I am vaccinated but I am upvoting this post because I believe that it is important to investigate these cases to determine how to improve future vaccines. I really don't like how this topic seems to be treated like some fringe conspiracy theory. Maybe it is just a conspiracy, but we won't ever know until sufficient research has been done.<p>Currently, I still believe that people should vaccinate, even if vaccines cause mortality/harm in some cases. As long as vaccine side effects cause less deaths and less harm than the virus, vaccination is still the way to go.<p>My position depends on us having a good understanding of the vaccine's effects however, and right now I feel like we don't.
The last paragraph in the article literally indicates there is no causal relationship or proof of any direct link between the vaccination and myocarditis.<p>> "Finally, we cannot provide a definitive functional proof or a direct causal link between vaccination and myocarditis."
"Interestingly, we recorded inflammatory foci predominantly in the right heart, which may suggest a gradual blood-stream derived dilution effect and based on this finding it is at least tempting to speculate that inadvertent intravascular vaccine injection may be contributive."<p>Does this indicate that the authors believe aspirating the vaccine during administration would reduce the risk of myocarditis? I don't have a biological background so I would be interested in hearing someone else's take on this but that sentence seems to indicate that the authors think ensuring correct administration would lower the risk of post-vaccine complications (which from what I've seen, remains low but non-zero). If that's the case, then perhaps the issue isn't as much with the vaccine itself as how it's being administered.
Key takeaway:<p>>>The reported incidence of (epi-)myocarditis after vaccination is low and the risks of hospitalization and death associated with COVID-19 are stated to be greater than the recorded risk associated with COVID-19 vaccination [29].
Why is it so hard to find data showing how often people are dying, no matter the cause, broken down by vaccination status and age? Surely that would help clear things up. Lots of countries publish COVID-19 mortality rates which show benefits for vaccinated but that's really not helpful for understanding overall risk of vaccines. The UK is the only country I could find that publishes this data and unless I'm missing something things look really bad. Table 2 in [1] shows a 2-3x higher mortality rate for vaccinated vs. unvaccinated in almost all groups this year. Perhaps the unvaccinated are healthier on average, maybe, but 2-3x healthier? Yeah, don't think so. What's going on?<p>[1] <a href="https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/deathsbyvaccinationstatusengland" rel="nofollow">https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsde...</a>.
A question for vaccine skeptics:<p>For it to be a reasonable choice to not want to take the vaccine wouldn't you need to balance the risk of death / complications from the vaccine against the risk of death / complications from covid multiplied by the risk of getting covid?<p>There seems to be a lot of "aha I knew it" whenever any side-effect of the vaccine is found, but aren't the side-effects of covid well established, on average more severe, and much more common?
We coerced young, low-risk people into receiving these treatments despite known side effects on pain of losing their education or employment or being able to enter privately-owned establishments (irrespective of the wishes of the owners of those privately-owned establishments).<p>We justified it with the specious argument that they were putting <i>other people</i> at undue risk by remaining unvaccinated. We claimed that vaccinated people would not spread the virus.<p>And we gave the companies producing these vaccines blanket legal immunity from any potential liability.
> Standardized autopsies were performed on 25 persons who had died unexpectedly and within 20 days after anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination.<p>Sample size of 25 out of a population of... how many tens of millions of young (EDIT: not actually young) men? Seems quite small, and perhaps not sufficient to draw any conclusions. I wonder what the results will show...<p>> myocarditis is another manifestation reported during SARS-CoV-2-infection [24]. It is under debate whether myocarditis in COVID-19 is primarily caused by the viral infection or whether it occurs secondary as a consequence of the host´s immune response, in particular by T-lymphocyte-mediated cytotoxicity or as a consequence of the cytokine storm observed during COVID-19 [25].<p>Interesting!<p>> Finally, we cannot provide a definitive functional proof or a direct causal link between vaccination and myocarditis. Further studies and extended registry are needed to identify persons at risk for this potentially fatal AEFI and may be aided by detailed clinical, serological, and molecular analyses which were beyond the scope of this study.<p>So in total, out of 25 young men, 20 showed signs of cardiac damage. It's suggestive and merits more research. On the other hand, the authors offer no real ideas about <i>how</i> the damage could have happened, other than to observe that since similar damage happens as a result of COVID-19, maybe the immune response is the culprit (provoked by the vaccine, similarly as by the disease).<p>Far from any sort of smoking gun. It's important to keep that in mind.
As someone who did choose to get the latest booster despite being a young male (highest risk group for myocarditis I believe), we should <i>always</i> be questioning what we put in our bodies.
