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EFF Takes a Stance: San Francisco Shouldn’t Arm Robots

70 pointsby glitcherover 2 years ago

11 comments

PaulHouleover 2 years ago
I think of the tough issues that police departments face that divide communities.<p>In my area we unelected the sheriff after a botched raid at the house of a middle-aged white man who had a history of incarceration, who was expected to return to prison for a relatively minor offense, but told people &quot;I&#x27;d rather die than go back to jail&quot;.<p>He did not show up when he was supposed to show up. Police went to his house to arrest him. He was holed up in his house for more than 48 hours, the SWAT team showed up, they punched holes in the walls so that they could observe him through. Eventually the man shot himself. This man was armed but not immediately dangerous except to himself and to the police. Situations like this result in a lot of recrimination. I am a real fan of this guy<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Hostage-Cop-Captain-Frank-Bolz&#x2F;dp&#x2F;0892561025" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Hostage-Cop-Captain-Frank-Bolz&#x2F;dp&#x2F;089...</a><p>who managed to resolve a number of difficult situations just by talking, but tragedies like this are happening and often seem to end badly no matter what they do. I don&#x27;t know what the answer is, but they are looking for one.
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robbywashere_over 2 years ago
This will make headshots more precise with machine learning and computer vision. I personally do not like the prospects of judicial killing when “a threat to civilian and officer lives” has been hand waved away again and again.
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user3939382over 2 years ago
EFF&#x27;s brand and marketing portrays a wholesome organization fighting for the people. That is sometimes the case, but notice the positions they take either benefit or don&#x27;t affect telecoms, whose interests they surreptitiously exist to advocate. It took me many years to realize this. You may disagree with me which is fine, but keep this in mind over time as you observe their positions and see for yourself.
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josephcsibleover 2 years ago
What does this have to do with the EFF? They&#x27;re straying from their original purpose again.<p>And why is everyone pretending that these are autonomous killer robots, when they actually need to be remotely controlled by human police officers? How is using a gun that a robot is holding any worse than using a gun that you&#x27;re holding directly?
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robbywashere_over 2 years ago
I think the term “robot” is being used incorrectly here. Police are using military grade killing machines, not robots.
1970-01-01over 2 years ago
<p><pre><code> Robots will only be used as a deadly force option when [1] risk of loss of life to members of the public or officers is imminent and [2] officers cannot subdue the threat after using alternative force options or de-escalation tactics options, **or** conclude that they will not be able to subdue the threat after evaluating alternative force options or de-escalation tactics. Do not give SFPD permission to kill people with robots. There are many alternatives available to police, even in extreme circumstances. Police equipment has a documented history of misuse and mission creep. While the proposed policy would authorize police to use armed robots as deadly force only when the risk of death is imminent, this legal standard has often been under-enforced by courts and criticized by activists. For the sake of your constituents&#x27; rights and safety, please vote no. </code></pre> Other than the reputation for police to abuse tech, it&#x27;s not clear how killer robots will create a new problem. EFF even states how enforcement of legal standards is the problem, not police equipment.
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whartungover 2 years ago
I think the word &quot;robot&quot; is really overloaded in this case.<p>They&#x27;re machines, but beyond that they&#x27;re basically sophisticated remote control cars. Outside of perhaps autonomous drone avionic controls, and maybe software and systems that allow some of the machines to climb stairs, they&#x27;re basically stupid sensor platforms.<p>The military has been using &quot;robots&quot; in combat for 50 years. Any guided missile can be considered a robot, though I&#x27;d argue that those with seeker heads vs the crude mechanics of the V2 are more &quot;robot&quot; than not as they have built in &quot;decision making&quot; capability.<p>The Navy&#x27;s &quot;Phalanx&quot; CWIS is, indeed, a very sophisticated robot. It can be turned on, weapons free, to follow through with its &quot;if it flies, it dies&quot; motto. As far as I know, it&#x27;s never actually been deployed that way. It&#x27;s always been used with a man in the middle with their finger on the button. But, left to it own devices, it will happily (can robots be happy?) sweep the nearby sky of anything that flies. This includes things like friendly helicopters, which is one of the reasons its kept on a short leash.<p>There have certainly been tragic mistakes, notably Iran Air Flight 655. A dot on a screen taken out by an autonomous tracking system released by a human hand.<p>What the police are talking about is none of these.<p>It&#x27;s an RC car, with a camera. It&#x27;s as much a robot as a sharpshooter using a night vision site. It&#x27;s not an ED-209, by any stretch. It&#x27;s not even a step toward an ED-209, save for one thing.<p>That word &quot;robot&quot; again. Robot is too broad. I&#x27;d prefer something more specific, &quot;manually remote controlled platform&quot; or something. I don&#x27;t want the the slippery slope of what is now a fancy RC car sliding down into an ED-209. &quot;It&#x27;s just a robot, and the legislation says robots are ok!&quot;.<p>And I appreciate the distinction between military and police matters. A remote detonated land mine should fall under this policy, something the military uses all the time. But it&#x27;s hardly a &quot;robot&quot;.<p>Because what we&#x27;re talking about is remote controlled lethal force, especially problematic if the authorities don&#x27;t have clear line of site.<p>What you really want to avoid is sending in some machine, that has limited scope of the environment, giving the human operators a limited view of the situation. Hard to safely deploy lethal force if they can&#x27;t see everything in the room.<p>As long as the machine is under complete human control (outside of things like drones that use software to maintain stability and such), I don&#x27;t have a problem with these.<p>We also don&#x27;t want a repeat of Philadelphia 1985, which is honestly about as close as we have to a Worst Case Scenario of how these might be deployed.
GartzenDeHaesover 2 years ago
If anyone is curious about the kind of robot they&#x27;re talking about, here&#x27;s a USAF infomercial about them: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=DIte7K1GswU" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=DIte7K1GswU</a>
incomingpainover 2 years ago
You can never hold the robot accountable. It&#x27;s in direct violation of asimov&#x27;s laws where it&#x27;s intentionally harming humans. Bad idea.<p>On the opposite side, the robot never gets to fear for its life and end up shooting innocent people. There ought to be high definition recordings proving lethal force was necessary. Freely available to all public for review. Absence of video being immediate summary judgement for misconduct charges to the operators which includes jail time. Police unions thusly aren&#x27;t getting involved.<p>So I can see some pros and cons. The big question I have, why is San Fran the first to do this?<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Homelessness_in_the_San_Francisco_Bay_Area" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Homelessness_in_the_San_Franci...</a>
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dsfyu404edover 2 years ago
The police having killer robots wouldn&#x27;t be a problem worth caring about (or much of one at all) if the police were held to the same standards as the less equal animals when it comes to use of force.
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xwdvover 2 years ago
Instead of thinking of them as robots, think of them as tools. These are remote weapons platforms that allow operators to engage and destroy dangerous targets with little to no harm to themselves. I think it has its place. Remember an incident a few years ago in Dallas where a robot with a bomb was sent to blow up a shooter and saved lives? There is precedence.<p>When a shooter encounters an invulnerable robot armed with a rifle, they instantly know it’s game over. They either comply or be killed, quickly and accurately. Face recognition can enable instant headshots for minimal threat to bystanders.
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