His interests are more in socializing and hobbies than tinkering in python, C++, or javascript. He had a few classes in js and C++ and did very well, but its not something he continues to do on his own.<p>I am not a developer or cs engineer, but my thought is for him to change majors if tinkering doesn't come naturally.
There's a lot here to unpack, but I don't believe this is a red flag. CS is not a "gimme" major. If he's continuing to pursue it and the college isn't weeding him out, then he's clearly doing alright and has enough enthusiasm for the major. Let him continue.<p>On a more personal note, I don't believe this is any of your business. Your son is a grown adult. Perhaps he's getting a degree on your dime, but he needs to make his own choices in his education, and you aren't living his experience. You're very focused on "tinkering" as a tell for whether he's in the right degree, but only he can know if he's happy in his major.<p>My wife had a father who was very involved in her choice of majors, and it left her with anxiety and a sense that her college years were wasted. She was left feeling like getting his approval was more important than reasoning through her own decisions. The best thing you can probably do for him long term is let him make decisions, even if you think they're wrong.
I don’t think tinkering outside work/class is required to be a good programmer. Nobody rags on accountants for not fiddling with spreadsheets as a hobby. I think the frequent expectation in tech that programmers live & breath code all the time is actually pretty unhealthy. I got into programming as a hobby, but the longer I’ve been a professional at it the less I do in my free time because I just don’t think it’s mentally healthy to do the same thing 80 hours a week.<p>I do think there’s a risk, if he doesnt also pursue programming as a hobby, of being out-competed by those who do. But not to point of it not being a viable career, just maybe not being like top-of-the-heap. Which is fine, it’s a big industry, not everyone needs to be the best.<p>The other thing I’ll note is that programming is definitely a career that requires ongoing professional development. Tech changes, you gotta keep up with it to stay relevant to some degree. A lot of that ends up being on-the-job, but like other jobs some it inevitably isn’t.<p>With those caveats addressed: if he’s doing well and continues to do well, I think it’s entirely possible to have a career programming without also treating it as a hobby.
TBH he'll be much more objectively successful in career/life if he puts lots of time into socializing -- Actually "doing hard programming work" lets you be a programmer, but "networking" lets you be a programmer's boss or executive. The party animals seem to bifurcate into like 80% incredibly successful people and 20% burnouts ten years later, even the ones that were total basket cases at the time<p>And even with "passion projects", self-promotion is most of the "objective success" if that's what one cares about<p>Some of my biggest regrets are being heads down in the lab for most of undergrad, being heads down in hackathons programming instead of walking around bullshitting with the other attendees etc. - Really just mechanisms to avoid the "hard work" of socializing as an introvert while feeling superior about it
The only red flag here is you. If your son is in college, he is likely to be at least 18 and therefore an adult in most countries. He is responsible for his own decisions, and is also the one to suffer the consequences.<p>If he was studying accounting would you worry if he wasn't having fun doing people's taxes at night? If he was studying chemistry would you worry if he didn't have a mad scientists lab going on?<p>Let your son live his own life.
I’m a college CS teacher. I would say if he were not doing well in his classes, then it might be a red flag. If it’s not an academic interest, a talent, nor a hobby, then it’s not a good fit. But since he is doing well, let him be, unless you talk to him and find out he’s doing it for the wrong reasons.
You should be careful here and make things more objective. If you are looking at rational cues e.g. "socializing and good grades" and concluding that he needs a change, we can also say that you are being irrational wrt the social-norms bell curve.<p>A lot of mental coding goes on inside the mind first, and some people have an inner coding voice / logical internal monologue.<p>In such a case he's definitely coding all the time. So social life might even be therapeutic in quieting the inner monologue, so to speak. And that's just one example...<p>Good luck and always a good idea to let him know you are available to listen whenever.
I am a sophomore right now. I know multiple students who have no interest in Computer Science outside of the classes and are still majoring in it.<p>I don't think this is a bad thing at all. To each their own.<p>Is there anything wrong if he wants to stick with it for now? As long as he knows that he can always switch majors if he wants to, there is nothing wrong with preferring to socialise over tinkering outside class. You can't force it, until it clicks.
