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Writing by hand is still the best way to retain information

694 pointsby TangerineDreamover 2 years ago

97 comments

headbeeover 2 years ago
I can attest to this and took all of my notes on paper in college. However, once I started a real job I realized that this strategy doesn't scale to all situations. In college, I needed to be able to recall all of the information I had ingested: it was low-write, high-read. In the workplace, there's much more information, but I'm unlikely to need most of it: it's high-write, low-read. I need to be able to reference the information, but not necessarily recall it. Taking paper notes became too much of a burden and I moved to a wiki of markdown notes.
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chefandyover 2 years ago
If you&#x27;re in charge of other people, it&#x27;s worth noting that some very common cognitive problems like ADHD, Dysgraphia, and Dyslexia negate these benefits in <i>some</i> affected people. The cognitive load of making legible marks can become high enough to become the focus, rather than the actual content. Pressuring someone already struggling with working memory to do things like this, is counterproductive, if not demoralizing. Work style advice is great, but make sure you listen if they say it doesn&#x27;t work for them rather than getting into the &quot;it worked for me so you must be doing it wrong&quot; mindset.
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vogtover 2 years ago
I&#x27;d be curious if anyone had good advice on how to improve your handwriting ability well into adulthood (I&#x27;m 35). My penmanship was so bad in grade school that I attended special education classes to improve it, but it still was and remains horrible. This is a source of insecurity for me and since I&#x27;ve always been glued to a keyboard it has been easy to handwave away as &quot;screw this, the world is all typing-based anyhow&quot;.<p>But I have seen evidence before that handwriting notes leads to improved retention, and seeing it here now, I&#x27;m wondering if there&#x27;s a framework or resource that can help me feel a little bit more confident in my ability to, you know...write words with pen and paper. It&#x27;s embarrassing even talking about it, honestly.
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moth-fuzzover 2 years ago
I&#x27;m going to challenge the question - if I&#x27;ve got something written down, why would I need to memorize it? Maybe in school where closed-notes tests are a thing, sure, but nowhere in the &#x27;real-world&#x27; tests one&#x27;s ability to memorize in the strict sense. I write things down for a reason and that reason is <i>not</i> just accessory to memorizing it. I put things on paper precisely so I <i>don&#x27;t</i> have to put them in my brain. To keep them in both places would be redundant.<p>On that note, I have ADHD, and very little &#x27;brain-RAM&#x27;, and really lack the ability to memorize things or recall what I&#x27;ve memorized. The only consistent way I&#x27;ve found to &#x27;memorize&#x27; things is to deep-learn them, to the point where I can infer all the answers from prior knowledge, and draw new conclusions from existing conclusions, pretty much all the way down. I can&#x27;t just brute-force-memorize the conclusions themselves. Every step inbetween has to make sense. It&#x27;s like memorizing the square series as individual numbers, 1, 4, 9, 16, etc. (something I cannot do) vs memorizing the formula x^2 and being able to calculate the resulting numbers when needed (something I can do).
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ekTHENover 2 years ago
I made the observation that hand-writing extremely helps me to solve problems (especially programming and math related). In some way it removes mental barriers &#x2F; distractions I have when using digital tools (how do i want to organise this? can i link something here?). I can just dump every thought on paper and work way more creatively. In most cases the notes are dumped in the bin afterwards (one couln&#x27;t uderstand them when reading them without context).<p>In meetings I also really enjoy to outline some points &#x2F; a little agenda for myself. This way i don&#x27;t forget to address &quot;my&quot; topics or can wait for a better moment.<p>In a way pen and paper are a tool for me to organize my thoughts in a more structured way. And it seems to be more socially accepted to take hand-written notes while talking to someone rather than typing away on a notebook.
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ianbutlerover 2 years ago
I wonder if we&#x27;ve done comparative work between paper writing and writing in something like Obsidian for not retaining the full work but effective downstream use?<p>What I mean:<p>When I write something I remember all of it, ironclad, written on my soul levels of remembrance. When I type something, I don&#x27;t get that, but I get something akin to a pointer. I don&#x27;t remember the content but I know it&#x27;s stored in Obsidian&#x2F;Docs and I can just go look it up.<p>What&#x27;s more effective for day to day life? I don&#x27;t know. I imagine people have a larger bandwidth for the latter, but is it better to keep all the details on hand, in buffer?<p>Who knows? But I&#x27;d like to see some work done on it to compare.
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noNothingover 2 years ago
FOr me, if I write it down I will remember it and do not need to refer to my notes. But if I don&#x27;t write it down I am likely to forget. So I did some testing and found that it isn&#x27;t only the act of writing that helps me, it is quickly looking at what I have written. I think, for me, writing in my own words, and then reinforcing by going over what I have written, is the secret to remembering things.<p>As far as handwriting versus keyboarding, I find them to be equal in my case.
