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Twenty questions is a weird game

127 pointsby cmsparksover 2 years ago

32 comments

cyodeover 2 years ago
Back in the 90s as a kid, one year I got a handheld 20 Questions electronic game as a stocking stuffer for Christmas. I remember being astonished that this dumb little plastic pod with rubber Yes&#x2F;No buttons and LCD screen &quot;beat me&quot; by guessing the first thing I tried (the Mona Lisa) in 8 or so guesses.<p>The author quips that &quot;twenty questions isn’t enough to guess almost anything&quot;, but I wonder if most people taking their first crack at the game (usually as children) pick something squarely in the 2^20 most popular things.<p>(My friend&#x27;s dad was really good at picking words. I remember he stumped us for an entire restaurant visit with &quot;the cub in the Chicago Cubs logo&quot;.)
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lofatdairyover 2 years ago
This reminds me of jan Misali&#x27;s analysis of Hangman (in fact the title is so similar that I&#x27;m inclined to believe that it&#x27;s definitely inspired despite not mentioning the video or Misali by name) [^1]. In any case, I&#x27;m obviously inclined to agree that they&#x27;re both weird games, and that the weirdness comes from their fundamental asymmetry. It definitely reminds me of a sort of ritualized play, where an asymmetry is &quot;artificially&quot; constructed for the purpose of being broken down. There&#x27;s a fictionalized power dynamic that gets produced, yet the erosion of this dynamic isn&#x27;t just the point, it&#x27;s often aided by the one in power (how many times have I given my friends hints or extra chances in both games).<p>&gt; It’s cooperative because everyone is ultimately working toward a common goal: deducing the answer<p>I think this point gets pretty close to why these games are fun or interesting to begin with. I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s necessarily because that they teach you about a person based on the object they choose or the guesses they make, but the fact that the game operates at all. In some sense it&#x27;s like a puzzle, but unlike a puzzle doesn&#x27;t just operate on its prima facie rules - because if you can&#x27;t solve a puzzle then that&#x27;s just too bad, but if 20 questions doesn&#x27;t end then something is off. In seems that 20 questions is interesting because there are social conventions within which it operates and playing by those conventions seems to demonstrate a social and emotional understanding that power dynamics within the relationship will be cooperatively undermined.<p>[^1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;le5uGqHKll8" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;le5uGqHKll8</a>
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WobbuPaloozaover 2 years ago
A fun thing about Twenty Questions is how old it is.<p>Here it is in French in 1788, as &quot;The Twelve Questions&quot; but still beginning with the question animal, vegetable, or mineral: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.google.com&#x2F;books&#x2F;edition&#x2F;Les_soir%C3%A9es_amusantes_ou_entretien_sur&#x2F;1xDfis_LuXkC?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;pg=PA162&amp;printsec=frontcover" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.google.com&#x2F;books&#x2F;edition&#x2F;Les_soir%C3%A9es_amusan...</a><p>Here it is in English in 1796, as &quot;Game of Twenty&quot;: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.google.com&#x2F;books&#x2F;edition&#x2F;The_Juvenile_Olio_Or_Mental_Medley&#x2F;1sIYAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;pg=PA226&amp;printsec=frontcover" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.google.com&#x2F;books&#x2F;edition&#x2F;The_Juvenile_Olio_Or_Me...</a><p>I haven&#x27;t looked too hard for earlier examples in other sources. I see Sorel had a game called the Game of Questions in the 1600s, but it&#x27;s pretty different: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;wobbupalooza.neocities.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;wobbupalooza.neocities.org&#x2F;</a>
bredrenover 2 years ago
The first iPhone app my pal Dave and me put up on the App Store in 2008 was a tip calculator.<p>The second was 20 Questions. The app provided prompts and a paddle to keep track of the guess count.<p>It was a nice little app because it made iPhone social.<p>We called the app iQ because the iProduct pattern was still in force and it was cool to camp the name space.<p>We sold a bunch of copies of this game, but not nearly as many as we later made on Baby Names, the first baby name app in the App Store.<p>It was the gold rush era, you could still come up with simple ideas and be the first to put it up on the App Store.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20090101213438&#x2F;http:&#x2F;&#x2F;neutrinosllc.com&#x2F;products&#x2F;iphone&#x2F;applications&#x2F;iq&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20090101213438&#x2F;http:&#x2F;&#x2F;neutrinosl...</a>
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riversflowover 2 years ago
&gt; 20 questions is not a word game<p>I find this ironic, as the author treats it like a word game. I&#x27;ve always played that it has to be a &quot;thing&quot; by the typical sense of the word, e.g. an object. Sometimes with bounds, like something you saw today. The problem with &quot;intangible things&quot; is they are essentially imaginary, and therefore subject to the whimsy of the answerer, as they point out. Does an Air Guitar make noise? Is an Air Guitar a gesture, what about a form of dancing?<p>Objects don&#x27;t have that problem but still can make for incredibly interesting games.