It might have been a red flag 20 years ago, but the software engineering space has really opened up a bunch. I know plenty of engineers who only code at work and they range from okay to excellent.<p>Coding as a hobby doesn't guarantee you'll be a quality engineer and not coding as a hobby doesn't preclude it.<p>The absolute best in any domain will normally involve living and breathing your profession. The difference now is that the hyper majority of software projects do not require anywhere near absolute best in technical ability.<p>Honestly, ability to socialize gets you further than technical ability nine times out of ten. And in the one in ten where you need the technical chops then being able to socialize means you can find and organize the talent you require.
As someone who studied at state schools with poor CS tracks and then worked in academia at universities that had incredibly strong CS tracks I've advised my kids to go to a school driving whatever industry they're interested in or don't go at all. They're still a few years away from that but I'll leave the choice up to them.<p>And to all the people stating "they're and adult not a child". Dude, I wish my parents would have had the ability to critically think about my school and major other than that blanket statement that "college good". They cared but didn't know enough to think about the specifics. Could have saved me a lot of cash and/or post education study.<p>That and they're always your child no matter how old they are. You'll always be invested. You'll always have unsolicited advice. It's totally a parents business. You can express concerns without breathing down their necks or being a control freak.
It’s worth noting that universities bundle two distinct things under the header of “CS”: computer science and software engineering. The former is coding. The latter is math.<p>Perhaps your son is in the latter category?<p>Addendum:<p>Speaking from experience, the single biggest gift parents can make to 20-somethings is to give them time to explore. I’m sure it’s unnerving because it often looks like aimlessness, but it’s important. Exploration takes time — lots of it — and finding a meaningful career path requires exploration (and some risk). Please don’t smother that. I promise your son will be forever grateful.<p>PPS: I suspect I have an educational and professional history so full of meandering and exploration that the mere thought would give you an ulcer. It worked out beautifully for me, both financially and in terms of personal fulfillment. If you think it might be helpful, I am happy to chat about it, and share my perspective.<p>Wanna connect?
> I am not a developer or cs engineer<p>So you're saying you're less qualified than your son when it comes to determining whether someone might do well in CS?
College is the best time in his life to socialize and build relationships that last a lifetime. Let him do his thing. If his grades are fine why are you worried?<p>For a fresh out of college grad new hire/interview they're going to care much more about grades and school prestige than hobbies or side projects. At least for the major FAANG companies. Something like "deans list BS computer science from Berkeley" or "masters in CS with specialization in AI/machine learning from Stanford" on the resume is going to matter much more for easily getting hired in today's market than "I.. uhh.. like to tinker in my spare time".
Are any of his hobbies things that could be careers?<p>You don't have to eat sleep and breathe programming to pay the bills with it.<p>Have you considered talking to your son about his goals and dreams?
if he’s doing well, don’t go behind his back and ask people if his behaviour is “correct”. what a weird thing to do as a parent. forcing him to code, or asking him why he doesn’t, will only damage your relationship.<p>as others have said, nobody expects accountants to do maths in their free time, or biologists do dissect things, or teachers to teach, etc.<p>and as a personal anecdote: i’m not great at maths, not the smartest at coding, never coded much for personal fun. i did a little bit of coding, and mostly played with OSes, linux, stuff like that. and i worked in several countries around the world, and now am a staff engr at a FAANG, so … it doesn’t matter.
I started my degree 20 years ago. Maybe 25% of my classmates still code, and that's a high estimate. I'm perhaps one of a tiny handful that code for fun, not just money. Does it really matter if they learn this stuff, pass the course, and then never look at a computer again?<p>Few degrees are vocational but my feeling from your post is that you think it's a waste to study something don't plan on doing for the rest of your life. Kids don't see it that way. They see something they have a faint interest in, or something they're good at, not a 40 year career at the end of it.<p>It might be worth a discussion with your son, but it won't go well if you make it about what you want or what you think they should want. Manage your own expectations. Try and be conscious that parenting transference ("my parents always want me to do the best I could") or overcompensation ("my parents couldn't afford me these opportunities") are both as harmful as each other. Kids are generally good. Don't be afraid to trust their judgement.
No. If he's doing fine in his classes then that's good enough. You don't need to be a techy nerd full time in your life to succeed. And there are plenty of jobs where you can use your tech eduction or skills without being a coder. PM, sales technical roles. Eventually manager. He will be more successful if he's interested in it, but there are lots of adjacent jobs to actual coding.