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crazygringoover 2 years ago
I just want to add a gigantic caveat: NOT FOR EVERYBODY.<p>I know a lot of people who insist writing by hand helps them. But I also know it&#x27;s TERRIBLE for me personally.<p>The article claims:<p>&gt; <i>Writing by hand on paper creates a tactile, personalized experience... The complex experience of hand writing on paper contains a multitude of variable elements: the creativity of an individual’s written representation of language, the texture of the paper itself, the fine motor skills needed to translate thoughts into written language, the engagement of the physical senses... All of these complexities create a stronger memory of the information that is taken in during the note taking.</i><p>Well, no. For me, all of that is a bunch of irrelevant noise. I hate writing, it&#x27;s so much slower and more awkward than typing (for me), I&#x27;m constantly concerning myself with whether I can keep up, whether I should start the next word on the same line or next line, whether it&#x27;s clear enough for me to read later or if I should repeat the word, whether I need to slow down to be more legible but if that means I won&#x27;t be able to keep up, whether I need to click the pencil again...<p>Writing requires me to use a significant amount of my brain for it, and this is <i>taking away</i> from my actual concentration on the content I&#x27;m trying to learn. It&#x27;s not creating &quot;stronger memories&quot; for me, it&#x27;s creating <i>irrelevant distraction</i>. (Whereas typing for me is effortless muscle memory that takes almost zero effort, so I can direct most of my concentration to the material itself.)<p>Again, I don&#x27;t question that it helps some people. But presenting it as universal is just flat-out <i>wrong</i>.
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david422over 2 years ago
I&#x27;m gonna take a guess here - writing by hand is slow enough that your brain has to summarize what is being verbally spoken in order to capture it all. In order to summarize accurately, you need to have some understanding of what is being said, being able to pick out the key points.<p>I write down all my notes - in fact, got a reMarkable to replace all my paper notebooks - but seems to be the best way for me to retain information. Even though I tend not to reference my notes later.
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WalterBrightover 2 years ago
Yup. The way to attend a lecture is to leave your laptop behind. Take a cheap spiral notebook and a couple colored pens.<p>Take notes.<p>Once the notebook is filled (or the semester is over) scan the pages, toss the notebook, and buy a fresh one for the next semester.<p>It works, from much personal experience You&#x27;re welcome!<p>1. yes, sometimes I fall behind the lecturer taking notes, which can be a bit frustrating<p>2. while the notes may not be complete, they trigger the context of the lecture which works<p>3. reading my notes from 40 years ago - they don&#x27;t make much sense, as the context is forgotten<p>4. I wish I had made audio recordings of the lectures. But that was impractical, as I could not afford the cassette tapes required
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keiferskiover 2 years ago
This reminds me of the Steve Jobs comment [1] about condors and bicycles:<p><i>“I read a study that measured the efficiency of locomotion for various species on the planet. The condor used the least energy to move a kilometer. And, humans came in with a rather unimpressive showing, about a third of the way down the list. It was not too proud a showing for the crown of creation. So, that didn’t look so good. But, then somebody at Scientific American had the insight to test the efficiency of locomotion for a man on a bicycle. And, a man on a bicycle, a human on a bicycle, blew the condor away, completely off the top of the charts. And that’s what a computer is to me. What a computer is to me is it’s the most remarkable tool that we’ve ever come up with, and it’s the equivalent of a bicycle for our minds.”</i><p>I agree that writing by hand (the condor) is better than typing (the human), but the missing part is Spaced Repetition (the bicycle.) Typing information into a SRS system is almost certainly more effective at retaining information than handwriting alone is.<p>I suppose you could handwrite cards and use something like the Leitner system [2], but this is extremely inefficient compared to using Anki&#x2F;a software program. At the end of the day, if you seriously want to retain information, you should just use a SRS, full stop.<p>1. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=c__DV-Ul9AM" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=c__DV-Ul9AM</a><p>2. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Leitner_system" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Leitner_system</a>
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dougdonohoeover 2 years ago
I&#x27;m now 54 and I&#x27;ve had my way of doing things for quite a long time. For me, I write down, on paper, TODOs and other notes. It&#x27;s my primary means of recording information. I also have my own personal Confluence cloud instance, for which I pay like $12 a month, on which I record things I&#x27;ve learned which I know I&#x27;ll forget and which I&#x27;ll want to remember in the future.<p>For example, on my &quot;C and C++ page&quot;, I actually used my note regarding &quot;nm --demangle&quot; which I used to help figure out a linker issue in some C++ code that I have to build in my current job. I haven&#x27;t done much with C&#x2F;C++ in years, so this was helpful to trigger long forgotten skills.<p>I do find that writing on paper is important, and helpful to not lose certain tasks. It is also helpful when I&#x27;m learning, even if those notes never make it to more long term storage. I find comfort writing things down, especially TODOs, since they won&#x27;t be forgotten. It also helped me when I was learning Go, or Kubernetes.<p>The other thing I&#x27;ve learned in my career is that everyone is different. I&#x27;ve stopped trying to convince anyone that &#x27;my way&#x27; is better. It&#x27;s only worked for me, that much is certain. Can I learn new tricks as an old dog? Sure, for example, I recently learned to use &#x27;ripgrep&#x27; and it&#x27;s my new go-to tool.<p>Be open to new things, but also try and optimize what is best for you. Peace and happy thanksgiving for those that celebrate!
