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Shorting Tether

244 pointsby yoeloover 2 years ago

43 comments

nickpinkstonover 2 years ago
Note that the current Tether investigation just moved to the SDNY DOJ office that handles the biggest financial cases.<p>This time they&#x27;re looking into possible bank fraud committed by Tether [1], while their previous case was settled without admitting wrongdoing [2], but their investigation showed Tether wasn&#x27;t fully backed for activities in NY, while their records of their backed assets have been sealed and CoinDesk &#x2F; others were denied their FOIA request to access them due to &quot;adverse business impact&quot; - so it seems like there&#x27;s a whole hell of lot of smoke around their likely fire...<p>From [2]: &quot;Meanwhile, Tether has resolved government accusations that it overstated its holdings. From June to September 2017, Tether never had more than $61.5 million in funds while about 442 million coins were in circulation, the Commodity Futures Trading Commission said last year.&quot;<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bloomberg.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;articles&#x2F;2022-10-31&#x2F;tether-bank-fraud-probe-gets-fresh-look-by-justice-department" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bloomberg.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;articles&#x2F;2022-10-31&#x2F;tether-ba...</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ag.ny.gov&#x2F;press-release&#x2F;2021&#x2F;attorney-general-james-ends-virtual-currency-trading-platform-bitfinexs-illegal" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ag.ny.gov&#x2F;press-release&#x2F;2021&#x2F;attorney-general-james-...</a>
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spaceman_2020over 2 years ago
I&#x27;ve been deeply involved in crypto the past 3 years and everyone in the space knows that Tether is a scam. No serious investor holds USDT over USDC in their personal wallets. Tether only exists as a way to trade on centralized exchanges.<p>The problem is that everyone in the system is so deeply reliant on USDT that they will do everything possible to prop it up.<p>Honestly, the only thing that can bring down Tether at this point is either the collapse of one of the major central players (such as Binance) or government action.
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uconnectlolover 2 years ago
What exactly is hard about running a fiat backed stablecoin? Don&#x27;t you just accept money for your token and invest it in low risk crap? Isn&#x27;t this exactly what a consumer bank does? Even Paypal does this [1].<p>So is the issue that they just (allegedly) got greedy and made high risk investments? Can&#x27;t Google or some company just make their own stablecoin overnight and have guaranteed profit then? Of course only if it fits with their PR.<p>1. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.paypal.com&#x2F;us&#x2F;webapps&#x2F;mpp&#x2F;ua&#x2F;useragreement-full" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.paypal.com&#x2F;us&#x2F;webapps&#x2F;mpp&#x2F;ua&#x2F;useragreement-full</a><p>&gt; Any PayPal balance you hold represents an unsecured claim against PayPal and, except as provided below, is not insured by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC). PayPal combines your PayPal balance with the PayPal balances of other PayPal customers and invests those funds in liquid investments in accordance with state money transmitter laws. PayPal owns the interest or other earnings on these investments. However, the claim against PayPal represented by your PayPal balance is not secured by these investments and you do not have any ownership interest (either legal or beneficial) in these investments. These combined balances are held apart from PayPal’s corporate funds, and PayPal does not use these balances for its operating expenses or any other corporate purposes. Additionally, PayPal will not voluntarily make these balances available to its creditors in the event of bankruptcy.<p>Note: quote obtained by proxy (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.paypal-community.com&#x2F;t5&#x2F;My-Money-Archives&#x2F;Does-paypal-earn-interest-on-monies-held-while-verifying-a-sale&#x2F;td-p&#x2F;1522805" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.paypal-community.com&#x2F;t5&#x2F;My-Money-Archives&#x2F;Does-p...</a>) as Paypal needlessly block my shared IP.