If he’s happy and successful, I think he’s fine. In fact, perhaps better then fine.<p>Plenty of new CS grads go straight into Product/Program Management, and there are plenty of other roles such as consulting and sales that really value being able to combine people skills with technical skills. Having been in that world, the right combo of people skills and technical knowledge is both hard to find and remunerative.
I have an in-law who is the goofy, super lazy kid. Can’t be bothered to do anything. We sent him to school for like 1 semester and he didn’t go to class and just screwed around. His SAT scores off the charts. He just sort of codes and is a genius and doesn’t give a crap or have super crazy aspirations or ambitions.<p>It drove me insane. Zomg your wasted potential!<p>Honestly coding really sucks. Like I don’t know why anyone celebrates it. You barely get to do it in big companies, where you are sort of stitching a bunch of crap together.<p>On the flip side, the engineers I know who became super prolific were all ultra creative. Many have multiple creative hobbies while also being top open source contributors.<p>The most prolific open source developers I know have tons of random interests. The weirder ones, who like doing things like curing weird meat in their fridge and brewing weird alcohol drinks in their bath tubs turned out to be the best.<p>So I don’t know.<p>It’s actually the case where if you told me he sort of does code and has extremely exotic and strange hobbies, then you might have a super star.<p>Programming to me didn’t make sense until I was immersed in a context where it was useful.<p>I didn’t feel the urge to program until I was working on things where protramming helped me go faster.<p>No amount of yelling would have made me into coding in college because there was no use for it.<p>If he goes to work and encounters situations where code helps him go faster he may get into it.<p>In college - coding just often may not make sense or feel a relevant tool.<p>So idk.<p>If he is getting broad exposure to a lot of technology then that is great. Couldn’t tell you.
I think this is a perception issue on your part. You’ve got what appears to be a misguided idea of what a “correct” programmer is.<p>There’s a ton of programmers that don’t tinker on their own time. <i>Especially</i> in university. Socializing and being a healthy, well-rounded human is probably a more valuable use of his time.
For what it's worth, this is a legitimate question to ask and I don't think it means you are a weird, overbearing, helicopter parent for asking it. It's what you would do with the advice that would make you one of those.<p>As for the answer, I would agree with the others that this is certainly not a "red flag", you can be a successful programmer without being a hobbyist programmer, and you can build a non-programming career on a CS degree. That said, I do find it unusual for a CS undergrad to have no interest in programming outside of coursework. It can be hard to distinguish between "no interest" and "interested in other things" though. It's worth understanding more, but if he's doing well in his classes he very likely knows what he's doing.
He can always go to graduate school and become an attorney, underwater basket weaver, or whatever he wants. For many folks, CS is only the beginning and if they don't enjoy the work they'll naturally move on to something else.
I think you might be looking for a founder wonder child and your kid might be fine just working to live. If his life is well rounded while maintaining academic success I think you should feel relieved. He’ll probably have a career, maybe in a “safe” or corporate environment, and have terrific amount of freedom to balance his less lucrative interests to find pleasure, and pursue meaningful connections with friends and romantic partners. Sounds like you have a smart kid going to college to find a job
Although I'm something of a computing hobbyist myself, I think having academic interests and hobbies outside of computing is very beneficial.<p>If he might end up working in computing, I think it's even more valuable to explore other interests and activities in college and beyond; he'll spend more than enough time sitting at a keyboard for work.<p>The comments that we don't criticize other professions for not devoting enough leisure time to their work discipline are also spot on.
The part where you actually sit down and type in code isn't the part that is fun for me anyway. I like solving problems and the problem needs to be solved before you know what code to write, so the fun part is over before I even open an editor. Maybe he likes programming but just doesn't like typing code.
If he seems happy and is paying enough attention to it to do well in class then I wouldn't worry too much about it.
A person in CS who seems to have good technical jobs and also knows how to socialize is a rare breed and will do well in the real world ;)<p>Edit: chops, not jobs
I know a few CS majors that didn’t end up as coders<p>Smart enough to graduate but either didn’t want to code all day or got pulled into other aspects of the business
I would be more interested to know how he is performing in his classes. If he is doing fine, then there really isn't an issue. There are plenty of devs out there who don't spend their free time writing code and your son can easily be one of them.<p>Is he generally pretty active about driving decisions in his life or does he just roll with things in a passive manner?