sspaetiover 2 years ago
I agree that for new content, the initial time handwriting makes sense, before adding it to your second brain. For me, Writing is therapy!<p>I usually write as much as possible on my laptop because I can type as fast as I think. At the same time, my handwriting can’t keep up with my thinking speed. There is no slowing down and forgetting ideas or thoughts. On the other hand, I can reformat, re-arrange, add, and delete, which will help my thinking process which wouldn’t happen in my brain. The advantage of pen and paper is that I use different muscles and brain activities when I write, which helps me think differently. I usually use them when I need to outline my blog post, if I’m stuck or distracted on something, or if I go out in nature and only bring my physical journal.<p>Also, when writing journals or other ideas within my second brain, I can start connecting them. Improving my thoughts over time and generally refine easily and reading them, whereas, on paper, notebooks get lost over time, and finding the right things when needed is very hard.
makeitdoubleover 2 years ago
I was hoping the cited studies weren’t about the same rehashed students taking notes ones…there was a most recent one [0], but guess what ? it’s about volunteer students from the University of Tokyo.<p>On one hand I believe some people will remember things better when using the media they’ve used for almost their entire life (to note: japanese school is more reliant on paper and writing than most western countries to my knowledge), so I totally understand the results.<p>On the other I’m surprised we see no actually serious, wildly targeted research that also touches on working people, like sales fleet who actually make a living following calendar appointments. With nothing coming out from outside of the “kids learning” setting, it kinda feels like the reality is way more complex than “hand writing is better”<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.sciencedaily.com&#x2F;releases&#x2F;2021&#x2F;03&#x2F;210319080820.htm" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.sciencedaily.com&#x2F;releases&#x2F;2021&#x2F;03&#x2F;210319080820.h...</a>
hyperturtleover 2 years ago
I find the lack of learning science and the state of teaching how to learning to be detrimental to our current society where people are required to know more and more. Knowledge that doctors, lawyers, even computer engineers keep increasing as time goes on, but the way we learn has never been scrutinized or emphasized and is mostly up to each person to deal with.
lowkenover 2 years ago
I skyrocketed up the ladder at my current company in about 18 months using the following technique.<p>I take crude sloppy notes on a topic or project. I listen for concepts it words I don’t understand. This includes the jargon in my field (FinTech).<p>For projects I take my sloppy notes and format them in a Google Docs that serves as a design&#x2F;QA testing document. I add technical notes and other details to this document.<p>If I come across concepts or terms that I don’t know and I determine are important I add these to an Anki deck. Then I review this Anki deck daily and commit this information to my long term memory.<p>I can’t describe how having critical information at my disposal has changed my life. I’ve gone from zero to one of the top individuals at my company in a few months and I credit this success to my little system.<p>As a side benefit Anki has an amazing search feature for times can’t recall something.
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itsmemattchungover 2 years ago
I recently interviewed[0] a professional writer who transitioned away from a purely digital workflow (e.g. &quot;getting things done&quot;, &quot;mind mapping&quot;) to one that incorporates good old paper and pen with flashcards: a hybrid approach. I myself tried (many times) to go either fully digital, or fully analog, only to find myself in the same position over and over again of combining the best of both worlds.<p>[0] - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;digitalorganizationdad.substack.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;the-tools-of-everyday-mastery" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;digitalorganizationdad.substack.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;the-tools-of-e...</a>
midjjiover 2 years ago
Mostly confusing the benefit which taking notes provides with the benefit paying the minimum attention taking notes requires. Though there is also the memory habit confounder, i.e. if you are used to needing to remember only the things you write down, you are less likely to remember it if you dont. Similarly, if you are used to not need to remember what you type, you wont. However, if you are able to pay attention regardless, and are used to needing to remember even if you aren&#x27;t taking notes, you will. These confounders are obvious and the article is completely oblivious to them.
ebjaas_2022over 2 years ago
I don&#x27;t agree with this article. I write hundreds of lines of notes each day, as a part of my coding and work routine. I do it all digitally, in Visual Studio Code, as pure text. I think, as long as you can write fluently on a keyboard, and as long as the writing and typing itself does not steal CPU cycles from your brain while you&#x27;re doing it, it works just as well as handwritten notes, and, I would wager, probably even better, as you&#x27;re able to write quite a bit faster on a keyboard than you are when you&#x27;re writing with a pen.<p>As for the &quot;slowness&quot; of the writing being a point in itself, I don&#x27;t think that&#x27;s true. I achieve the same by editing my text as I write it, pondering over my wording, to make sure that I communicate (to myself, mind you) the precise intent that I&#x27;m going for.<p>I think the fondness for handwriting is mostly based on romantic notions, for lack of better words, predicated by our closeness in time to a period where handwriting was much more common. We think of it as the &quot;original&quot; way of writing, and the most &quot;pure&quot; way of writing. Personally I think jotting down text notes on a keyboard is just as &quot;pure&quot;, and I don&#x27;t really think that there are any extra qualities associated with handwriting, as far as learning and retaining information goes.
