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What happened to the first cryogenically frozen humans?

330 pointsby fbn79over 2 years ago

39 comments

UberFlyover 2 years ago
I wanted to know the state of Ted William&#x27;s head, so I did a search. This is what I found:<p>In &quot;Frozen,&quot; Larry Johnson, a former executive at the Alcor Life Extension Foundation in Scottsdale, Ariz., writes that Williams&#x27; head was abused at the facility. Johnson claims a technician took baseball-like swings at Williams&#x27; frozen head with a monkey wrench.<p>What?
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wintorezover 2 years ago
Never understood the quest for immortality. We are the children of our time. When our time passes, we will live as strangers in a strange land, drowning in the sea of nostalgia. Death will simply takes us back to where we came from before our birth. Don’t fear the reaper.
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kragenover 2 years ago
unfortunate that the author didn&#x27;t bother to distinguish between the effects of state-of-the-art cryopreservation by vitrification and the older cryopreservation procedures that produced the massive fracture damages they mention<p>an awful lot of the article seems to be about how weird it is for people to study things carefully and try to do things that are not known to be possible, with the implicit subtext that being weird is bad<p>abandoning that ideology is how we got the industrial revolution and modern civilization, but unfortunately its adherents didn&#x27;t die out completely, and will likely bring an end to that epoch
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drchiuover 2 years ago
Years ago when I was in medical school, I concluded to improve quality of life, no matter how finite, is a better endeavour than to prolong it. There&#x27;s something tremendously philosophically satisfying to recognizing that death is just the recycling of life so that new life can happen.
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stephc_int13over 2 years ago
Cryonic preservation might or might not be possible, this is clearly a difficult process but we&#x27;re never going to find out without trying.<p>Dead people have no use for money, doing this kind of research is not a waste, in my opinion, even if it is very unlikely to work at this stage.
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tempestnover 2 years ago
This actually reminds me of something I was thinking about a couple days ago. You know how people can be resuscitated after hours with their hearts stopped, if they were in near-freezing conditions? Like people who have drowned in frozen lakes and then been brought back hours later? Someone coined the phrase, &quot;You&#x27;re not dead until you&#x27;re warm and dead.&quot; Well, I wonder if that could be done long term. I&#x27;m guessing all the body&#x27;s processes would be dramatically slowed in such a scenario, giving similar benefits to cryopreservation. Presumably it would come with many new problems (I doubt the brain would survive long term like that without at least some circulation of oxygenated blood for starters), but it&#x27;s at least conceivable those would be easier to solve than the problem of freezing and thawing a body without irreversible damage.
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credit_guyover 2 years ago
Isochoric supercooling looks much more promising. The body does not freeze solid. The temperature is lowered to below freezing, but all fluids remain fluids.<p>I&#x27;m not aware of experiments with animals, and obviously not humans. But here&#x27;s an experiment with human cardiac tissue [1], which went quite well.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nature.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;s42003-021-02650-9" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nature.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;s42003-021-02650-9</a>
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yregover 2 years ago
Wait But Why has an in-depth article advocating for cryonics. (As usual, very tech-optimistic.)<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;waitbutwhy.com&#x2F;2016&#x2F;03&#x2F;cryonics.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;waitbutwhy.com&#x2F;2016&#x2F;03&#x2F;cryonics.html</a>
harry8over 2 years ago
So here is one of my current fav. conspiracy theories AND it involves Elon.<p>Remember the first payload of his &quot;Falcon Heavy&quot; rocket - some tesla or other? Had a tailor&#x27;s dummy in a space suit strapped in the front seat.<p>That was a real person in the suit who had paid for the most effective, reliable and longest lasting cryogenic freeze available. No maintenance power required. Will continue to be frozen even if the earth explodes. Not beholdent to anyone alive to make the right decisions...<p>Elon decided not to just hide it in plain sight but make a spectacle of it with live feeds etc.<p>Probably nonsense but makes a certian amount more logical sense than a dummy in a space suit, huh?
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simonwover 2 years ago
Something I find fascinating about living in the San Francisco Bay Area is that Cryonics has had occasional bursts of interest around here dating back to the 1970s... which means there are genuinely warehouses out here that have had frozen human bodies sitting in them for 40+ years at this point!<p>I keep hoping to score a tour of one some day.
