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Ask HN: Is it black holes all the way up?

23 pointsby zoroasterover 2 years ago
This is something of a rant, but I would greatly appreciate your reflections as it&#x27;s a subject that is very confusing for me. Many of you are much smarter than I am, so any thoughts you have around this would be appreciated!<p>People recently have been positing that the big bang occurred as result of a black hole (i.e. black hole sucks up more and more material, gains more mass, until it explodes in a big bang into a new universe).<p>My question is, if this is the case, is there (1) another universe &quot;above&quot;? And is there another universe &quot;above&quot; that eternally? Or is it (2) more the case that our existing universe expands, it reaches an edge of maximum expansion, and a gravity-like counter force causes it to collapse in on itself, until it again repeats the big bang process (eternal recurrence)?<p>Take the first example. If the conditions at the bottom of two black hole &quot;singularity&quot;s are the same - you would expect parallel, equal universes to be generated each time. Copies of the same universe generated over and over again with each black hole. If the conditions were slightly different (i.e. one black hole has slightly more quarks than another), you might have a &quot;parallelish&quot; universe arise where with slightly different initial conditions you experience vastly different results (chaos theory, small changes in initial conditions).<p>If the second were true, given no energy &#x2F; mass would be leaving the system, you&#x27;d expect the same situation to recur eternally. The &quot;universe&quot; as we experience it would be bounded on one side in time by the &quot;singularity&quot; and on another side in time by the &quot;edge&quot; (the point of maximum expansion) creating a fixed, spatiotemporal object. Why does this spatiotemporal universe marble exist and what exists outside of it?<p>I can&#x27;t wrap my head around this. Which scenario is more likely? Does any of this make any sense? If the answer is &quot;we don&#x27;t know&quot;, do you think there is a way to ever answer these questions?<p>It seems like we&#x27;re trapped in some sort of strange, fractalian experiment.