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orduover 2 years ago
It is a very suspicious article. It is a psychology trying to provide justification for a myth that most people believe in any case, and there are no clever experiments to find what factor is at play. Is it tactile response at play or the limits of speed of handwriting?<p>Such reasoning is a subject to all kinds of biases and heuristics, and they are known to support folk myths instead of establishing the truth.<p>I personally believe that a laptop allow me to stick in a local minima of note taking: to write down every word while my mind wanders elsewhere it likes. It is all about my attention and concentration on what I&#x27;m trying to digest. My opinion is based on a sample size of 1 and my &quot;sample&quot; think all these thoughts and can purposely provide data that justifies my ideas, so I&#x27;d advise you to doubt them, but the point is they work for me. While I manage to immerse myself in the information processing it doesn&#x27;t matter if I&#x27;m writing, typing, picking my nose of whatever else I&#x27;m doing at the time with my hands so they do not distract me from the information processing.
renewiltordover 2 years ago
I know the research says this but I did this for a whole grad school semester class and remembered the least. When I try to remember a concept, I recall the place (sometimes down to the rough seating location in class) and the whole thing comes instantly flooding back to me.<p>Since my memory is nothing close to eidetic - I forget my keys, my car&#x27;s parked location, all that stuff - I decided that note-taking would help supercharge me, but it debilitated me. I think it&#x27;s because note-taking is its own skill and without being skilled at it, it took too much of my conscious thought pattern to:<p>- do the mechanical task of pen to paper<p>- edit to salient parts to select what goes down<p>So, I think a lot of the &quot;writing is the best way&quot; stuff comes from people who are akin to my &quot;vim bindings are the best way&quot;. People who didn&#x27;t grow up with vim bindings will find them unreasonable to learn - but I am much faster when I use them everywhere.<p>So I lean into my method: what I repeat I remember. I had a period where I needed to get a duplicate car title and insurance and everything. I can now write down my VIN by heart.
UlisesAC4over 2 years ago
Something that also helped me was reading aloud. The level of concentration required to do it is similar to hand writing.
cratermoonover 2 years ago
Not sure how the article can state it so conclusively. See e.g How Much Mightier Is the Pen than the Keyboard for Note-Taking? A Replication and Extension of Mueller and Oppenheimer (2014) [1] and Don’t Ditch the Laptop Just Yet: a Direct Replication of Mueller and Oppenheimer’s (2014) Study 1 Plus Mini Meta-Analyses Across Similar Studies [2]<p>1 <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;link.springer.com&#x2F;article&#x2F;10.1007&#x2F;s10648-019-09468-2" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;link.springer.com&#x2F;article&#x2F;10.1007&#x2F;s10648-019-09468-2</a><p>2 <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;journals.sagepub.com&#x2F;doi&#x2F;10.1177&#x2F;0956797620965541" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;journals.sagepub.com&#x2F;doi&#x2F;10.1177&#x2F;0956797620965541</a><p>There&#x27;s quite a bit of variance, and the early results may have been biased by the fact that have a laptop and typing while taking notes were relatively new things.
Dowwieover 2 years ago
I know absolutely nothing about neuroscience. When I read a claim about handwriting notes having more brain activity than typing notes, it seems like additional.. overhead (pun).. to accomplish the same task: memorization. Less brain activity to accomplish the same task of memorization would imply efficiency, wouldn&#x27;t it?
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ramraj07over 2 years ago
One thing I can agree with OP, Weinberg and what’s-his-name’s Hallmarks of Cancer series of papers are emblematic of everything that’s wrong with biology research and why we haven’t made much actionable progress in recent decades in biology: these reviews invented out of thin air dogmatic rules about cancer as if what they know about it is what’s important (in their first review, the immune system is not even mentioned) and the entire field embraces it as the Bible or something. Then when they update it, they pat themselves in the back acting as if it’s all progress now that they have a better model! By the time the second review came out it became damn clear that the role of the immune system in cancer is probably one of the most important aspects we should focus on, but they didn’t want to look like idiots so they still underplayed it’s importance.
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PartiallyTypedover 2 years ago
I found that I retain the most information when I write in LaTeX over md, txt, word, hand.<p>While the arguments of the article sound convincing enough, I found that the effort one spends on the notes is far more important than the medium.<p>In LaTeX my mode of operation shifts from informal and short to very academic as I transform the notes into documents.
justinram11over 2 years ago
I&#x27;ve always found that it&#x27;s the act of actually &quot;processing&quot; the information that helps with my retention and understanding.<p>Most of my notes (especially in college) are short sentences &#x2F; random words with arrow to other rows (with most of my notes being incomprehensible to even myself after some time).