Some are talking about the risk of myocarditis after vaccination as being way less than the risk of dying from COVID. I would say this is just one thing popping up about the vaccines. There no long-term studies of the vaccination even if there are millions and millions of administered vaccines. It's only been three years since the first vaccination was given only 2 years ago, and the control group was burned by giving the placebo group of the control group the vaccine. We don't, and will not know the long-term effects of the vaccine for another 2 to 5 years. The NYT article cited using micromorts to compare this to a soldier in Afghanistan in 2010 is very disingenuous or just bad journalism. It's 12 years after 2010. Let's see where COVID vaccination studies lead to in 2032 for equivalence. Obesity, diabetes, and hypertension were THE amplifiers of COVID deaths, not just COVID. Obesity is the second leading cause of preventable deaths in the US. I contracted COVID pre-vaccine, and having natural immunity ignored completely by the CDC and ruling party, was socially irresponsible. I am speaking of the millions of Americans who had COVID before the vaccine, not people trying to get COVID to get natural immunity. My older children, who also had COVID, were forced by the universities they attended to get vaccinated and boosted. I really hope no long-term effects are found from the vaccine, but I have great distrust of Big Pharma, especially Pfizer. They even burned their control group for a long-term study under the argument they wanted to be humane and vaccinate the placebo group. Yeah, right. Stage 1 for the vaccine's EUA were supposed to include animal biodistribution studies, but even after looking through redacted documents released by Pfizer per the FOIA request to get them, it is not clear. Remember they said it is local to the injection site and breaks down quickly? Let's be prepared to adjust the micromort of the vaccine vs. non-vaccine for people who are not obese, diabetic, or suffer from hypertension and contract COVID in the next 3 to 7 years.
Multiple US universities still mandate the shots for young students in total opposition to Europe, for example: Harvard [0], Yale [1], Tufts University [2], University of California [3], New York University [4], University of Notre Dame [5], Boston University [6]<p>[0] <a href="https://www.harvard.edu/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-information/" rel="nofollow">https://www.harvard.edu/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-informa...</a><p>[1] <a href="https://yalecollege.yale.edu/get-know-yale-college/office-dean/messages-dean/updated-covid-19-vaccine-booster-requirements" rel="nofollow">https://yalecollege.yale.edu/get-know-yale-college/office-de...</a><p>[2] <a href="https://coronavirus.tufts.edu/healthy-at-tufts/covid-19-vaccinations-tufts" rel="nofollow">https://coronavirus.tufts.edu/healthy-at-tufts/covid-19-vacc...</a><p>[3] <a href="https://campusready.ucdavis.edu/covid-vaccination" rel="nofollow">https://campusready.ucdavis.edu/covid-vaccination</a><p>[4] <a href="https://www.nyu.edu/life/safety-health-wellness/coronavirus-information/covid-related-guidance/covid-19-vaccine.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.nyu.edu/life/safety-health-wellness/coronavirus-...</a><p>[5] <a href="https://ndsmcobserver.com/2022/11/university-announces-additional-covid-19-booster-requirement/" rel="nofollow">https://ndsmcobserver.com/2022/11/university-announces-addit...</a><p>[6] <a href="https://www.bu.edu/hr/hr-covid-19-resources/vaccine-required-for-faculty-and-staff/" rel="nofollow">https://www.bu.edu/hr/hr-covid-19-resources/vaccine-required...</a><p>Is biology/science different in the US than in Europe?
Key takeaway:<p>>>The reported incidence of (epi-)myocarditis after vaccination is low and the risks of hospitalization and death associated with COVID-19 are stated to be greater than the recorded risk associated with COVID-19 vaccination [29].<p>I hope the research continues to make it even more safe.
When I got second dose of covid pfizer, I remember feeling really strange. My heart was beating really irregularly and I felt like I was struggling to breathe. My vision also started to gray out in a really weird way. I thought I was going to die in that pharmacy for a few minutes. When I snapped out of it, I was covered in sweat<p>To this day, I don't know if it was a panic attack or a heart attack. Regardless, probably never getting another vaccine after this because just seeing a needle is enough to freak me out
These are very low numbers with only 5 vaccine+death cases found in an area with 8mio citizens.<p>But they convincingly argue that accidentally injecting the vaccination into the bloodstream towards the heart may cause a heart infection similar to those seen in people who got sick with Covid.