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darawkover 2 years ago
All the people mindlessly saying &quot;counterparty risk&quot; clearly didn&#x27;t read the article. He has thought about this carefully. His counterparty in this case is Aave, a DeFi smart contract. Smart contracts famously get hacked frequently, of course, but Aave has been around a long time, and it&#x27;s probably reasonable to be somewhat confident in its security, at this point.<p>The second thing you have to worry about is Aave&#x27;s liquidation mechanism: under the market conditions implied by a Tether collapse, will Aave&#x27;s liquidation mechanisms function efficiently and effectively? The answer to that question would depend on exactly how the collapse unfolded (i.e. how quickly it was certain, the degree of insolvency, how much the market moved how fast, etc). <i>However</i>, it is important to note that the only thing at risk here for him is the profit from his short plus the collateral factor haircut, not the entire principal. The trade he did was to deposit $x usdc on Aave, borrow $y usdt, and then sell that usdt back to usdc. That means he physically has CF * principal USDC in his possession, and no matter what happens, Aave can&#x27;t take that away from him. Now, he looped this twice, so it&#x27;s actually CF^2 * USDC that he has, but that&#x27;s still not that big a risk.<p>Finally, he has to worry about the solvency of USDC. However, USDC is regulated in the US and has fairly real audits. Almost nobody seriously thinks USDC is insolvent. I think there is very little to worry about here.<p>Personally, I think Tether is pretty obviously at least mostly solvent, and I think shorting it is a dumb trade that will lose him money. But he&#x27;s going to lose money paying the interest, not losing his principal. People have been predicting a Tether collapse for literally years now, and despite all the market stress and volatility which should have clearly exposed their supposed fraud, they&#x27;re still standing, and the peg trades with solid liquidity at $1 today.<p>My own theory of what&#x27;s actually going on here is that Tether is intentionally obtuse, because it allows them to make seignorage profits against their own users. If you issue a stablecoin and you know you are solvent, then you can hint to the market that maybe you&#x27;re not, and buy (your own) assets that you know are worth $1 at a discount, making a tidy profit in the process. I think this is their real strategy, always has been, and they&#x27;ve gotten very rich doing it. It&#x27;s possible they&#x27;ve been under-collateralized at various times, and maybe are even slightly so now, but I seriously doubt they are currently insolvent to the degree people like this think.
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getToTheChopinover 2 years ago
It&#x27;s a clever trade, and I appreciate that the author pointed out the main drawback:<p>&gt; What does that mean? Essentially that we’re exposed to the risk of something going wrong with Aave itself and not being able to get our money back. (Aave’s own explanation of its risks is here.) In order to withdraw our money from Aave, Aave actually needs to have the money we want to withdraw. When we deposited USDC collateral on Aave, Aave lends out that USDC to other users who deposit their own collateral on Aave. At the time of this writing, about 53% of Aave’s USDC is lent out.<p>Author states that they only have &quot;a couple hundred dollars&quot; risked on this trade. Seems that they&#x27;re just looking to win Internet points by being able to say that they shorted Tether.
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jqpabc123over 2 years ago
Tether is the support mechanism underlying the entire crypto market.<p>You&#x27;re basically betting that the crypto market will collapse ... but the exchange&#x2F;broker&#x2F;whoever you&#x27;re dealing with will survive and have the necessary funds to cover your short.<p>It all seems rather contradictory to me --- you think it&#x27;s all going to collapse ... but at the same time you&#x27;re willing to bet that your little chosen piece of it will somehow survive just fine. And not shutdown withdrawals at the first sign of trouble (like others have done) so you can collect your payout.<p>This is almost like playing the lottery --- winning is pure dumb luck beyond your control.
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Sebb767over 2 years ago
It&#x27;s a sidenote, but part (&quot;Act&quot;) 1 has a strange structure. They start off with Tether doing dodgy business and most likely being insolvent (a very good and sound point), but then end with<p>&gt; Tether’s most public executive, CTO Paolo Ardoino, uses a Twitter avatar that seems to be a pear with the face of the Joker.<p>and<p>&gt; His wife, Claudia Lagorio, began working at Bitfinex as a Mobile Application&#x2F;Frontend Developer in 2016. Three years later, she was appointed Chief Operating Officer of both Bitfinex and Tether.<p>Those are extremely weak claims. The latter is at least a meager allegation of nepotism, although, without more context, it&#x27;s really not that strong. The avatar, on the other hand, is a distraction at best. Ending the paragraph on those claims makes the argument appear a lot weaker, if not even disingenuous.