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Pmopover 2 years ago
The best way to retain information is by burning it into your brain with spaced repetition and Anki to help.
kenjacksonover 2 years ago
I personally find taking notes at all distracts me from retaining information during a meeting or lecture. The notes are useful for reviewing afterwards, but my best strategy is to just be fully focused in the meeting&#x2F;lecture, and have someone else take notes that I can review later.
tenebrisalietumover 2 years ago
&gt; I have some vague typed notes, but I can’t recall the technical details I need to finish my work. No one is available to answer my question. It’s then that it hits me: I should have written down notes by hand during the meeting.<p>I&#x27;ve been done with handwriting ever since laptops became common. I can type much faster than I can write and also much more legibly for a given speed.<p>Of course, this is on a laptop with something resembling a real keyboard. I can see how handwritten notes are better than typing on a smartphone. Of course this is fixed with a Bluetooth keyboard, a good full-size one like an Apple one or Logitech.<p>Is it ridiculous to be typing on a big keyboard to smartphone that&#x27;s probably about half the size of the keyboard? Sure, but no one has ever not wanted me to do this in a meeting.
mensetmanusmanover 2 years ago
My experience is that mind mapping on an iPad is the best way to retain information, because there is a spatial component that doesn’t exist in any other documentation format (and it is searchable; you can also use handwriting in the mind map).<p>My brain takes advantage of the spatial component for sure.
gjulianmover 2 years ago
The problem with this view is that it only looks at &quot;writing&quot; when processing information. What about search, classification, reorganization, sharing? I have a OneNote notebook with some notes for important meetings: I don&#x27;t know how would I search for certain things if I only had a paper notebook. In university I took notes in LaTeX and spend significant time rewriting as I studied and understood things better: again, it&#x27;d be a giant mess doing that in writing.<p>Also, you need to have good handwriting. Some people don&#x27;t. In my case, my handwriting goes from bad to worse the more time I spend writing, to the point it becomes unintelligible. Seems more productive to invest the time it&#x27;d take me to improve that in other aspects of note-taking.
yamrzouover 2 years ago
Does it apply equally to E Ink writing tablets, or is there something special about writing on paper?
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adameasterlingover 2 years ago
I 100% agree with this. If I want to fully commit to learning something, physically writing it down with my hand makes it stick better, for reasons that I don&#x27;t really understand.<p>I actually started to think about it as a kind of cheat code. Like, how, in a video game you can type in a cheat code and you get special powers. That&#x27;s how big of a difference it made for me.<p>My strategy looks like this:<p>* If there&#x27;s a good book, buy the book. Like when I wanted to learn C, I picked up K&amp;R&#x27;s C. A physical copy isn&#x27;t required and can even get in the way, but can be useful if the Kindle version looks bad. If there isn&#x27;t a good book, open up the official documentation on a web browser. Third-party tutorials tend to suck, IMO; official documentation is much better.<p>* Sit down at a desk with my laptop, book, and my notebook. Start at the beginning of the book&#x2F;documentation. Read every line. If there&#x27;s a word that doesn&#x27;t make sense, look up the word. Talk to myself, out loud: Summarize and re-phrase what I&#x27;m reading.<p>* Write down a summary of the large important details of what I&#x27;m reading, in snippets of prose, on paper with a pen. It&#x27;s important to not use the same words that the author(s) used. And of course, be much pithier than the author. As Kevin from the office taught us, why use lot word when small word do trick?<p>* The act of summarizing and re-phrasing, first verbally and then manually, seems to really do the trick in terms of making my brain remember things.<p>* If there&#x27;s anything that can be tested with code, test it. If you&#x27;re learning C or Lua or whatever, you obviously want to set up a little environment and test everything you&#x27;re reading. This is harder for something like system design, though.<p>* Repeat every day until the book or documentation is consumed, or I feel I&#x27;ve had enough to accomplish whatever goals I had. Repetition every day seems to be important.<p>* Talk to other people about what I&#x27;m learning. One time I even reached out to the author of the book: I thought I found a mistake in his book; I was wrong! But talking with co-workers, or even salespeople if learning something like Snowflake can be helpful, or my partner. Anyone who will listen.<p>I will admit to not using the notebook strategy in recent years. I&#x27;ll use a Google doc or sheet instead. But I think the notebook strategy is better! Especially when I was starting out, and the concepts of programming were new and strange.
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g9yuayonover 2 years ago
I also find that writing by hand led to better retention and understanding when I learned a new language, compared to writing with a keyboard. My guess is that it&#x27;s because handwriting is slower, which somehow creates a better focus window.
komali2over 2 years ago
I would like to take better notes when reading books. Considering getting a kobo with stylus system, but most my books epubs, not sure compatibility, would appreciate advice. I also have a samsung z fold 3, and I find the pdf markup in samsung notes app to actually be really good, but I&#x27;m not sure I wanna convert my books to PDF just for markup reasons. Yet to find good android app for marking up epub, after briefly looking into epub and based on my basic understanding of ebook formats, I believe it&#x27;s kinda simply a too hard technical problem to build an app around.
prplover 2 years ago
I can type fast but, because I majored in Physics in college (with lots of Math) - everything was by hand. It was highly impractical to take notes with a laptop (I don’t know anybody who did it).<p>With ADHD as well, I’d rewrite what I was reading sometimes to make sure I was absorbing it (Did this for much of my Math Analysis classes especially)<p>I lost it at some point. I’ve been wanting to get back to writing more, maybe with the Remarkable or something. My writing was always terrible but it’s been especially terrible not exercising regularly.<p>I have one giant markdown file I use for my notes today, which is more convenient than a notebook overall.