<a href="https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4425/rr-31" rel="nofollow">https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4425/rr-31</a><p>Covid-19: politicisation, “corruption,” and suppression of science<p>"Professor John Ioannidis of Stanford University, quotes an infection fatality rate (IFR) for Covid of 0.00-0.57% (0.05% for under 70s), far lower than originally feared and no different to severe flu" -March 2020<p>The bigger scandal is how covid case:fatality rate was so much higher in some places than the global average. <a href="https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/why-some-doctors-are-moving-away-ventilators-virus-patients-n1179986" rel="nofollow">https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/why-some-doctors-...</a>
This meta analysis cited in the OP is good for context: <a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9000914/" rel="nofollow">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9000914/</a><p>>"The overall incidence of myopericarditis from 22 studies (405 272 721 vaccine doses) was 33·3 cases (95% CI 15·3–72·6) per million vaccine doses, and did not differ significantly between people who received COVID-19 vaccines (18·2 [10·9–30·3], 11 studies [395 361 933 doses], high certainty) and those who received non-COVID-19 vaccines (56·0 [10·7–293·7], 11 studies [9 910 788 doses], moderate certainty, p=0·20). Compared with COVID-19 vaccination, the incidence of myopericarditis was significantly higher following smallpox vaccinations (132·1 [81·3–214·6], p<0·0001) but was not significantly different after influenza vaccinations (1·3 [0·0–884·1], p=0·43) or in studies reporting on various other non-smallpox vaccinations (57·0 [1·1–3036·6], p=0·58). Among people who received COVID-19 vaccines, the incidence of myopericarditis was significantly higher in males (vs females), in people younger than 30 years (vs 30 years or older), after receiving an mRNA vaccine (vs non-mRNA vaccine), and after a second dose of vaccine (vs a first or third dose)."
Regardless of any possible danger of vaccination, one has to also consider that vaccination doesnt prevent infection, which is important. As more studies come to light it s becoming evident that Covid damages our bodies in many ways, even with mild infections, it weakens our immune systems and the damage is cumulative every time we catch it. We should be preventing infections , with measures that are appropriate, instead of trying to mitigate the symptoms as we do with vaccines.
> Of note, it has been recently reported that intravenous injection of COVID-19 mRNA vaccine is able to induce an acute (epi-) myocarditis in a preclinical model<p>There have been lots of vaccinations shown in various TV reports over the last years. Watching carefully, there's two different variants: a) jab, aspirate, inject, b) jab, inject. Maybe it is just stock footage and not from covid shots, and everyone has been checking carefully for not finding blood?
It feels like 2021 again.<p>Small sample size (n = 25), small number of incidents of myocarditis, no causal link found between myocarditis and adverse events (including, but not limited to, death) and no causal link found between mRNA vaccines and myocarditis.<p>But do you what does cause myocarditis? <i>Getting Covid</i> [1].<p>Covid and the (highly effective) vaccines are the most clearcut case of evolution in action [2] I've seen in my lifetime.<p>This isn't really worth worrying about this point. Countries (barring China) have largely decided they're over Covid. Get a vaccine, don't get a vaccine. Nobody cares. Looking for justification for not getting a vaccine however reminds me of creationists trying to equate "intelligent design" as "science".<p>[1]: <a href="https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/08/22/covid-19-infection-poses-higher-risk-for-myocarditis-than-vaccines" rel="nofollow">https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/08/22/covid-19-infection-...</a><p>[2]: <a href="https://quotepark.com/quotes/1800059-larry-niven-think-of-it-as-evolution-in-action/" rel="nofollow">https://quotepark.com/quotes/1800059-larry-niven-think-of-it...</a>
We knew this over a year ago, but it's called "acceptable risk" by the CDC. The thing is they never told us that. But it was on that document you signed when you took your jab.<p>You read the fine print right?<p>Moderna had "This is an EXPERIMENTAL VACCINE" on all thier media until not that long ago, and then they just removed that warning. We don't even have clinical trials any more.<p>Those Moderna shareholders are rough, once a week jab was the goal. That booster. Much upset there, when that did not go through.<p>They tried to push "your dog, cats, all your pets WILL need a shot!" That did not get much traction, remember that news?<p>Shareholders bailed. Lets all short TSLA was their next move. How markets work.
Remember that time when everyone called you a conspiracy theorist if you mentioned that mRNA vaccines were inducing myocarditis in some individuals.<p>Remember how they've been wrong about everything. Trust your instincts. Ignore propagandabots.
What most of you still supporting "vaccine" failed to understand is that a jab <i>cannot</i> be developed in less that 1 year. It was a huge experiment and many people paid with either their lives or have suffered severe damage. All for a virus that kill less that common influenza, which a much more dangerous corona virus than covid.
