TE
TechEcho
Home24h TopNewestBestAskShowJobs
GitHubTwitter
Home

TechEcho

A tech news platform built with Next.js, providing global tech news and discussions.

GitHubTwitter

Home

HomeNewestBestAskShowJobs

Resources

HackerNews APIOriginal HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 TechEcho. All rights reserved.

The Spaceballs Argument for Unconditional Basic Income

83 pointsby 2noameover 2 years ago

31 comments

ovi256over 2 years ago
&quot;Life requires work. You can&#x27;t just expect to live without work, and it&#x27;s wrong for someone to live off the work of others. So UBI has no moral justification.&quot;<p>How about:<p>&quot;You&#x27;re gonna want something that other people make or do or do to you. If they&#x27;re not your parents or lovers or partners, you better have something to give in exchange for that thing you want. Otherwise, why would they give it to you ? Making something others want is work.&quot;
评论 #34344072 未加载
评论 #34343976 未加载
评论 #34344070 未加载
评论 #34344218 未加载
评论 #34343955 未加载
评论 #34343985 未加载
评论 #34347787 未加载
评论 #34345557 未加载
评论 #34344995 未加载
评论 #34344652 未加载
Seviiover 2 years ago
For a counterexample imagine you are born on a space station where it costs $1,000,000 per year to provide air for you. Should you have to a work a job to breath air?<p>The problem of universal basic income strategies is that they only work when the earth is far below its human population carrying capacity for the current technology level.<p>If we were at carrying capacity the idea would be ludicrous because you not working would result in one of us starving to death.<p>Pre-civilization there was a very strict limit on human populations based on the natural resources they could extract via labor. Anybody who didn&#x27;t work starved in short order.<p>Universal basic income is basically inventing a new right to tax other people for your sustenance (much like feudal aristocrats) in times when we have food surpluses.
评论 #34344088 未加载
评论 #34344075 未加载
评论 #34344199 未加载
评论 #34346575 未加载
评论 #34344142 未加载
评论 #34344330 未加载
评论 #34344501 未加载
评论 #34345986 未加载
bmmayer1over 2 years ago
&gt; Land used to exist without a monetary cost to access it. That was the natural way of things prior to the private property system and monetary system. We created poverty as we know it.<p>This is silly. First of all, only wealth can be created or destroyed, not poverty, which is the absence of wealth. My ape ancestor swinging from a tree without easy access to food, clothing, shelter or medicine is poorer than I am, full stop.<p>Second of all, there has never been a paradise where resources are communally owned without clear limitations on the use and distribution of those resources, usually at the behest of corrupt, tyrannical or murderous leaders.<p>Third of all, the existence of a monetary cost or private property is moot when it comes to defining ownership. An eagle doesn&#x27;t use money or property laws to own his nest, but it&#x27;s not like any other eagle can use it without cost.
评论 #34344069 未加载
评论 #34344204 未加载
评论 #34344383 未加载
评论 #34344105 未加载
评论 #34344319 未加载
评论 #34344102 未加载
googlryasover 2 years ago
Land existed without monetary cost but had even worse costs associated with it - you had to defend it from other humans who would roll in and kill you for it.<p>Or, you couldn&#x27;t do anything to access certain land, because the people who controlled it thought you said shibboleth the wrong way and would kill you if you tried to use that land.
评论 #34344488 未加载
Manuel_Dover 2 years ago
&gt; Land used to exist without a monetary cost to access it. That was the natural way of things prior to the private property system and monetary system.<p>Yeah, the &quot;natural way&quot; of things was that you and your tribe fought off and killed competing tribes trying to access your resources. This isn&#x27;t particularly desirable, which is why monopolization of violence by larger entities was established.
评论 #34343890 未加载
评论 #34344266 未加载
评论 #34344067 未加载
Nifty3929over 2 years ago
&quot;We created poverty as we know it.&quot; - No, poverty was not created and needs no explanation. Poverty is a default state.<p>What humans created (to varying degrees, of course) is PROSPERITY, which is a surprising and remarkable achievement, and seems unique to humans.
评论 #34344390 未加载
评论 #34344416 未加载
andorovover 2 years ago
&gt; Land used to exist without a monetary cost to access it. That was the natural way of things prior to the private property system and monetary system.<p>All land &#x2F; resources were staked out by small tribes of humans who might kill you for using it?
评论 #34343907 未加载
评论 #34343934 未加载
locallostover 2 years ago
People are generally stuck in a shell they call reality, which are actually just stories they tell themselves to make some sense and rules people made up in the past that they grew up with. If UBI goes against some view you understand as reality, then of course you&#x27;ll say &quot;how dare they think of that&quot;. There is talk of property in the other comments here, and a funny thought here: not so long ago, it was entirely normal to own property in the form of other people. Now it&#x27;s completely not normal because you can&#x27;t actually own a human being as the reality is that we want all people to be created equal. But at the time, it was normal and if you would question that a slave owner would probably say &quot;how dare you, I paid for these slaves, I own them&quot;. But then we reached a higher level as a civilization.<p>As far as UBI is concerned, I&#x27;m just sceptical that it will transform the system. More likely it will be just absorbed by the system, e.g. my rent will just get more expensive and I will not actually be able to work less. Not saying I think it can never work, but I am not sure.