xrdover 2 years ago
Does it need to be stated that moving all interactions to Zoom means that writing by hand gets much more difficult?<p>Why? Maintaining eye contact and connection is so much harder when there isn&#x27;t a shared physical space. If you take notes by hand, you are disconnecting from what little shared connection you have in a small video box on screen.<p>You could take notes using the keyboard but the keyboard is right next to the microphone. Though we have technology to reduce the noise it&#x27;s going to impact your concentration and focus in the meeting at the very least and everyone else&#x27;s concentration at the very worst.
ericmcerover 2 years ago
I heard someone describe the process of writing notes as conditioning his mind for the problem space. The first thing he does with any new subject is write down pages of messy notes with no intention of consulting them again. They are just an expendable resource to help get the info into his mind.<p>I found it really refreshing to approach notes as totally expendable one time things to help memory. In school we were taught to treat them as a well organized, legible reference log and I was terrible at taking them. I wish I had just slammed down everything of relevance with no concern for organizing the info.
jribover 2 years ago
Writing by hand also lets me &#x2F;think&#x2F; better.<p>I don&#x27;t have to change tools to draw a shape or change the layout. I have a thought, and my hand creates some visual representation of that thought. There&#x27;s no middle step.
annyeonghadaover 2 years ago
I wish it were for me. I love handwriting and I&#x27;ve spent lots of effort to make it look neat and I really like how it looks, but I convince myself that I understand and comprehend everything while I write but if I try to solve a problem or explain to myself what was going on it&#x27;s a blank. I&#x27;ve found repetition, spaced or not, much more useful both for understanding and retaining information, nowadays I handwrite only if a passage is written in a confusing way or if I need to add more information to the textbook.
ouidover 2 years ago
The proportion of the population that is actually good at retaining information is too small to sample, but I&#x27;d bet that they don&#x27;t take notes on average.<p>Retaining information shouldnt have anything to do with how you ingest it. You need to have a place to put it. This means working with that information. Relating it to other pieces of information, imagining examples in real time, or, more formally, writing the shortest program you can that outputs the thing (modulo the constraint that you write it out of other programs stored in your head).
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wkjagtover 2 years ago
For me writing by hand helps for remembering a very specific type of knowledge. If I need to remember random facts with not much cohesion between them, it helps to write them down. I feel I create a visual memory of these facts. Almost like &quot;oh yes, I remember writing that down near the left bottom of the page&quot;. But for any type of knowledge that&#x27;s more about understanding than pure remembering, I learn better without writing by hand.
Overtonwindowover 2 years ago
I used to be overflowing in paper, but last year I started using an iPad with a pencil exclusively, and it’s been quite amazing for both my retention of records, and my ability to organize information. I would write things down on paper, rather than just opening a word document, and typing it out, because I would lose the word documents in the mess of word documents. Same thing with the paper. With the iPad, and Note Shelf, I can keep this stuff much more organized and retain it better.
qntmfredover 2 years ago
I wonder if when writing started to become the preferred method of transmitting information between humans, some people suggested that the methods of oral tradition were superior.
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munk-aover 2 years ago
<i>For some people</i> - people learn and remember in different ways and writing by hand (if physically difficult, say you have an essential tremor (points at self)) can require enough focus that it actually makes it difficult to retain information instead being overly focused. Different folks have different learning and retention habits and while these sorts of articles are helpful in learning methods that are commonly useful they shouldn&#x27;t be taken as gospel.
damontalover 2 years ago
I tried learning shorthand after reading Samuel Pepys’ diary.<p>If you’re good at it you can write as fast as someone speaks but I never got good enough at it for it to be useful.
kcindricover 2 years ago
I&#x27;m looking into buying a iPad with a pencil for better organizing my work and personal notes with added searchability. The only thing I&#x27;m afraid off, as I have ADHD and as a result trouble learning&#x2F;retaining information, is that the iPad + pencil won&#x27;t have the same effect as pen and paper. Anyone made the switch from paper to iPad and can&#x27;t share their experience?
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nonimaover 2 years ago
I could never take notes in school or in college. I tried many times but I just forget about them and never check them anyway, and if I do they are pretty useless because my understanding of whatever I&#x27;m learning changes pretty quickly so if I look at my notes 2 days later they won&#x27;t make any sense to me.
eterevskyover 2 years ago
From my understanding, the main advantage of writing by hand in terms of memorization&#x2F;understanding comes from the fact that writing just takes more time. I am not aware of any research that would show that writing is more effective than engaging with text for the same amount of time in a different way, like typing it and then re-reading.
bayesian_horseover 2 years ago
There seems to be zero proof to that.<p>Too long ago that I can up with actual citations I read about studies that said a better way to &quot;retain&quot; information, in the context of college reading material, is recitation. With recitation they meant verbally explaining the content from memory.<p>One of the problems with most such studies is that they don&#x27;t compare techniques with each other.