15 comments

LinuxBenderover 2 years ago
PBS Space Time [1] have many videos on various theories about this if you have some time to kill. I tend to lean towards the possibility that I am in the video game &quot;Roy&quot; [2]<p>[1] - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;@pbsspacetime&#x2F;search?query=black%20hole" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;@pbsspacetime&#x2F;search?query=black%20h...</a><p>[2] - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=MH_QCIhSHLs" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=MH_QCIhSHLs</a>
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somatover 2 years ago
I don&#x27;t think it is a real theory, more like science fiction around the mysteries of the big bang, the universe, and the general weirdness of black holes.<p>But it is not that black holes explode into the universe, it is that the knowable universe is in a black hole. like I said science fiction, the part I like is it explains(It does not really, again I repeat no actual science) why time as a dimension only goes one way. just like once you pass the event horizon of a black hole there is no &quot;out&quot;, you have lost half a dimension, inside the event horizon we call the universe, the half dimension we are missing is the out direction of the dimension we call time.
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defrostover 2 years ago
&gt; If the conditions at the bottom of two black hole &quot;singularity&quot;s are the same - you would expect parallel, equal universes to be generated each time.<p>That&#x27;s a strong no (for any sufficiently complex physical setup with moving parts, falling glasses won&#x27;t shatter the same way twice).<p>Two things here are relevant:<p>1) Lorentz (Butterfly) and Smale (Horseshoe Map) both proved that in <i>some</i> physical systems you can always find initial conditions that are very close (for any arbitary epsilon of &quot;close&quot;) that none the less end up far away from each other as time passes.<p>ie: Unless the initial starting points are absolutely precisely identical without question, then &quot;close enough&quot; isn&#x27;t good enough to guarentee an identical outcome in the presence of &quot;strange attractors&quot;<p>2) The Uncertainty Principle tells us that at a fine enough grain (within a certain epsilon) initial conditions are like jelly - you cannot nail them to the wall and declare two systems identical.
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dark-starover 2 years ago
Contrary to popular belief, black holes do not &quot;suck up everything&quot;. The same way the sun does not &quot;suck up everything&quot; in our solar system. Sure, if stuff keeps colliding with the black hole, the black hole gets bigger and bigger (the same way the sun would get bigger and bigger if enough mass would fall into it). But the black hole never turns into a giant universe-eating vacuum cleaner, the same way the sun doesn&#x27;t &quot;eat&quot; everything that gets close to it (e.g. comets pass very close but still get away... the same would happen if the sun were a black hole, and at the same distance, since the mass is the same)<p>On the contrary, due to the expansion of the universe, stuff tends to move further and further away from other stuff over time, so the chances of things colliding with a black hole get smaller and smaller with the age of the universe. At some point all black holes evaporate (at least according to current theories) because so little stuff falls into them that the tiny amount of hawking radiation that they radiate is enough to evaporate them over trillions of years.....<p>Also, the question whether &quot;a universe before the big bang&quot; (if such a thing exists) is &quot;the same&quot; as ours, or &quot;different&quot;, doesn&#x27;t really make sense. If you take all matter in the universe, heat it up so that only high-energy radiation is left, and then let it &quot;create another universe&quot;... . how would you define if it&#x27;s &quot;the same&quot; or &quot;different&quot;? All matter has been removed and recreated. It&#x27;s similar to the idea that you take a ship, any ship, and piece by piece replace every single part of the ship one by one. At the end, is it still the same ship or a different one?<p>To take a more traditional scientific stance, asking &quot;what happened before the big bang&quot; is meaningless because time didn&#x27;t exist, it was created by the big bang. It&#x27;s tricky to wrap your head around the concept, the same way that it&#x27;s tricky to wrap your head around the concept of an &quot;expanding universe&quot; that seems to expand &quot;away&quot; from us in every direction, yet we are not in the center of it. Or that the universe might be infinitely large or even wrap around, yet we will never know because we can only ever &quot;look&quot; 14 billion light years far into the universe. It could be that after travelling for 20 billion light years we wouldn&#x27;t reach the end of the universe (because it has no end) but instead land back on earth.<p>Some questions can never be answered because of physics. They will forever be unknown because answering them either makes no sense, or none of the answers you could give could ever be verified&#x2F;falsified. So: does asking these questions even make sense?
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jacknewsover 2 years ago
Inflation is mysteriously seemingly the opposite of the very rapid gravitational collapse leading to a black hole, ie inflation is sort of like a white hole.<p>I tend to think we are a hologram generated from the surface of a black hole, and yes, probably black holes all the way &quot;up&quot;.<p>Of course, it still leaves the question of the first black hole, and why anything at all instead of just nothing.
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lovvtideover 2 years ago
You might be interested in Roger Penrose&#x27;s ideas about &quot;Conformal Cyclic Cosmology&quot;.<p>As best I understand, he&#x27;s proposing that the universal will not ever fully collapse into a black hole. On the contrary, it will continue to expand and diffuse, eventually reaching a state in the far future—and here is where the details exceed my understanding—somehow physically&#x2F;mathematically identical to the conditions that were present at the Big Bang. Or in other words, if you run time out to an infinity in one direction, it sort of &quot;wraps back around&quot; on itself.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Conformal_cyclic_cosmology" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Conformal_cyclic_cosmology</a>
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cercatrovaover 2 years ago
This video about deep time is pretty interesting: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=uD4izuDMUQA" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=uD4izuDMUQA</a><p>Melodysheep (the creator) has some great stuff on the topic.
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zoroasterover 2 years ago
Hello friends - you&#x27;ll be very happy to know that Exurb1a recently had a great video addressing some of these points. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=Jv79l1b-eoI" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=Jv79l1b-eoI</a>
aristofunover 2 years ago
You have a basic assumption through your post that any of these events actually took or take place in a straightforward materialistic&#x2F;mechanistic way.<p>Whil in reality it’s nothing but purely theoretical mathematical models operating on such a high level of abstraction and uncertainty that it is even hard to decide whether some of your questions make any sense or not.
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ttronicmover 2 years ago
Try thinking of the &quot;big bang&quot; as more of phase change where there was something &quot;before&quot; that was not like the &quot;now&quot; at all. A black hole is also a phase change that expands, but we really can&#x27;t experiment with either deep time or black holes... yet.
dave333over 2 years ago
Short answer is the Big Bang theory is wrong. Physics has major problems including identity of dark matter and the whole quantum entanglement spooky action at a distance thingy. Mills has proposed a purely classical atomic model that solves molecular structures exactly and also identifies dark matter as hydrinos - hydrogen atoms with the electron in a lower orbit than ground state. Mills predicts an oscillating universe alternating between matter-filled and energy filled which avoids any big bang and also no beginning or end. Latest update from Mills: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;brilliantlightpower.com&#x2F;december-update-on-our-progress&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;brilliantlightpower.com&#x2F;december-update-on-our-progr...</a>
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sdwrover 2 years ago
I feel like I need a trigger warning for existential questions.
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jacknobodyover 2 years ago
:) aah, but we&#x27;re not really trapped; mystical truths are pertinent in everyday life.
bradwoodover 2 years ago
Nope.<p>It&#x27;s turtles all the way down.
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vinnie-ioover 2 years ago
the universe just expands, then contracts due to gravity into a single black hole, explodes (big bang), and we start again
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