评论 #34344468 未加载
kodyoover 2 years ago
Author&#x27;s assumption is that private property created poverty, and that hunter&#x2F;gatherer societies were somehow more ideal than agrarian ones, which is nonsensical.<p>Poverty is the default state. It&#x27;s there by default. Do nothing, have nothing. Do nothing as a hunter&#x2F;gather, you&#x27;re poor relative to your peers and you die.<p>Whatever cult UBI arises from is attempting to ameliorate the default by giving people something for nothing. Fine. That&#x27;s honest.
评论 #34344005 未加载
评论 #34344063 未加载
Tade0over 2 years ago
&gt; Imagine it were actually possible for one person to own a machine that sucked up all the oxygen in our atmosphere, and that the air we need to breathe to live was then sold to us in cans of Perri-Air like in Spaceballs.<p>I don&#x27;t have to imagine anything because I live in area engulfed by smog every winter. I literally have to pay to breathe fresh air (from a filter). What&#x27;s worse the ones responsible for this just want to not have to suffer the cold.<p>It sucks, it truly does.<p>&gt; but it&#x27;s a common occurrence to tell people going hungry that they should just get a job to buy food.<p>Unrelated: how often do people actually go <i>hungry</i> in the US? I thought homelessness is a much more immediate problem when you&#x27;re out of money.
DoreenMicheleover 2 years ago
I&#x27;m against UBI, though I&#x27;m for easier access to food stamps in the US for anyone who wants them.<p>Since the end of WW2, we&#x27;ve torn down at least a million SROs* in the US and not really replaced them with anything comparable. In their absdnce, people have turned to living in RVs, the Tiny House movement has been born and there are too many chronic homeless, many of whom eventually end up in California which seems to take the heat for the failed policies of an entire nation.<p>The Tiny House movement began as an idea for how to live with less and when it ran up against the fact that it&#x27;s not legal to build a house that small, rather than fight city hall, they slapped wheels on them as a hack to get around the rules.<p>The reality is that the US has made it illegal to build a lot of the housing that we once had in abundance and which worked well: small residential spaces in walkable, mixed use neighborhoods where life without car ownership was quite feasible and even the norm.<p>Cars have only been in vogue for around a hundred years. In that short time, we&#x27;ve whored out our urban planning processes to the worship of the car and we tell anyone for whom that doesn&#x27;t work for any reason to quit their bitching and stop bothering people. If you can&#x27;t drive for any reason, you are a second class citizen and how dare you get all uppity and act like you should have some reasonable quality of life without needing to either be able to drive or so rich you can hire a chauffeur to do it for you.<p>UBI won&#x27;t fix our problems anymore than student loans fixed our problems. Student loans didn&#x27;t level the playing field for the less privileged. It made them slaves to paying their debts, often while unable to get the kind of good job their degree supposedly guaranteed them.<p>Throwing money at this problem won&#x27;t fix it. UBI won&#x27;t buy poor people a basic, decent life. The kinds of goods and services needed to provide such largely do not exist in much of America and it&#x27;s a fevered pitch uphill battle to try to establish any of them in far too many cases.<p>* <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Single_room_occupancy" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Single_room_occupancy</a>
评论 #34344297 未加载
recuterover 2 years ago
&quot;God willing, we&#x27;ll all meet again in Spaceballs 2: The Search for More Money.&quot;
baggy_troughover 2 years ago
Food is not just laying around on the ground in most cases. It requires work to create it or render it useful and accessible. I don&#x27;t think the analogy with stealing the air and selling it back is very good, because creating the air to breathe does not require work.
评论 #34343859 未加载
评论 #34343975 未加载
评论 #34343945 未加载
incomingpainover 2 years ago
&quot;What if someone owned all the air.&quot;<p>Never in our history has anyone ever cornered and monopolized an industry worldwide. Even bringing it down to country level, the exceptions, government formed monopolies. Of which in the last 40 years or so has been incrementally reducing. Nobody is talking about going back to public workers for roads. How about we break every single government monopoly? Problem solved.<p>What if someone owned all the air. You pay their toll until you build a biosphere and seal in your atmosphere with loads of plants. Then you stop paying and stop receiving their bottles of air.<p>You start producing your own air and compete against the giant space robot.
kriskrunchover 2 years ago