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Veedracover 2 years ago
As far as I can tell, the thesis of this article amounts to ‘cryonics is a weird idea, but what&#x27;s even more weird is believing in the future.’<p>If you put aside the overt scorn, it&#x27;s actually a fairly interesting article, and surprisingly upbeat at that.
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bangaover 2 years ago
I find the whole concept hilarious. There&#x27;s an implicit assumption that someone in the future will be bothered to resurrect a frozen body, then resurrect them from death (since they already died before being popsicle-ified). And even if they could be bothered, the thawed would be a lab experiment, owned by whatever corporation pulled off the magic. And if magically they came out of the ordeal functional and free, there&#x27;d be those pesky bureaucrats to deal with (id, taxes, all the fun stuff). Hilarious.
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esturkover 2 years ago
Regardless of how some might use this tech to prolong life, I&#x27;m confident this tech, or &quot;Hibernation&quot; in other literature, is needed if humanity ever hopes for interstellar space travel.
xg15over 2 years ago
Assuming all of this doesn&#x27;t just end with the bodies being dumped at some point, I wonder if future medicine will use the frozen bodies and brains more like a kind of reference to construct an AI from, instead of really trying to revive them.<p>Sort of how historians can read badly damaged ancient documents, but usually copy over their results to a new medium instead of trying to repair the original document.<p>A lot of the usual philosophical discussions following whether or not the AI is the same as the real person would probably follow...
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User23over 2 years ago
Was it Niven or Heinlein that speculated people in the future would be like screw you popsicles, we need organ donors?
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schneemsover 2 years ago
If you like sci-fi the “bobiverse” series that starts with We Are Legion (We Are Bob) is good and use cryogenics as a central part of the setup.<p>One question it explores: what exactly might people in the future want to do with the consciousness that have been frozen (hint it might not be good), and why?<p>Not award winning like Octavia Butler but it’s a fun read.
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hennellover 2 years ago
&gt; All but one of the first frozen futurists failed in their quest for immortality.<p>I really felt like I&#x27;d missed some big headline here.
plasticeagleover 2 years ago
I wonder what leads people to believe that anyone in the future will be interested in applying their staggering new re-animation technologies to centuries-old frozen corpses?<p>There&#x27;s a comment somewhere in this thread about perpetual motion. This tech seems to be its mirror-image, equal in impossibility, but opposite in aim. To stop all motion and decay, forever. Sometimes, it&#x27;s wise to be circumspect, and to admit the possibility of a future technology that will change everything.<p>In the case of cryogenic storage of viable humans, however, I think it is straight-up, bona-fide, no-exceptions, impossible.
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scaryglidersover 2 years ago
If one of the reasons for wishing to be frozen, is to see what the future looks like, then there is an alternative; Einstein to the rescue!<p>Just strap yourself into a spaceship capable of reaching within a few % of the speed of light, and fly around for a bit.<p>No need to wait till you&#x27;re at death&#x27;s door and turned into a corpsicle. Just head on out there for a few years at relativistic speed. By the time you slow down and return, you&#x27;ll be having pina coladas with your new Felidae-Sapiens masters ;)
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adolphover 2 years ago
The article refers to cryonic storage units as Dewars:<p><i>The vacuum flask was designed and invented by Scottish scientist Sir James Dewar in 1892 as a result of his research in the field of cryogenics and is sometimes called a Dewar flask in his honour. While performing experiments in determining the specific heat of the element palladium, Dewar made a brass chamber that he enclosed in another chamber to keep the palladium at its desired temperature. He evacuated the air between the two chambers, creating a partial vacuum to keep the temperature of the contents stable. Dewar refused to patent his invention, and the flask, as developed by others using new materials such as glass and aluminium, became a significant tool for chemical experiments and also a common household item.</i><p><i>Dewar&#x27;s design was quickly transformed into a commercial item in 1904 as two German glassblowers, Reinhold Burger and Albert Aschenbrenner, discovered that it could be used to keep cold drinks cold and warm drinks warm and invented a more robust flask design, which was suited for everyday use. . . . In his subsequent attempt to claim the rights to the invention, Dewar instead lost a court case to the company.</i>
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DrNosferatuover 2 years ago
I see this as the central plot device of a great new TV streaming series!<p>With all the quirkiness of the 70s and giving Westworld a run for its money ;)
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Mistletoeover 2 years ago
As someone that has frozen cells down many times successfully, I don’t think this will ever work for bodies.<p>If you could save your DNA and a few cells and be cloned at a later date is that good enough for you? No memories but the same code. Is that still “you”? It’s like being an identical twin of yourself.
