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This is why I don't give you a job

588 pointsby fourspaceover 13 years ago

54 comments

antalbudover 13 years ago
Dear Andor,<p>It is hard to leave this post without response. Both because I am Hungarian, and also because I happen to be an entrepreneur. The only reason I think this post deserves a response is because it seems you haven't started your business yet.<p>So here is my advice: don't do it. Just don't.<p>Not because of the taxes, but because of your utter lack of respect towards your future employees. If what's really holding you back is that you couldn't deliberately fire them, I see no reason why you would even want to hire them in the first place. I think what you don't realize is that you as an employer would become responsible for your people. They would depend on you and their monthly salary, and I think if you see your employees as some company assets you can just get rid of as soon as things get tough, you really shouldn't hire anyone to begin with.<p>I would like to believe you are slightly distorting reality to shake things up. But if you are actually serious about founding a business, I would suggest you do not hire your 12 males in their twenties right in the beginning, instead, you hire a few people you actually _want_ to work with, and pay them a decent salary. And pay the taxes, as high as they are. Just because _you_ would be happier with lower taxes, does not mean that it would help the country's economy. Maybe try innovating and charging more instead of low-balling.
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henrikschroderover 13 years ago
Yes, social responsibility is a bitch for the individual businessman. Boo hoo hoo.<p>But for society as a whole, these things are good. Long maternity (and paternity!) leave is good for the children that will one day grow up and become productive members of society. Having laws around parental leave preventing discrimination means that society doesn't have to deal with paying unemployment welfare for women around 30, and having a hard time re-integrating them into the workforce at 40. Instead this cost is spread out among all the companies in the form of employment laws.<p>I understand that all businesses <i>wish</i> to have a workforce consisting only of young well-educated males that are never sick, never take vacations and work lots of overtime, but there's a cost to getting that, and almost all businesses forget, or refuse to understand the value society provides to them. You want a workforce? Sure, it's gonna cost you, both in corporate taxes, and in social responsibility by employing less desireable individuals. Tough shit, pay up.
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mttsover 13 years ago
A classic among businessmen all over Europe (I'm Dutch).<p>And it's wrong(1).<p>When you spend 3000 Euros to hire someone who nets 1500 Euros, the difference is not "stolen" by the government, it's what you pay to have access to a pool of highly educated potential employees who get free(ish) health care, childcare, pensions that you as an employer don't have to worry about.<p>There are of course places where such taxes are not levvied, but it's a mistake to assume an employer can simply pocket the 1500 Euros difference as employees will demand higher salaries so they can save up for their own medical care, child care and pensions.<p>(1) Except the bit about maternity leave: it may not be three years (!) all over Europe but even if it's a mere six months it's enough to cause small businesses to be very reluctant to hire women in the child bearing age.
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toygover 13 years ago
After the first paragraph I was already thinking "Wow, I don't want to work for E760 per month, that's basically on the poverty line!"... then I checked where the guy was from; Hungary is a backwater, and absolutely NOT representative of the EU, probably not even of the old eastern bloc.<p>Three-years maternity leave? That's unheard of in western Europe, most countries allow for less than a year (my wife got 6 months in the UK); men only recently started to enjoy some rights in that sense (in the UK it's two weeks).<p>He talks about a post-50 "protected age" where you can't fire people. That doesn't exist in the UK, where we have the opposite problem (firms firing people near pension age, and then hiring youngsters at 1/3rd of salary). I know in other countries laws are tighter (in Italy it's fairly hard to fire people, for example), but as people say over there, "Facta lex inventa fraus" (as soon as a law is written, a way around it will be found"): in countries with rigid laws, firms now hire almost exclusively on a temporary basis, i.e. they hire people as contractors for years or even decades, abusing the relationship.<p>The high taxes and pension contributions are also a factor in Italy and in France, but not elsewhere.<p>What this post is representative of, is the general douchebaggery of European "entrepreneurs"; they usually come from "old money" (banks are very conservative with their lending, favouring entrenched players) and bring a terrible mindset to the workplace, i.e. "screw the employees, they're just idiots anyway". This obviously doesn't motivate workers, keeping productivity low.
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klsover 13 years ago
Wow I always hear people talking about why Silicon Vally cannot be reproduced in Europe, but I have never seen anyone put it so pointed. Thanks for education someone in the States about the realities of some areas of Europe.
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fierarulover 13 years ago
The title should be "why I don't give you a job <i>without doing tax evasion</i>".<p>In Romania it's about the same: the taxation for an employees is high and so is social security (pregnancy leave, difficulty firing, etc). But people don't complain as much because tax evasion is really high.<p>Of course, this is really annoying for me because if your customer is in the US they will not pay you behind the counter, they will do a wire payment or such, which goes straight into accounting and is taxed.<p>In this regard, tax evasion becomes unfair competition.
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ootachiover 13 years ago