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britneybitchover 2 years ago
Even if your premise is right, your timing has to be right too. The SP500 has doubled since 2014 which lines up with the traditional 7% per year. Meanwhile they&#x27;re paying 12% per year to short, so their approach is a compounded 22% worse[1] than VTSAX-and-chill (before even considering capital risk). This is still gambling, just not in the usual direction.<p>[1]: 1.07&#x2F;(1-0.12) = 1.22
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adrianchiforover 2 years ago
You know who already made tens of millions in profits and will continue to because of stories like this? Market makers that redeem billions of USDT for cash with Tether&#x2F;Bitfinex every time it goes under $0.99. Borrow USDT on leverage, cash out at $1 to US bank, mint USDC with Circle, swap to USDT, repay USDT loan and bank the difference, rinse and repeat until it&#x27;s back to $1.
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gitfan86over 2 years ago
During the &#x27;07 housing crisis people bought &quot;Synthetic CDOs&quot; which where actually bets on a particular set of mortgages defaulting.<p>For example, they bet that a group of mortgages where the borrower had no proof of income and a mortgage with a very high interest rate in a location where prices were falling would fail. It seems like a reasonable bet, but they didn&#x27;t take into account that the people taking these bets had no limit to how many times they could take the bet. Eventually they had enough money to just payoff the mortgages and win the bet.<p>I would be very concerned here that the same type of risk could happen
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josh2600over 2 years ago
I feel like most people look at stablecoins and say &quot;this is such an easy business!&quot; and in a way they&#x27;re right, but they&#x27;re also wrong.<p>Stablecoins derive stability through a system. This system uses collateralization to present a fixed price. In its most simplistic form the system has $1 for every $1 in it. Unfortunately, in such a system, there is no point in the virtualization, which is called hypothecation in finance.<p>Hypothecated assets exist to allow asymmetric risk. Think of it this way:<p>* Alice runs a bank and has dollars in it.<p>* Bob runs a stablecoin and wants it to be backed by dollars.<p>* Alice says &quot;you can mint $1 of hnUSD for every dollar I have in my bank.&quot;<p>* Bob mints 1 hnUSD.<p>* Alice invests the dollar in their bank into US treasuries to earn a yield backed by the full faith and credit of the United States Government.<p>* Bob is free to use his hnUSD for whatever he wants to do in his ecosystem and Alice will be able to redeem it when he brings it back to Alice&#x27;s bank when she sells her US treasury.<p>The problem in all of these systems is actually hauntingly simple: Liquidity is king.<p>In the event that Bob needs dollars quickly, Alice may not be able to sell treasuries quickly. This is called a liquidity crisis.<p>Before we start pointing fingers at cryptocurrency, take a second and think about how banks work. All of banking is built on hypothecation and risk management. The businesses that stand the test of time in finance are the ones that manage risk most effectively. There is a time to be bullish, and a time to be bearish. Having the wisdom to know the difference is often won only with battle scars.<p>I am thankful for the public-private partnership that facilitates humanity&#x27;s collective dream through finance. I am hopeful that we can learn the lessons of the past to not repeat history&#x27;s mistakes.<p>The future of finance is on-chain governance&#x2F;on-chain proof of reserves&#x2F;on-chain liquidation.
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lvl102over 2 years ago
It’s been more than a decade and it’s still not that cheap to short crypto. I am 100% convinced that’s by design. If you think equity is rigged, crypto is a complete circus. I rather not deal with it even if money can be made. It’s going to slam you at some point.
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acjohnson55over 2 years ago
I had this same idea a few months ago: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mobile.twitter.com&#x2F;AlanJay1&#x2F;status&#x2F;1418786319199780865" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mobile.twitter.com&#x2F;AlanJay1&#x2F;status&#x2F;14187863191997808...</a><p>I&#x27;d bet on USDT failing in 3 years. But I&#x27;d want to understand how the close-out works under the assumption that the non-stablecoin collateral in Aave crashes and the liquidation process isn&#x27;t able to preserve the value of the pool. I haven&#x27;t studied that in depth. My guess is there&#x27;s non-negligble risk of not being able to get that return on the last leg of the trade, even if the hypothesis is right.