The discussion here is absolutely rancid. So here are the actual the salient points from the study:<p>> Standardized autopsies were performed on 25 persons who had died unexpectedly and within 20 days after anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination. In four patients who received a mRNA vaccination, we identified acute (epi-)myocarditis without detection of another significant disease or health constellation that may have caused an unexpected death.<p>Out of 25 people that died post-vaccination, four patients had signs of myocarditis. That's a fraction of a fraction of people.<p>> Myocarditis is another manifestation reported during SARS-CoV-2-infection [24]. It is under debate whether myocarditis in COVID-19 is primarily caused by the viral infection or whether it occurs secondary as a consequence of the host´s immune response, in particular by T-lymphocyte-mediated cytotoxicity or as a consequence of the cytokine storm observed during COVID-19<p>We don't know whether or not Myocarditis is a result of the infection or the immune response; in either scenario people who are predisposed to myocarditis would likely have similar reactions during either infection or vaccine.<p>> However, the vaccine against smallpox, based on a vaccinia virus, is reported to cause (epi-)myocarditis in rare cases<p>Smallpox vaccines can also trigger myocarditis despite being a more 'traditional' vaccine.<p>> The reported incidence of (epi-)myocarditis after vaccination is low and the risks of hospitalization and death associated with COVID-19 are stated to be greater than the recorded risk associated with COVID-19 vaccination [29]. Importantly, infectious agents may also cause lymphocytic myocarditis with a similar immunophenotype, thus meticulous molecular analyses is required in all cases of potentially vaccination-associated myocarditis.<p>The risk factor is low and the chances of hospitalization and death from COVID-19 in even otherwise healthy people is higher versus the risk from vaccination, similar to other vaccinations.<p>> Finally, we cannot provide a definitive functional proof or a direct causal link between vaccination and myocarditis. Further studies and extended registry are needed to identify persons at risk for this potentially fatal AEFI and may be aided by detailed clinical, serological, and molecular analyses which were beyond the scope of this study.<p>This is not a definitive link between the two, but rather a call for further investigation and to ensure that at-risk individuals are caught earlier and monitored.
N is too small (but that's fine). The study is surely opening up an interesting window for future research.<p>Could it be a side effect of (accidental) intravenous injections, leading to a more pronounced immune reaction?
I will just leave it here for everyone able to read between the lines<p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDJ20spGymE">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDJ20spGymE</a>
Believe your own eyes and ears. The raw data became completely useless once the federal government gave hospitals a blank check for particular codes and treatments.
I was reading it open-mindedly but the use of "jab" is pretty suspicious. Anyone found using this term can be pretty much dismissed outright, right?
<i>Overall, autopsy findings indicated death due to acute arrhythmogenic cardiac failure.</i><p>Arrhythmia can be an indicator you need zinc.<p><i>Proatherogenic factors, released during Zn deficiency, increase the incidence of arrhythmias, strokes, CM, and many other CV system pathologies</i><p><a href="https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2021.686078/full" rel="nofollow">https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2021.68607...</a><p>Prior discussion with a researcher points to zinc as significant wrt covid.
People will believe whatever they want to believe.<p>They only found 5 deaths that had no other real issue besides the vaccine. At that level more people died from shower accidents than vacccine-induced myocarditis (assuming that there was a causal link, which the authors are careful to say they didn't do that analysis).
Interesting, but I'd need far more medical knowledge than I have to put this into context. Does this mean people with existing heart conditions should avoid these vaccinations? Does it mean those at otherwise very low risk for severe COVID-19 shouldn't bother? I sure dunno.
Tiny sample size, and seemingly zero effort to determine whether the myocarditis was already present prior to vaccination.<p>As usual, this fails to be the smoking gun antivaxxers want it to be.
What this article does describe, is <i>how</i> the fatal "adverse events" take place. It's useful to deepen our understanding of the mechanisms of action for undesireable outcomes. And of course it's one piece of a much larger puzzle.<p>Some seem to be interpreting this article as a confirmation that vaccines are inherently not safe. The thing is, <i>every</i> therapy, whether preventative or curative carries an element of risk. This paper is not weighing on the relative safety of the immunization.<p>To someone uncomfortable with the vaccine, this is of course unsettling to discuss, as it reinforces a fear. It's akin to discussing how exactly people's organs got smashed when they got killed by getting ran over by a bus. People who distrust busses will further cement their fears about them.