> my thought is for him to change majors if tinkering doesn't come naturally<p>I wouldn't worry about that. Not everyone that studies CS loves programming, a lot do it because it's a way to have a good career, and that's fine.<p>> He had a few classes in js and C++ and did very well, but its not something he continues to do on his own.<p>You have to give a bit more details about how much he writes code and his general situation (which year, classes, etc.).<p>One thing that is a guarantee, is that people that do their own projects on top of school and get internships will be light-years ahead of someone that does neither, in terms of skills.<p>From my personal experience, I did a class with people in their last semesters that were literally unable to write any code beyond the basic exercices they had seen in class. They had basically never written and ran an actual project, and it was obvious that they wouldn't have a good time getting a job.
You're probably right. I never went to college but I started learning how to code in my late 20s because I could finally afford a used computer by then (late 1980s).<p>It tore me up to go to friends homes and see a Mac or Commodore 64 sitting on a desk collecting dust. When I got my first used computer in the early 90s, (a Commodore 64) I dove into learning how to program. Back then I didn't know anyone who knew how code. I started buying books in the 90s and still have most of them.<p>So I think you've got a great point about "if tinkering doesn't come naturally".<p>Coding something is often times designing the logic to do something you can't copy and past a solution for. It's that kind of challenge that makes it interesting (and frustrating), but if that doesn't intrigue and inspire you than it might not be a good career choice.
I somewhat disagree with the other comments. I believe practising, even in your free, time is a dramatically important if your goal is to be one of the best. Look at the titans of our industry. Do you think John Carmack or George Hotz “thinker” less than 40 hours a week? Constant practise and love of your craft is easily the most important factor in becoming great at anything.<p>With that being said, maybe your son is not interested in becoming the next Bill Gates. It is ok to not be the best. Average developers make a fair living. And even if he has high hopes but no chance of succeeding - maybe let him learn that lesson on his own? Learning to make decisions about one’s own future is much more valuable than anything they teach in college. Let him give up or succeed on his own.
I think he should find an existing FOSS project to get involved with, which has a similar style to a typical IRL project, to see if he likes it.<p>I'm not a parent or an expert on life, but I sure do see a lot of programmers who love tinkering, but hate their job, hate tech in general, and spew nonsense micro services, constant rewrite, and reinvent js framework wheels endlessly, trying their best to treat work like a throwaway weekend project, as if playing with ideas mattered more to them than being a part of a quality product.<p>If I had to guess, just based on my increasingly biased view of the tech scene at the moment, he'll either hate programming and get bored, or be <i>exactly</i> the kind of dev I'd absolutely love to work with.
It's definitely _helpful_ to a young dev if they have a passion for what they do, and it's a trait that would serve them well as they grow their skills. But it's also not a requirement. It might just be the case that his workload from classes takes up enough energy that he's not interested in coding in his spare time.<p>I'm a firm believer that it's not a requirement for people to enjoy the thing they do for work so much that they want to do it in their spare time. Do people who frame houses build frames for fun off the clock? Do garbagemen go around the neighborhood emptying cans just for the hell of it? No, and no one thinks that's weird.<p>If he's doing well in his classes, he's probably just fine. I didn't start programming on the side until well after I started my actual career. To me in college, it would have been like doing math in my spare time - programming was homework, not something I did for fun.<p>One other comment I'll make is that when I was in school I did not yet have the skills I'd have needed to build satisfying side projects. I was learning the basics of syntax and logic, wrapping my head around the concepts behind coding. It wasn't until I was further along in my career that I had enough experience to actually build anything I wanted to build. I found my mid-level programming classes pretty difficult too, and definitely wasn't interested in further "punishment" in my free time!<p>tl;dr - I don't think you have anything to worry about. If your son is doing well in his classes, that's good. Let him enjoy his hobbies and social life.
I know electrical/electronic engineers that don't know how to solder (which is how things were done in their day) and can't actually construct physical circuits. Hell, one of them is an IEEE Fellow.
If only there were a career path for someone who's technically competent and also able to interact pleasantly w/ human beings.
What's that management thing you're talking about ?
I started college more than 20 years ago. I had an internship during school and I've been a professional software engineer since I graduated. I get nothing but great performance reviews and I've naturally risen to leadership/mentoring position in every job I've ever had.<p>I've never "tinkered" or written code outside school or work. Ever. Not before college, nor after.<p>It's also incredibly weird you're complaining your son is socializing. Socializing is normal and healthy, spending all your free time working is not.