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ggmover 2 years ago
I would love to know how this is handled in other parts of the world. Particularly the regulatory side because this is a potential health nightmare for OH&amp;S if not the water table and the neighbourhood.<p>The escrow requirements for maintainance of state would be interesting too. Who exactly benefits from the spend? Is this contestable by a future generation? In effect, does the corpse become property?<p>Perpetual funding is a pretty bizarre concept, but that said the entire &#x27;south sea bubble&#x27; debt exist inside British gilts for hundreds of years, they only wiped them out recently at the same time as the WW1 debt, so carrying forward into the future does happen, albiet mostly at scale by governments.<p>I guess if you turned the dewer flasks into a freak show and charged, you might even be able to fund the cooldown by revenue.
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richbellover 2 years ago
If this article piqued your interest, Atrocity Guide has a fantastic video about the history of cryonics.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=IZ2YEESTQUI">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=IZ2YEESTQUI</a>
tim333over 2 years ago
&gt;Cryonics — attempting to cryopreserve the human body — is widely considered a pseudoscience.<p>It&#x27;s not really. It&#x27;s an attempt to preserve the body and not much more of a science than me attempting to preserve some food by putting it in my freezer. Who knows if future technology will be able to bring people back? Claiming it definitely will not without evidence doesn&#x27;t seem very scientific.
Wadajotover 2 years ago
&gt; The family of a man frozen in 1978 eventually got tired of paying for him. The facility offered to cut off his head and store it for free, but the family turned them down. Instead, the body was thawed, submerged in a vat of formaldehyde like a laboratory specimen, and buried in that condition.<p>What?!
1970-01-01over 2 years ago
How long before SpaceX starts up a service to dump these into a lunar lava tube for hyper-long term storage?
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donatjover 2 years ago
&gt; ten months had elapsed between his death and freezing, so his body was in rotten shape — no pun intended — from the get-go and was eventually thawed<p>There is literally no way that pun was unintended. Were it so, it’d be easier to just choose a different word rather than note it’s unintentionality.
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moloch-haiover 2 years ago
How could this be published without mentioning the Bide-a-Wee Scandal touched on in Larry Niven fiction?
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Maursaultover 2 years ago
<i>I, Hatchet Jack ...do hearby leaveth my bear rifle to whatever finds it.</i>[1]<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=bKUPu1epqnU&amp;t=3m20s">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=bKUPu1epqnU&amp;t=3m20s</a>
twelve40over 2 years ago
great little summary about the state of cryonics. However, as an aside, absolutely hated those force-injected spoilers in large fonts scattered throughout the article. What is even the purpose of these annoying things?
tomgpover 2 years ago
“ All but one of the first frozen futurists failed in their quest for immortality.”<p>Seems like it might be premature to claim that the remaining one succeeded in their quest for immortality
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hellothere1337over 2 years ago
In my opinion at least clawing desperately for more time on this world is a pretty bad idea. Say there is nothing after death, then every such advancement in life extension will create even more dread of dying because you can lose eternal life (in the ideal case). I&#x27;d personally be much more scared to live knowing that at any point I can lose possibly millions of years of experiences by dying.
joshuover 2 years ago
disney on ice
acqbuover 2 years ago
Is there life after death? Why is there anything at all?
hahamasterover 2 years ago
Sucks being an early adopter.
jcampbell1over 2 years ago
I thought the idea is the brain is going to be scanned and uploaded to the Matrix.