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rmbyrroover 2 years ago
&gt; on paper showed more brain activity than subjects who recorded the same information onto a smartphone<p>This just shows that smartphones require less effort, not that paper is better, necessarily.<p>Then they say people were 25% faster to recall information later when they used paper, instead of smartphone. But is it like a 4 to 5 seconds increase? I bet so and it&#x27;s irrelevant.
jononomoover 2 years ago
I have tried at times to take notes by hand during lectures, but I write too slowly to keep up with everything I want to write down. So this leads to bad hand-writing and unfinished statements, etc. If I could press &quot;pause&quot; on a live lecture then I would be more inclined to take notes by hand.
PetitSasquatchover 2 years ago
There is a big difference between note-taking and critical analysis by hand.<p>I use pen and paper for organising thought and critically engaging with text I&#x27;m reading.<p>Unequivocally, it is a far superior method for me than typing, in the early phase of digesting new &#x2F; difficult information.<p>Once the initial cognitive hurdle has passed, typing in long form is also helpful for recall.
uptownfunkover 2 years ago
There’s something about writing that makes it very personal. I’ve noticed when I make information personal I retain it better.
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picardoover 2 years ago
I think it&#x27;s more helpful for certain tasks, such as learning a new language, than others, such as creating a complex document. I&#x27;ve been using handwritten notes to improve my Korean recently, and I&#x27;ve noticed that I can recall the words and characters much more accurately and for much longer after writing them by hand.
aizyuvalover 2 years ago
It lacks to mention the simpleness of rewriting using digital means.<p>When I’m able to rewrite a paragraph a 1000 times compared to much less while writing, the repetition leads to retaining information, among other things like text sharpness etc.<p>The article does show that for simple, day to day and short notes, it’s beneficial to use a journal.
silveiraover 2 years ago
Starting a daily journal&#x2F;planner for my work&#x2F;personal stuff was one of the best things I&#x27;ve done. I always sketched in lose notebooks, papers, postits but moving to a dedicated and specialized book was a game changer. I started with a Hobonichi Techo Planner and it is just amazing. It&#x27;s a piece of technology.
sky_fanover 2 years ago
I like to take notes with Pen and Paper during meetings, this gives me high recall. I keep scribbling even during zoom video meetings, it helps me to stay focused and not lose my train of thought if I have to refer back to it later. I have tried Apple Pencil with Ipad, but personally prefer pen and paper.
begueradjover 2 years ago
It&#x27;s funny that few scrolls below this post, I found this entry: Socrates on the Forgetfulness that Comes with Writing (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=33724759" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=33724759</a>)
maCDzPover 2 years ago
I prefer writing by hand. Right now I am studying STAT110 - a free Harvard course - and I am copying the the course book by hand.<p>I have noticed that by the time I get to exercises I have written so many examples that I am better position to solve them.<p>I know it’s nuts. It takes an awful lot of time, but hey, it works.
jackphilsonover 2 years ago
I don&#x27;t think the purpose of notes is to retain information. It is to more quickly re-obtain information that has already been obtained. Handwriting is considerably slower than typing for this purpose. To retain information, use spaced repetition and active recall instead.
markus_zhangover 2 years ago
Writing by hand is still the best way to take notes. I think Apple pencil is coming close but still not there.<p>Just think, you probably want: - Switch between drawing amd writing in a split of second;<p>- Have a large enough space amd can write in very small font;<p>- Can move it around not caring whether part of elbow blocks something
oxffover 2 years ago
I have an atomic note like ``Paxos`` and when I re-read or add to it, I usually refactor it to resemble my improved understanding.<p>This is a colossal waste of time if you do it by hand, but it is something that really helps me, and is enabled by taking notes on a keyboard + Obsidian.
jlengrandover 2 years ago
I wrote about why I still do it not so long ago, interesting to see it in the SO blog : <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lengrand.fr&#x2F;why-i-still-take-notes-on-paper&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lengrand.fr&#x2F;why-i-still-take-notes-on-paper&#x2F;</a>
loliveover 2 years ago
As a Obsidian user, the shortcomings of « analogic » notes is now clear: very difficult to refactor, very difficult to link, very difficult to search, very difficult to share, slow to author (simply deleting « analogic » some text takes forever).
xbmcuserover 2 years ago
Writing by hand is how you have been taught to retain information when young so that what your brain is trained for it. This has nothing to do with writing rather something to do with how your brain had been trained to retain information.
anotheryouover 2 years ago
Why optimize for retention if that&#x27;s the exact burden notes can take off you?<p>Optimize for things like understanding, structuring, throughput, tool assisted recall, efficiency...<p>I embrace &quot;prosthetic knowledge&quot; and think it does me a lot of good.