I wouldn’t sweat it too much unless he is struggling in school or showing a lack of interest in his studies. The value of a degree in any of the sciences translates easily to many careers.
I don't see any problems; my only suggestion is first see how he feels about it as an actual field to work in (software engineering, etc.) and if it's something he'd enjoy doing as a _career_, even if only for the money. If so, I definitely recommend getting some internships (a decade ago when I was a CS major, I had good friends like this but they never put effort into getting internships, so it made the transition from school to career a lot more difficult).
> my thought is for him to change majors<p>To something else that he won't tinker with either, and in which he doesn't have a track record of doing well like he does in CS?
What are his hobbies?<p>If it aligns with his hobbies, then ask him to take humanities/liberal arts as major and CS as minor; or do a business degree.
I think you may be confusing CS with Software Engineering. CS is a math heavy field that talks about computing machines, architecture, Operating system, among tons of other things. At Masters level, a degree of programming is almost always a pre-req unless the University is a diploma mill.
Having the drive to tinker can have an advantage.
And treating it as just a means to an end is not problem at all, one can become a Product Manager or anything other than a programmer in the tech industry and that's usually a better occupation than being a monkey for big Corps.
Monkey in big Corp here.
Having a CS degree, doesn't mean you have to code. Some of the best product managers or designers I've worked with have a CS background.<p>Also change to what? Granted I went to a top school, but I remember people with engineering or CS degrees even getting finance jobs, etc... over other majors.
Software development is just one discipline in CS. This is probably an indication that he doesn’t enjoy writing software, which is fine. What does he like in CS? Which courses did he enjoy? Maybe he can get an internship, take courses, or go to grad school, to develop that interest.
Eh.<p>Not everyone has personally-inspiring projects/problems in the back of their head.<p>Is it that beneficial to screw around with not-very-useful toy project where - because you aren't invested - you aren't going to be doing the hard work of figuring out if you're doing it the best way anyway?
People don’t always get a job in what they major in. If he’s doing well and continues to do well he should complete his degree, he may not use much of it but it will set him up with the ability to learn and solve problems that other majors may not emphasize.
Yes it is red flag if he does not like programming. CS is very involved major. It needs lot of hands on work if you want to become good engineer. If he is doing his coursework and good at programming he do ok but may not excel.
Is it red flag for it being a bad fit or something else?<p>The more important thing is what does he like? I agree with the top comment though that on some level, he is an adult now and your ability to direct his life is more diminished now.
He's fine. I didn't code in my spare time until well after finishing my CS degree.<p>Coding is a truly painful experience at the beginning. It will exhaust every ounce of your passion. Give it time but also let him do whatever he wants?
Many of my peers do not code in their free time and have done very well in their internships and now in their full-time jobs.<p>I have periods of my life where I don't code at all in my free time but I still really enjoyed studying CS.
Not a red flag. You don’t need to be a coder to be successful in tech.<p>Coders are well served having smart people around them who have other skills and can still speak tech. He’ll probably do better than a run of the mill engineer.
Sounds like he'll have a fast ascent in tech. If he can get stuff done without putting in more than he has to and has good social skills, he could be a good fit for management in a tech company.
I think you should watch the whole series: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/shorts/PbrOTMRZJcY">https://www.youtube.com/shorts/PbrOTMRZJcY</a>
Recommend him continue doing MBA. He isn't that technical even though maybe very gifted academically or even programming. As long as he is not heavy into dirty programming, after 3-4 years he will be very weak compare to his peers. By 10th year he will be totally consider incompetent in programming even though he can read a bit of the codes. Since he is social, it is more likely he able to flourish well in the management level (or sales). Having MBA from reputable school allows him to have direct entry into that tier without needing to go thru the lower ranked CS artisans. I am in HR for more than 3 decades, so that is what I can observe and tell.
one path that seems to do well is get a heavy tech degree than do anything-but-heavy-tech when you get out -- something like solutions engineer, sales engineer, success engineer, sales, consulting, etc. -- stuff that might only require 30 min/day of coding, if that -- possibly more install, configuration, troubleshooting, etc.<p>the CS background can be very helpful for understanding computer-related tech.
Sounds like he's a normal college student who's doing well in class.<p>Most professional programmers would rather spend time on hobbies than working, too.