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Surprisingly Turing-Complete (2021)

108 pointsby GarethXover 2 years ago

9 comments

bdowlingover 2 years ago
Not quite Turing-complete, but any Turing machine <i>that halts on a given input</i> can be simulated by a sufficiently large finite state machine. At each step, a complete TM state can be represented by a tuple of &lt;TM state #, cell position, tape state&gt;. If the TM halts, then it can only have visited a finite number (K) of cells on its tape, plus every possible TM state (N), plus every possible cell position (K), plus every possible state of the tape (2^K). Therefore, we can number each possible state from 1 to N * K * (2^K). Those are the states of our FSM. The FSM transitions are wired up to match the TM transitions to the corresponding TM destination state.<p>Similarly, any actual computer with finite memory can be modeled as a finite state machine with 2^(# bits of all memory, registers, storage) states.<p>Edit: Changed &quot;<i>that halts</i>&quot; to &quot;<i>that halts on a given input</i>&quot;.
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motohagiographyover 2 years ago
Are these meta programs (running on virutal turing machines made of symbolic circuits within programs) effectively able to only arrange the base program&#x27;s heap, and still need an overflow somewhere in the base program to break out of the base program&#x27;s sandbox?<p>I remember this technique being used in the wild and described by google&#x27;s TAG group in a recent paper, but this part about how it goes from toy virtual machine within the base program to a sandbox escape didn&#x27;t land for me.
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FartyMcFarterover 2 years ago
At times I&#x27;ve seen people claiming a system is Turing complete even though it can&#x27;t even implement an infinite loop.<p>For example, Excel spreadsheets (without scripting) can&#x27;t loop infinitely as far as I know, and yet I&#x27;ve seen it claimed that they&#x27;re Turing complete.<p>In the case of this article, what does it mean to say Peano arithmetic is Turing complete? Arithmetic only provides you with a way to manipulate numbers, it doesn&#x27;t provide any way to loop AFAIK.
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dangover 2 years ago
Related:<p><i>Surprisingly Turing-Complete</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=22839035" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=22839035</a> - April 2020 (49 comments)<p><i>Surprisingly Turing-Complete</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=10318729" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=10318729</a> - Oct 2015 (61 comments)
dysocoover 2 years ago
Tangential question; but I just found out about gwern&#x27;s page and I&#x27;m amazed at the amount of content and a lot of it looks very interesting, does anyone know any more personal websites similar to this one? I&#x27;m sure there were at least a couple but I can&#x27;t find them.
MaxBarracloughover 2 years ago
Was surprised to see no mention of <i>Langton&#x27;s ant</i>, which is somewhat like Conway&#x27;s Game of Life, and was eventually shown to be Turing complete.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Langton%27s_ant" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Langton%27s_ant</a>
jdmoreiraover 2 years ago
Magic the Gathering is turing complete. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;arxiv.org&#x2F;abs&#x2F;1904.09828" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;arxiv.org&#x2F;abs&#x2F;1904.09828</a>
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Traubenfuchsover 2 years ago
Does it list Jira?<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=17689446" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=17689446</a>
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oldgradstudentover 2 years ago
I take the strict view.<p>Nothing in the list is Turing-complete because they don&#x27;t have infinite tape it its equivalent.<p>Since memory is finite they are all finite state machines and therefore can only accept regular languages.<p>(Except Peano arithmetic and the like which are purely theoretical)
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