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vikneshover 2 years ago
A small nit:<p>&gt; As John Green (or Georg Cantor) taught us, some infinities are bigger than others—and the number of things is a really big infinity<p>I don&#x27;t think this statement is true, at least not in the context it&#x27;s given. At most, we&#x27;d only be able to think of countably many things, which is the smallest infinity.
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dabigedover 2 years ago
I played this game with physicist friends and the favorite word was &#x27;shadow&#x27;. It was the only everyday object not composed of something in the standard model. It stumped everyone.
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irrationalover 2 years ago
My kids used to have this 20 questions toy. It was always able to figure out anything I thought of in less than 20 questions. Apparently, I’m terrible at coming up with things to guess. Now I want to find that toy, put in new batteries, and try it against the list of things mentioned at the bottom of this article.
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seniorsassycatover 2 years ago
I recommend werewords for a twist on Twenty Questions and the best version of Werewolves - the hidden role deduction game.<p>Some players know the word but want to ask misleading questions but with out the other players noticing.
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Strawover 2 years ago
A community built, evolving one for characters: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.akinator.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.akinator.com&#x2F;</a><p>Its genuinely hard to find someone (real or fictional) who it can&#x27;t find!
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coldteaover 2 years ago
&gt;<i>You might be thinking, wait, if there are infinitely many things to narrow down, couldn’t the game take infinitely long? Theoretically, maybe, but in practice, no. This is kind of a paradox. Even though we can conceive of infinitely many things, any particular thing will be guessable in a finite number of questions. After all, the answerer can only reach so far into the infinite depths of the universe before they decide on a thing</i><p>It&#x27;s probably not like the answerer has access to more than, say, 1M things - I mean as things they can juggle in their mind and pick among.<p>Let&#x27;s say recording artists: there are 100s of thousands of them globally. But a regular person will perhaps know&#x2F;recall at best 100-1000 max distinct ones, even if they have heard 2x or 3x others. And they&#x27;d be the most likely another would know too.<p>Or let&#x27;s take numbers: those can be constructed (you don&#x27;t need to know a number ahead of time to think of it - I can think of 2345324532435245 but I didn&#x27;t have that in mind as something I&#x27;ve encountered already, I just know that that would be a number, I just need to pile on digits to come up with one). So, yes, this would overflow the &quot;set of items to pick&quot;. But &quot;I&#x27;m thinking of the specific number X&quot; is not commonly or ever part of the 20 answers game.<p>(Still, if the first N questions make it clear that it&#x27;s a number that was picked, the next 20 - N ones could try to binary search it).<p>Or let&#x27;s consider animals and insect: there are 20,000 types of beetles alone. But nobody will put an unknown &quot;beetle type X&quot; (say, &quot;Sitophilus granarius&quot;) as the item they think. They&#x27;ll either think of &quot;beetle&quot; in general, or at best some well known beetle type.<p>One insight is that if the other person doesn&#x27;t even know of the thing you have in mind, or is not fun guessing it with questions (like a specific huge number), then it makes no sense to pick it, as part of the implicit game rules is for others to have a chance and everybody to have some fun (as opposed to &quot;win at all costs&quot;).
tzsover 2 years ago
I wonder how people who start off with “is it bigger than a breadbox?” do if the item is in fact a breadbox? I would not be surprised if a lot of people take “no” to mean it is smaller than a breadbox overlooking that breadbox sized objects would also get a “no”.
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maximedbover 2 years ago
My PhD project is to work on language model capable of playing the answerer in a Twenty Questions game (reverse of Akinator). If you are interested you can play here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twentle.com" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twentle.com</a> It is meant as a party game to play on your mobile with the learderboard on a large screen (like Quiplash)<p>On the back-end is a GPT-3 model answering the questions with: never, rarely, sometimes, always or usually.
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shireboyover 2 years ago
We play this with our kids on car rides with some regularity. We usually limit scope to some book series- LOTR, Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc. Kids get really annoyed when I pick something super obscure like “a hair on Gandalf’s beard”. So I do. But they know it’s my strategy so can often guess anyway. If you know the owner skews towards obscure you can weight the binary search towards obscure.
martopixover 2 years ago
I literally read the whole post thinking it was by Scott Aaronson, until I found the signature &quot;Adam&quot; at the end.<p>The beginning <i>could</i> have been Scott Aaronson, and I expected it to continue with some incredibly deep insight on how anything in the universe cannot be described in a small number of bits, but anything <i>humans can think of</i> can, etc etc.<p>It didn&#x27;t quite go there but a fun read regardless.
