting. To debate Web3 the way most of HN is content to do it is to accept the framing of the loud and careless non-visionaries - on <i>both</i> sides.
specialistover 2 years ago
All (successful) mediums (markets) become centralized. Per winner-takes-all. Unless it&#x27;s actively prevented.<p>&quot;Web3&quot; hubris is to be centralized from the jump, skipping a few steps of the (apparently natural) medium lifecycle. Like Ted Nelson&#x27;s Xanadu, Zuck&#x27;s Megaverse, and any number of other exquisite future perfect big bang utopias. Given the historical record, success of this strategy is unlikely.<p>(John Carmack&#x27;s paraphrasing of the &quot;all successful complicated systems started simple&quot; criticism of Zuck&#x27;s betaverse makes the same point.)<p>Nitpick: Demographic data is aggegregated and monitized. It is not siloed.
nailerover 2 years ago
&gt; “They’re too slow too expensive and too public. Personal data stores have to be fast, cheap and private.”<p>Most web3 transactions are done on Solana which is fast and cheap (albeit not private). Even a cursory glance at web3 would reveal this.
nr2xover 2 years ago
What does this jerk know about the web? Never heard of him!
eointierneyover 2 years ago
Web3 is a computational tax on verifiable communication to satisfy financial speculation. Don&#x27;t.
stevenaloweover 2 years ago
Solid is a great technical idea with no compelling application. yet.<p>web3 is just a terrible idea
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Communitivityover 2 years ago
I hate Web3...and I love Web3.<p>Let me explain.<p>Web3 is akin to SOA. The concept of service-orientation was great. We could think of systems as discrete services, each single responsibility, and each working with other services to accomplish a system. Awesome. And so it became popular. Then training courses, certifications, consultants all started to appear in order to cash in on this new thing. It took little time to get to the point where you could ask 10 people what SOA really meant and get 15 different answers, some of them completely incompatible with each other.<p>A similar thing happened with REST. A similar thing happens to many ground-breaking technologies that get popular, or make good sound-bites.<p>So..Web3. Web3 started as a bunch of other things:<p>* VRM - Vendor Relationship Management, the inverse of Customer Relationship Management, where the power and data control is shifted to the customer<p>* Decentralized Identifiers - IDs that aren&#x27;t controlled by some third party organization like Google, your company, or the government. This has come in different versions, including info:, XRIs, SOLID, DIDs.<p>* DApps - Applications that run within the browser and communicate among themselves (and possibly other services) to accomplish tasks and save state. Everyone ties DApps to blockchain smart contracts, but that is just one implementation of the DApp concept.<p>* DAO - Distributed Autonomous Organizations. This is nothing more than a set of cooperating software agents that execute control over assets based on a provided policy. Policy could be if&#x2F;else rules, a smart contract, a machine learning CN, or other things. So again, not necessarily blockchain. Charles Stross&#x27;s Accelerando has a great example of a DAO.<p>* Distributed Ledgers - This is where the blockchain comes in. However, you don&#x27;t need to use a cryptocurrency to do a distributed ledger, it&#x27;s just a common way of doing it right now that is perpetuated in part because it makes people money. Check out the Apache Hyperledger project for more info on distributed ledgers.<p>* Decentralized Web - Am early term that combined some of the above. Which of the above depends on who you are talking to, but often it included VRM, DApps, Decentralized Identifiers and possibly Distributed Ledgers.<p>Now add hype (lot&#x27;s of hype) and a hunger for cash (an insatiable hunger, think Ghnomb, the troll god of eat from David Edding&#x27;s Elenium series). Both of those things latched onto cryptocurrencies and stirred them into the Decentralized Web mix of concepts. This amalgam birthed the abomination we know as Web3.<p>But don&#x27;t worry, Web4 is just around the corner. It&#x27;ll arrive as soon as a new innovative technology arrives that is deemed a sufficiently hype-worthy and plump-enough cash cow. My bet is that you will start seeing VR&#x2F;AR as Web4 within the next few years.<p>Barnhill&#x27;s First Law: Any technology movement with a number in it&#x27;s name is hyper - either ignore it or seek to understand the possibly 20% gems within it and throw away the 80% dross (e.g., Web3 and 5G).
RadixDLTover 2 years ago
web3 is multiversX <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;multiversx.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;multiversx.com&#x2F;</a>
superb-owlover 2 years ago
TBL&#x27;s Solid is a decent attempt to build a decentralized web. But imo it leans too heavily on clunky w3c protocols instead of building something new. The developer experience (at least when I tried it a few years ago) was awful. The end user experience isn&#x27;t much better.<p>The problem seems to be that any move towards decentralization necessarily comes with a hit to convenience or ease of use. So outside of the tiny subculture that cares about these things, these projects never get much traction.<p>That said, I hope we keep building them--there could be a political future where they come in handy.
yawzover 2 years ago
Thankfully it doesn’t take to be TB-L to deduce that.
jandreseover 2 years ago
I don&#x27;t even understand what Web3 is. Whenever I try to learn about it the discussion digresses into blockchain pyramid schemes that clearly won&#x27;t scale and other such nonsense. Certainly Web3 isn&#x27;t just crypto-bros trying to take over the web? Why would anybody outside of the crypto scam sphere care about it if that were the case?
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otikikover 2 years ago
Web3 is a series of scams connected together by grift.
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mjburgessover 2 years ago
I count myself as a glad evangelist of the counter-reaction to this wave of technobabble charlatanism.<p>Can we arrange to bankrupt Andreeson? Can we un-fi defi? Can we jail them all?<p>I&#x27;d suppose not. I&#x27;d hope someone has a match: light it!
encryptluks2over 2 years ago
Truth be told, while a legend of his time Tim Berners-Lee is a dinosaur who while likely has great insight also comes from a different generation. He&#x27;s not much different than other blockchain cheerleaders each pushing their own solution. IPFS is the closest we&#x27;ve came to Web3 or whatever you want to call it, but there is still a lot of issues. Where blockchain solutions fall short is none of them are really decentralized. An ideal Web3 IMO would be a distributed storage that you can contribute a certain amount of storage on practically any device and it is able to predict and allocate resources efficiently to scale at datacenter level performance.
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