Many states in the US already pay residents more than they can earn at a job.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;committeetounleashprosperity.com&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;2022&#x2F;12&#x2F;Paying-Americans-Not-to-Work.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;committeetounleashprosperity.com&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;...</a><p>&quot;In 14 states, a family of four with two unemployed workers can receive unemployment insurance benefits and ACA subsidies equivalent to a job that pays $80,000 a year in wages and health benefits – or more. In another 10 states, a family can receive the equivalent of a $70,000-a-year job. For these families, work may literally not pay.&quot;
adolphover 2 years ago
Payment for use of the shared gasses known as the atmosphere may be an important improvement and makes sense as an extension of carbon taxes paid by automakers and other industries. This tax is invisibly passed on to consumers although perhaps intended to encourage improved fuel economy. Consider all classes atmospheric takings (either by consumption of elements like oxygen or dispersal of particulates or other gases), why not make everyone pay to the value found in atmospheric use?<p>An example of this is already found in Colorado, where cans of supplemental oxygen can be found in gas stations and grocery stores.
评论 #34345989 未加载
Auncheover 2 years ago
UBI in theory means that everyone in the world should receive a modest income (in the order of $2&#x2F;day). This is something that I would support.<p>UBI proposals in practice means that an exclusive in-group gets gets the wages the comfortable middle class wages for free and outsource all their work to an out-group that doesn&#x27;t qualify for UBI. Working conditions for the out-group are slow to improve because they have very little political power. Meanwhile, the in-group stagnates and becomes completely dependent foreign work paid for by free money. This is exactly is what happens in the Gulf oil nations.
评论 #34346266 未加载
评论 #34344197 未加载
jkmcfover 2 years ago
Unconditional seems extreme to me.<p>If you get money&#x2F;free stuff from the gov&#x27;t, perhaps the gov&#x27;t should require something in return, though not a job in the strict sense. I.e., it wouldn&#x27;t require 40h per week. Perhaps it&#x27;s 1 day per week, 1-2h per day, or something even more flexible, but it&#x27;s not so much that it would prevent you from improving your situation by other means.<p>Even if it&#x27;s &quot;picking up trash around your neighborhood&quot;, you&#x27;d be helping make things better.
tshaddoxover 2 years ago
Yep, this is a pretty glaring flaw of any ideology that tries to reduce ethics to property. Any such ideology is using a sleight of hand by pretending as if property is a simpler or more fundamental notion than ethics. Any time you hear an argument like &quot;you should be able to do whatever you want as long as you&#x27;re not aggressing against another person or their property&quot; you should ask them whether they think all possible distributions of property are equally ethical.
Overtonwindowover 2 years ago
Universal basic income only works for a very short period of time. As we saw with the push to raise the minimum wage, once inflation rose, it wiped out any gains by the rise in minimum wage. If the government starts giving everyone a guaranteed basic income, the market, and the economy will respond in kind.<p>Prices will go up. More cash is available in the system. Therefore, the end result will be very little gained but a tremendous amount of money wasted
EricEover 2 years ago
Good grief. It boggles my mind that anyone can still bang the UBI drum after what we are still going through with free COVID bucks.
Kon5oleover 2 years ago
The argument fails since the prosperity we want to share via UBI is in fact not like the air sucked up like in spaceballs. it is instead the result of generations of hard focused work, which has not been replicated under any system except the one where ownership is essential.
irq-1over 2 years ago
Noam Chomsky makes related argument: Magna Carta Messed Up the World, Here’s How to Fix It<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;chomsky.info&#x2F;20150323&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;chomsky.info&#x2F;20150323&#x2F;</a>
anonymouskimmerover 2 years ago
To preface: UBI will not truly solve a problem until limitations are put on the extraction of economic rent. If everyone gets UBI then everyone will be expected to have UBI, so landlords (the original rent seekers when ignoring taxation) know that they can extract the UBI plus whatever they charged before. House sellers know that they can factor in the UBI into their selling price. Yeah, maybe some economic competition will limit how much of the UBI any given rentier or seller tries to extract, but you could easily end up in a situation where a person&#x27;s multiple rentiers try extracting more than the UBI from them, putting them right back into the situation a UBI is supposed to prevent - not enough money to live on.<p>If UBI is going to exist without solving the problem of rent seeking it might be better to do it as multiple scrips or coupons, each good for only a particular thing (e.g. rent, food stamps, etcetera). This adds a layer of bureaucracy, but at least a person would be guaranteed a minimum amount of funds for each life necessity, instead of having it all taken by one thing.<p>And I know that this analysis of mine is missing quite a bit. E.g. Good Luck with implementing a UBI over the long-term, and for everyone.<p>-------------<p>&gt;&quot;The thing is though, this isn&#x27;t that far from what we actually did here on Earth centuries ago. Land used to exist without a monetary cost to access it. That was the natural way of things prior to the private property system and monetary system. We created poverty as we know it.