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zingarover 2 years ago
I used to be unable to focus in meetings, and I was dissatisfied with my notes being write only. Now I have the best of both worlds with iPad+pencil, and the diagrams I can sketch and modify or share later are excellent.
alexk307over 2 years ago
Worked for me. Once I realized I could learn anything by just reading the assigned textbook and taking long form handwritten notes, studying became an efficient exercise that I didn’t mind doing.
erdanielsover 2 years ago
I also believe that writing is better than typing for information. What&#x27;s more though is that I think AI coding solutions could worsen our retention of information when it comes to coding.
deafpolygonover 2 years ago
I am deaf and grew up with sign language. I find that typing on the keyboard is better for me. I remember better when I type. Writing takes too long and takes me out of the flow of thinking.
madiatorover 2 years ago
The other reason I have heard is that since it&#x27;s slower to write by hand you are forced to summarize it, which means you need to understand. You can&#x27;t mindlessly type anymore.
iLoveOncallover 2 years ago
The real question is why would you want to retain information in your brain when you&#x27;re already writing down that information?<p>I take notes so that I DON&#x27;T have to remember.
chitowneatsover 2 years ago
Even if this is true (which for some reason I doubt, probably bias), my handwriting is so atrocious and inefficient I doubt I would ever act on this knowledge.
quickthrower2over 2 years ago
Typing scales to the speed of the conversation. While my wpm is say only about 60 perhaps, I can get enough down in meetings for that to be useful.
blindseerover 2 years ago
I just want an eink tablet that lets me search my handwriting using grep. It&#x27;s almost 2023, why doesn&#x27;t something like this exist!?!
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HeavyStormover 2 years ago
fuck that, I always hated to write by hand... Humans didn&#x27;t write a mere 5 thousand years ago. Most humans didn&#x27;t less than what, two hundred? Why would writing by and be the best way to retain information? Is it magical?
sandGorgonover 2 years ago
this is true. and here&#x27;s my sexy pen hack - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.lambdacurry.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2017-05-10-cheaper-better-waterman-refill-signo&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.lambdacurry.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2017-05-10-cheaper-better-w...</a><p>i use a waterman rollerball and use a signo 307 refill. which is probably as good as an ink pen.<p>Added benefit being the signo 307 is a fraud-proof ink.
999900000999over 2 years ago
Never.<p>I had a horrible manager who just wrote a list of vague complaints in his crap hand writing.<p>Later on he just took a picture of his notes, I swear the worst hand writing I&#x27;ve ever seen, and emailed it to me.<p>As a bonus this company expected employees to work multiple nights, and even though some of the directors did, my manager never did so.<p>Now change the title to personal information, like for example when you need to get your tire changed, and maybe I&#x27;ll understand. But as far as at work, when you may need to share that information later, I have to disagree.
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langsoul-comover 2 years ago
I believe the reason why handwriting is better is due to utilising more senses. Ie touch, etc, etc.<p>I wonder if you could make typing the same?
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BulgarianIdiotover 2 years ago
I do draw and write things by hand, but typing is absolutely faster, and ESPECIALLY because you can seamlessly edit.<p>And you know, printers exist.
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pasttense01over 2 years ago
Some of us can&#x27;t read our own handwriting.
graphenusover 2 years ago
It looks like folks haven&#x27;t studied in a modern environment or haven&#x27;t used all the tools available to them.<p>During classes you take notes using a keyboard. The you and your colleagues merge everything into a single set of notes. E.g., in a private wiki. That makes you review your notes at least once, and in the end you will end up with mega notes written in the language common to students of the year that you wouldn&#x27;t be able to creat on your own. Beat that.
jdthediscipleover 2 years ago
Is it just me or do dribble and enjin seem to yield positive results for (almost) any name, however returning broken links?
chaostheoryover 2 years ago
You can have both hand written notes and something digital that’s saved in the cloud. Just get a rocket book
badrabbitover 2 years ago
No joke, I took my passion in computing seriously because of my hatred towards writing by hand!
meltynessover 2 years ago
I seem to get more benefit from constructing and populating directory hierarchies.
swayvilover 2 years ago
for notes I use a spiral-bound 9x12 artist&#x27;s sketch pad. And Google keep.<p>One is good for drawing. The other for text (and searchableness etc).<p>I think one of those reMarkable pads with voice-text might be the optimal blend. Never drew on one tho.
Ikatzaover 2 years ago
I wonder if handwriting on a tablet has the same effect as doing it on paper.
Waterluvianover 2 years ago
I envy all the people who don’t find writing by hand intolerably excruciating.
dborehamover 2 years ago
Until you lose track of the paper...
makachover 2 years ago
flamebait!?<p>Best way to retain information is spaced repetition. How you do it is up to you. Lots of love.
barbazooover 2 years ago
... in mice &#x2F;s
seydorover 2 years ago
maybe typing _slowly_ works the same way ?
rinaaaover 2 years ago
hello
elevationover 2 years ago
Handwriting may be a good way to reinforce what you&#x27;ve already learned. But it can also act as a crutch which disengages your brain before you&#x27;ve processed new information more deeply.<p>I have a coworker who hand writes nearly all technical information spoken in meetings and 1 on 1 conversations, and yet remains incredibly ineffective at recall.<p>The problem is she lacks a mental model of the topic, so she has no structure around which to organize incoming facts. Being unable to assess the relative importance of a new fact, she dutifully transcribes everything she hears -- but never becomes able to summarize or reason about it. This also means that she&#x27;s unable to correct herself when she&#x27;s mistranscribed something, such as substituting Gigabytes with Gigahertz. Little of what she writes is worth retaining.<p>If you&#x27;re unclear about what&#x27;s being discussed, it can be so much more effective to put the pencil down and ask a few questions.
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