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passion__desireover 2 years ago
Twenty Questions metaphor on understanding Quantum Mechanics by Phillip Ball<p>Quantum Mechanics Isn’t Weird, We’re Just Too Big by Phillip Ball<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;q1O11kP6x1k?t=2366" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;q1O11kP6x1k?t=2366</a><p>Short thesis : According to quantum mechanics, the universe doesn&#x27;t make up its mind till you ask it to.
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tdeckover 2 years ago
There&#x27;s an excellent story about an early mainframe version of this game called ANIMAL that copied itself into a new directory each time it was played:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.fourmilab.ch&#x2F;documents&#x2F;univac&#x2F;animal.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.fourmilab.ch&#x2F;documents&#x2F;univac&#x2F;animal.html</a>
rflrobover 2 years ago
One of the questions my friends and I have made mostly standard for tangible things is “can you buy it at Target”. Not all tangible things can be bought, and not all things that can ge bought are for sale at Target, but it’s a broad enough set that it’s proven to be reasonably effective. Plus, none of us own breadboxes.
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gaoryrtover 2 years ago
I and my exgirlfriend play this game back in those days. One time she chose &#x27;arrows on traffic sign&#x27; really got me frustrated. Sometimes she answers my question as an object in our physical world, and sometimes she answers me with its semantic meaning. Reminds me of Gödel&#x27;s incompleteness theorems.
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bloomingeekover 2 years ago
Kind of off topic: Many years ago, I was learning to be an electrician. Whenever I had a hard time picking up a concept on layouts or some components, an old timer would tell me &quot;You don&#x27;t know the right questions to ask.&quot; I&#x27;ve carried that simple and wise saying with me ever since.
aidenn0over 2 years ago
I would say yes to &quot;is it tangible&quot; for a dragon, but TFA implies that the author would say no. Thoughts?
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coopierezover 2 years ago
A friend of mine once told me he got stuck at the first &quot;is it tangible&quot; question with trying to answer whether or not &quot;Germany&quot; was tangible. Depends if you are referring to the landmass or the concept I suppose.
codefloover 2 years ago
I hate playing these kinds of games, at least with most people, because they simply can’t answer the questions correctly. It’s frustrating beyond belief. Just one example, I once narrowed it down to a fictional character, so I asked “Was it invented after 1980?” and got a “yes”. The answer, after many failures, was Alice in Wonderland. I’m sure it’s my brain that just works differently here, but I can’t for the life of me figure out why people would choose subjects they don’t know the most basic facts about.
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triyambakamover 2 years ago
My aunt was known for thinking of something tricky. Once she chose &quot;the paint on the walls&quot;. We were well past 20 questions by the time we got it.
Kiroover 2 years ago
&quot;Is it alive?&quot; is a classic trap because it may create a broken state if it&#x27;s a person that is dead. You will never know how someone will respond to &quot;yes, but no&quot; facts, and since it&#x27;s such an important question you may end up in the wrong half if there&#x27;s a mismatch between your interpretations.<p>Probably the question that leads to most &quot;but you said!&quot; situations.
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hibbeligover 2 years ago
In German, the game is called “Ich sehe was, was du nicht siehst”, literal translation “I am seeing something that you are not seeing”, and I feel this addresses two issues the author has:<p>Being able to see something narrows down the universe of things quite considerably. This is about the tangible&#x2F;intangible difference.<p>The number of questions is not limited.
alexmolasover 2 years ago
&gt; Even though we can conceive of infinitely many things, any particular thing will be guessable in a finite number of questions.<p>I don&#x27;t think that&#x27;s true. If you choose a random number between 0 and 1 you&#x27;ll need an infinite number of questions to guess the number.
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leosarevover 2 years ago
We are typically playing that game in domain of &quot;characters in child animation&#x2F;films&#x2F;books&quot;. So my first typical questions are &quot;Is it a boy or a girl?&quot; and &quot;Is he&#x2F;she a prince&#x2F;princess?&quot;
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shusakuover 2 years ago
I think an AI that plays twenty questions would be interesting…
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renewiltordover 2 years ago
You can chain unrelated predicates through disjunction to create more specificity.<p>e.g. Is it ((a thing you can hold) \&#x2F; (a mathematical construct you can&#x27;t hold))?
IIAOPSWover 2 years ago
I can&#x27;t believe its not <i>that</i> Aaronson.
keithnzover 2 years ago
idle thought, given 20 questions you can ask any questions that can be answered with a yes or no, what would the smallest number of questions to guess a number between 1 and a million?
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