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DonHopkinsover 2 years ago
My somewhat eccentric friend Keith Henson once performed the grisly task of &quot;converting whole body to neuro&quot;, which the article mentions: downgrading some of Alcor&#x27;s full-body customers to head-only by removing their heads from their bodies with a chainsaw, or as Alcore&#x27;s illustrated report delicately explained, &quot;a rapid conversion to neuropreservation was done using a high-speed electric chain saw.&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Keith_Henson" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Keith_Henson</a><p>Keith is quite a character, who also successfully performed one of the most hilarious trolls ever against Scientology lawyers:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=20791891" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=20791891</a><p>&gt;Just be glad you didn&#x27;t have to explain an in joke about ftp sites, the local loopback address, and a troll, in a deposition, under oath, to Scientology lawyers, like Keith Henson did.<p>The Great Mambo Chicken and the Transhuman Condition, page 93-94:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gwern.net&#x2F;docs&#x2F;transhumanism&#x2F;1990-regis-greatmambochickenandthetranshumancondition.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gwern.net&#x2F;docs&#x2F;transhumanism&#x2F;1990-regis-greatmam...</a><p>&gt;Finally some evidence about the success of cryonics emerged from among the ranks of the frozen themselves. Not that they were revived, they were only defrosted. Or at least parts of them were.<p>&gt;In November of 1983, for the first time ever, a cryonics firm conducted autopsies on the defrosted mortal remains of two Trans Time patients who had been converted to neuro. The parties in question were a married couple who had wanted to be frozen after death. They hadn’t had the required lump sum in advance, but Trans Time didn’t want to turn them away, so it accepted them on a contingency, pay-as-you-go basis. Monthly maintenance costs would be covered by their loving son.<p>&gt;When the son’s parents died, Trans Time suspended them as whole-body patients, which was their desire, and for a number of years everything went along exactly as planned. But then the son himself died, in an automobile accident, after which the monthly payments ceased. Trans Time kept the parents frozen for a while, but it was clear that sooner or later something had to be done. It was a private company, operating without government support — indeed, often in the teeth of government opposition — and could not afford an extended period of unpaid maintenance, especially when for fifteen out of its sixteen years of existence the company had run at loss.<p>&gt;But then the Alcor Life Extension Foundation came to the rescue. It would take care of the frozen parents, essentially on a charity basis, but only on the condition that they could be “converted” first, which is to say, converted from whole-body to neuro, the latter being far less expensive than the former. “The same capsule that you put a whole body in,” Saul Kent once explained, “you can probably put twenty heads in.”<p>&gt;This, of course, meant that the heads had to come off while the patients were still frozen. Not that this was much of a problem. As Alcor’s illustrated report on the case explains, “a rapid conversion to neuropreservation was done using a high-speed electric chain saw.”<p>&gt;This was now a golden opportunity to see how frozen bodies actually fared over their years in storage—nine years for the husband, five for the wife. So the Alcor men thawed out and autopsied the newly decapitated bodies.<p>&gt;There was both bad and good news. “The most unexpected finding as a result of these autopsies,” says the report, “is the discovery of serious fracturing in all of the suspension patients.” There were fractures in the outer skin, in the subcutaneous fat, in the blood vessels next to the heart, in the arteries and veins. The right lung of one patient was cracked almost in half, as was the liver, and there were open wounds on the hands and right wrist.<p>&gt;This was not encouraging, but it was all too easy to lose one’s perspective. The fact of the matter was that the injuries suffered by these frozen corpses were no worse than what’s seen in hospital shock-trauma units every day of the week—broken (if not absent) arms and legs, and so on—but many of these people end up recovering. The fact that the frozen corpses were not in pristine shape was not by itself any cause for alarm.<p>&gt;The good news was that much of the bodies survived perfectly intact. The palms of the hands, the soles of the feet, and other structures were all in fine shape. As for the brains, they remained in suspension and were not examined.<p>&gt;To Alcor, the whole thing was a learning experience. The initial suspensions had not been perfect, but all things considered, the patients came through the whole process about as well as anyone could expect.
stareatgoatsover 2 years ago
According to Wikipedia, more than 9 million people in the US have reported Near Death Experience (NDE) [0]. Some common traits that were reported:<p>- A sense&#x2F;awareness of being dead.<p>- A sense of peace, well-being, and painlessness. Positive emotions. A sense of removal from the world.<p>- An out-of-body experience.<p>- A perception of one&#x27;s body from an outside position, sometimes observing medical professionals performing resuscitation efforts.<p>- A &quot;tunnel experience&quot; or entering a darkness. A sense of moving up, or through, a passageway or staircase.<p>- A rapid movement toward and&#x2F;or sudden immersion in a powerful light (or &quot;Being of Light&quot;) which communicates telepathically with the person.<p>- An intense feeling of unconditional love and acceptance.<p>I&#x27;m not sure, but this feels relevant juxtaposed the prospect of returning to life in a body of unsure quality, with all my friends, relatives and acquaintances long gone, into a world that I can not expect to understand much of. Even if it ever became possible, which I sincerely doubt.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Near-death_experience" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Near-death_experience</a>
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