&quot;<p>Taxation and indenturing existed before money. Taxes have previously included a certain amount of raw goods or labor. Even in non-agricultural tribal systems I assume people would be expected to contribute to the common weal as best they could.<p>&gt;&quot;It is a position not to be controverted, that the earth, in its natural uncultivated state, was, and ever would have continued to be, the COMMON PROPERTY OF THE HUMAN RACE. In that state every man would have been born to property.&quot;<p>I agree. But anyone who takes a look at squirrels or birds know that they fight over territory. Humans simply &quot;civilized&quot; the fight by attaching it to documents and currency.<p>&gt;&quot;If it&#x27;s wrong to choke or starve someone to death unless they do what you want, then it&#x27;s wrong to withhold air or food from someone unless they do what you want.&quot;<p>This is universally wrong. However taxes, and any other cost to living, is not forcing someone to do what you want. It&#x27;s forcing someone to do <i>something, anything</i> which generates a cash income. It&#x27;s an incentive to labor of some sort, though unfortunately, in our current system, it&#x27;s also an incentive to become a rentier. The rentier is the problem, not the incentive to work. Though yes, no one should starve or be homeless, even if they can&#x27;t labor.<p>&gt;&quot;Let&#x27;s just recognize that Earth actually does belong to all of us, everyone in the present and future, and that those who own pieces of it, and who create things out of it, owe compensation to the rest of us for removing our access to what would otherwise have been common property.&quot;<p>I agree with the sentiment stated by Thomas Paine and this article. I just don&#x27;t know that a universal UBI will be the way to do it. At least not without solving the rentier problem.
alphazardover 2 years ago
This piece is an embodiment of a peace-time mindset. All this rationalizing and scheming about how we should divide up resources, and whether a given scheme is moral&#x2F;fair, whatever that means.<p>None of that scheming makes any sense until violence has been factored out of the negotiation by a government. None of it is applicable to dealing with a foreign power.<p>Until you have secured X (the atmosphere in this example) you aren&#x27;t in a position to talk about how to divide up X. The problem for the citizens of Druidia isn&#x27;t that they haven&#x27;t discovered Marxism or UBI. It&#x27;s that they can&#x27;t protect their atmosphere from a giant vacuum cleaner.
jl6over 2 years ago
Such arguments remind me of this[0] classic note from Douglas Adams.<p>“These politicians, eh? They’re so stupid! Why don’t they just make essential goods free? After all, we were better off as hunter gatherers! Also Spaceballs lol amirite?”<p>I say this as someone who supports some aspects of land reform and UBI. These sophomoric snipes at “conservatives” are just echo-chamber noise.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gist.github.com&#x2F;freakboy3742&#x2F;c699f293c9b5e77ef289" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gist.github.com&#x2F;freakboy3742&#x2F;c699f293c9b5e77ef289</a>
calculatteover 2 years ago
I&#x27;ve seen this argument before. Back then we called it the Strawman Argument. Not much has changed.
mabboover 2 years ago
I think the most important point that the author makes is not whether property and the earth are common goods or not, it&#x27;s simply that <i>there&#x27;s enough food for everyone</i>.<p>There&#x27;s enough food to keep everyone well fed. There&#x27;s enough homes to keep everyone housed and safe. There&#x27;s enough health care resources to keep most people reasonably healthy.<p>But we choose that some should starve, some should be homeless, and some should die prematurely because it allows some others to live a slightly more decadent lifestyle. Some, an obscenely lavish lifestyle. And yes, it is a choice we make as a society.<p>I&#x27;m not advocated for communism. We don&#x27;t need a Gini Coefficient of 1. But maybe we could take some steps in the direction of sharing a bit more rather than continuing to rush in the other direction, and claiming that it&#x27;s the fault of the poor that they aren&#x27;t wealthy.<p>UBI isn&#x27;t impossible or unreasonable. It just would mean that some folks- and probably a lot of the people on HN given software developer compensation lately- would need to do with a slightly less decadent lifestyle.
recursive4over 2 years ago
The author would enjoy Atlas Shrugged lest he move intellectually closer to his purported libertarians.
gavanwilhiteover 2 years ago
Great framing! Easy visual to remember :-)
gigel82over 2 years ago
Even in a post scarcity society where we fully automated food production (as well as the production &#x2F; continuous repair of all machines and systems that produce and distribute food -up the chain) this is not tenable.<p>What would motivate someone from going to medical school and busting their ass to help and care for lazy bums mooching off the free stuff from the government? They&#x27;d just want to stay in their free housing, enjoying the free food and entertainment too...<p>This utopia won&#x27;t be possible until we produce self-sustainable machines that can execute all jobs that humans can today.
评论 #34344108 未加载
评论 #34344259 未加载
评论 #34344239 未加载
评论 #34344221 未加载
评论 #34344584 未加载