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vgatherpsover 2 years ago
An potential failure case for defi is that some contract:<p>* Is looking at USDT pairs as well as USD pairs for a price oracle and doesn&#x27;t handle USDT pairs going to infinity well (i.e. BTC&#x2F;USDT skyrockets) when tether goes to zero<p>* Effectively hardcodes the value of Tether to $1 (can happen by accidentally treating a X&#x2F;USDT pair as an X&#x2F;USD pair)<p>I suspect that the major lending protocols (AAVE, Compound) have enough attention and effort to not make such a basic mistake but there&#x27;s a whole wide world of less competent protocols out there.<p>This can happen to centralised venues as well of course but as far as OP is concerned those are too risky for the tether trade (an assessment I agree with).
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ansibleover 2 years ago
Man, I&#x27;d love to short Tether too. But that would mean giving actual USD to some other exchange, and I&#x27;m yet to be convinced that there are any exchanges who aren&#x27;t running some kind of fraud scheme as well.
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pearjuiceover 2 years ago
Lots of people have been saying Tether is a fraud for years now. Even some very smart and highly regarded people; patio11 comes to mind. Yet in all those years, Tether had no major depegging event, bankrun or any other noteworthy chain reaction whilst big frauds unwinded, hacks happened and over-collaterized bubbles popped. I&#x27;m not saying Tether isn&#x27;t a fraud, but I feel the chance it falling as an unbacked stable coin is long gone. More likely they will end up OFAC sanctioned (such as happened with tornado cash) for roleplaying as the federal reserve.
rthomas6over 2 years ago
I still like DAI. Nobody seems to have heard of it or remember it exists, but it&#x27;s a stablecoin that doesn&#x27;t rely on &quot;trust me bro&quot;. It&#x27;s soft pegged to the dollar through its algorithm. While the crypto world seems to have been almost entirely replaced people interested in and having a basic understanding of the technological side of it with people who want to get rich quick while understanding nothing, DAI has remained successfully pegged to the dollar. Not perfect but also not likely to take a permanent dump.
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tgsovlerkhgselover 2 years ago
Even if counterparty&#x2F;protocol risk don&#x27;t eat you, &quot;the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent&quot; applies here and the interest can eat you.
jboogie77over 2 years ago
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;oppositeinvict2&#x2F;status&#x2F;1536510984654929921?s=46&amp;t=rhQ1D6juAEaQ8ThDNnbZxQ" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;oppositeinvict2&#x2F;status&#x2F;15365109846549299...</a>
low_tech_loveover 2 years ago
”Tether’s large enough by now, and significant enough to the crypto ecosystem, that crypto’s major players will likely do just about anything they can to stop it from failing.” Where have I heard that before…
actinium226over 2 years ago
I, for one, think I&#x27;ll get in on this trade with some play money just because this seems like a nice way to learn about smart contracts and defi and <i>maybe</i> get paid to do so.
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hoschiczover 2 years ago
Note that interest rates on USDT went down now and now it costs around only 3 % APR to short it. I&#x27;ve been short for a year now and will be fairly rich if Tether burns to the ground.
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JayStavisover 2 years ago
A prediction market feels like a straightforward way to short something like this.<p>Also I feel like there&#x27;s plenty of people who would take the other side of the bet. Who wants to make it?
paulustheover 2 years ago
You don&#x27;t have to short tether specifically. If tether goes under, everything will go under. Just short whatever large ish coin which has cheapish carrying costs.
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tim333over 2 years ago
Good luck with the shorting but 10% seems kind of steep. I guess if there&#x27;s a &gt;10% risk they go to zero in a year it&#x27;s ok. I shorted Tether briefly on Kraken and then was horrified to find they were charging me ~25% per year for so doing.
cgb223over 2 years ago
Has anyone found a reliable platform in the US to legally short &#x2F; take out PUTs on a crypto currency in the US?<p>I went looking last year and couldn’t find anyone allowing this feature. Binance had something close but only on their .com site not their American .us site
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0x53over 2 years ago
Currently you can get a variable rate of around 3% on compound finance. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;v2-app.compound.finance&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;v2-app.compound.finance&#x2F;</a> might be a cheaper way to do this.
femto113over 2 years ago
Tether effectively denominates the entirety of all crypto valuations, so going to any exotic length to do a specific &quot;short Tether&quot; trade seems silly. Just shorting BTC&#x2F;USD will have the same effect.
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jeffreyrogersover 2 years ago
For it be worth doing for a hedge fund they&#x27;d need to be able to put on a sizable trade. Let&#x27;s say $1mm but probably a lot more. Is there enough liquidity to do this? I have no idea.
deadlast2over 2 years ago
Keep away. Obviously crooks involved in the tether from the beginning. These crooks are big financial institutions and you might get sucked in to a short squeeze.
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GlitchMrover 2 years ago
The problem with shorting cryptocurrency is that you are assuming that market is fair, when this is absolutely not the case - the market is heavily manipulated.
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYKover 2 years ago
I&#x27;m willing to take the bet. Let&#x27;s send $10k each to a reputable escrow. If after a year USDT trades under $0.9, you get $20k. Otherwise, I get it.
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jupp0rover 2 years ago
There&#x27;s also the risk of collateral damage to BTC and other crypto assets. That sweet money you are making is coming from somewhere.
faangiqover 2 years ago
Good luck cashing out that USDC broski …
queuebertover 2 years ago
The problem is no one can calculate a Sharpe ratio for crypto. The variance is not well understood.
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arezover 2 years ago
just short coinbase, if tether blows up, the whole crypto market will blow up, therefore coinbase will blow up. There&#x27;s no way coinbases stock price wouldn&#x27;t go down if tether and bitcoin go to zero
paulpauperover 2 years ago
<i>So now we wait, paying 12.36% a year for the eventual pleasure of saying “I told you so”. Seems like a pretty good deal to us.</i><p>Not really. most of your money will be gone in just 6 years if nothing happens Obviously, borrowing in usdt is very good if it goes to zero.
arisAlexisover 2 years ago
Please refrain from doing what OP is proposing for your pocket’s sake
m00dyover 2 years ago
&gt; If USDT collapses to a price of, say, $0.01 USD &#x2F; USDT, you can buy up 100M USDT for $1M USD, and hand back that Tether to Genesis to satisfy your loan.<p>Why would Genesis be still alive after Tether&#x27;s collapse ?
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charcircuitover 2 years ago
Tether is 100.38% backed by assets. This means they can always trade Tether for USD. About 80% of their assets are liquid meaning that Tether&#x27;s supply can shrink by up to 80% and they can still pay out within a couple of days.
WinstonSmith84over 2 years ago
More like &quot;Shorting Tether for Fun and Slow Bleeding&quot;... 8 years of FUD and still here, it doesn&#x27;t take 8 years to do a safe 2x in crypto, not even in trad-fi.
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pteroover 2 years ago
I admit that I only skimmed the article, but the first thing that jumps at me is counterparty risk; the same risk the author is trying to avoid in his rejected &quot;just short Tether&quot; option. The proposal seems to put a bunch of crypto exchanges in the transaction path which, thinks me, can bring trouble* should the Tether collapse the way FTX did.<p>More generally, while Tether may be a house of cards that will eventually collapse, placing a bet on it has actual costs. And &quot;the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent&quot; is an adage worth remembering. My 2c.<p>*either directly, by failing to deliver the winnings should the trade go the authors way; or indirectly, via clawbacks when govvies and lawyers go after those who made profits to (minimally) compensate those who was left holding the bag.
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mouse_over 2 years ago
Money printers bad. Including the Federal Reserve (since its inception 109 years ago, the US Dollar has lost 96% of its value.)<p>There is an argument that deflationary currencies are bad because people will not want to spend them as they accrue value, but that value has to go somewhere; either stays in your pocket with deflationary currency or goes to some billionaire&#x27;s fourth yacht&#x27;s heated seats with inflationary.
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