The author realizes that these 5 restrictions don't even apply in Silicon Valley, right?<p>1. I can fire you, if I want to.<p>California has at-will employment, but you sure can't fire someone based on gender or age anywhere in the United States—and he opens with his desire to do just that.<p>2. If VAT goes down to at least 20%, better yet 15%.<p>Sales tax alone is not 20%+$.01 anywhere in the Bay Area, but there are a surprising number of added taxes here and there—Healthy San Francisco, for example, or the California state gasoline taxes—that can make the surcharges on consumer goods add up to that level.<p>3. If the state takes away "only" 30% of your money.<p>Federal income tax + California state income tax + FICA significantly exceeds that for most people in the technology industry in Silicon Valley.<p>4. If higher income is not exponentially punished.<p>The US certainly does have a progressive income tax scheme.<p>5. If the states punishes corruption instead of decent companies.<p>No-bid contracts, anyone? The US is hardly free of corruption.<p>He's asking for a place that doesn't exist. Moreover, it's a place I wouldn't want to live in; I don't want to live in a place where it's legal to discriminate against minorities, in particular.
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mhartlover 13 years ago
The solution to all such problems is as obvious as it is unlikely to happen. It's not "women get six years' vacation if they want it". It's not "at-will employment". It's <i>complete freedom of contract</i> in the context of <i>secure, effective, and responsible government</i>.<p>You and your employer come to an <i>ex ante</i> mutually beneficial agreement. A <i>secure</i> and <i>effective</i> government will enforce such a contract, unless it represents an egregious abuse by one of the parties. A <i>responsible</i> government will formulate a wise definition of <i>egregious abuse</i>.<p>Once you start to enumerate all <i>unenforceable</i> contracts, you will come to understand how far we are from this situation. And when you look at how insecure, ineffective, and irresponsible governments are, you'll see why we may never get there.
bmeltonover 13 years ago
And this is, in large part, why startups work so much 'better' than larger companies.<p>Startup hires tend to be somewhat self-selecting, as the jobs tend to draw young males without families. The risk of the job makes it more appealing to those types, but the field is generally overrun by men, which is a topic that seems to come up every few months as well.<p>What that means is that the eco-system is better for lean startups. You don't have to have the 'buffer' budget over actual costs that corporations do. Large companies typically offer paid vacation, matching 401k, disability leave, maternity leave and all that jazz.<p>If you're working on a lean startup right now, ask yourself what would happen if your lead developer disappeared for three months.<p>This is one of the real disadvantages we face as a nation because, in large part, the people we outsource labor to don't have these protections.
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mihaelaover 13 years ago
I'm a woman running a small ISV in Croatia, and a mother too. I would never hire a woman either, for the same reasons. As a matter of fact I wold not hire anyone locally, I just opted for the "outsoucing" via VAs and such. The thing is that it's very hard to fire someone, and human workers cost too much.
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Evgenyover 13 years ago
Sort of "meta", but interesting: <a href="http://andorjakab.blog.hu/2012/01/03/hungary_not_funny_anymore" rel="nofollow">http://andorjakab.blog.hu/2012/01/03/hungary_not_funny_anymo...</a><p><i>That blogpost made me kind of like a celeb, a bloghero or something. Fact is, that single blogpost generated half a million pageviews, 91141 Facebook likes in a matter of days. It was covered on national television, I was "the blogger of the week" at the biggest local blog provider (blog.hu), a whole bunch of responses were written by big names in the trade.<p>Newmedia analysts were trying to figure out what made it such a big meme, out of the blue, from totally nothing, without any mainstream media promotion. People shared it like hell, on Facebook. Likes were rising by hunderds, by the second. Like this: 30145, F5, 30359 ...</i>
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danmaz74over 13 years ago
Just as an added fact, for those who don't know it, Hungary is currently ruled by an extreme right-wing party which is pretty much doing away with democracy.<p>Edit: The EU is considering if measures should be taken; I hope they will, and fast.
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someone13over 13 years ago
Counterpoint to the idea in this article - I don't like the idea of at-will employment. I'll keep the political or ideological ranting off HN, but in short, I don't think that being able to fire any employee for any reason whatsoever is a good idea.<p>Interesting to hear how things are in other parts of the world, though.<p>EDIT: If you're downvoting, by the way, please leave a comment about why. I don't really care too much about the karma, but I'd love to hear why people disagree (and for the record, this comment is at -1 at the time I edit).
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kayooneover 13 years ago
I run a company in germany, if my employees want EUR 1500 net salary, which is very little for a trained professional, it costs my company roughly EUR 3000. So not that much better.<p>I dont know what this guy is doing but he should just sell his service internationally so he could easily charge double the money and would solve most of his problems.
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andorjakabover 13 years ago
It's an honour to be discussed here, HN is my #1 source of useful information. I won't disturb. But please let me use this chance to get some tech help. The Hungarian version of this post (<a href="http://jakabandor.blog.hu/2011/07/27/tolem_ezert_nem_kapsz_munkat" rel="nofollow">http://jakabandor.blog.hu/2011/07/27/tolem_ezert_nem_kapsz_m...</a>) has 'lost' it's Facebook likes. I can't figure out why. If you check it with a tool (<a href="http://saqoo.sh/a/labs/fblinkstats/" rel="nofollow">http://saqoo.sh/a/labs/fblinkstats/</a>) it's there, but 0 is displayed on the blog. Any ideas?
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3pt14159over 13 years ago
I can't believe how pro-government interventionist the views are here. Sure the guy's rant was over the top, but isn't this Economics 101? Arn't all the added costs the government puts on hiring workers perfectly reflected in the supply demand curve resolution?<p>You might not hear about it all that much because it isn't cool to blog about it, but doesn't it make sense that women make less money when, on average, it costs more to hire them?<p>This isn't about right or wrong, it's math.<p>&#62; Yes, social responsibility is a bitch for the individual businessman. Boo hoo hoo. - henrikschroder<p>Social responsibility for a business is to provide goods to the public through voluntary exchange while adhering to the non-aggression principle. Every other benefit should be provided by personal savings, family support, and voluntary donation. If you really want forced help to new mothers or other "disadvantaged" people then provide it by the state where the costs are transparent. The people hurt most by these policies are women who do not want to be mothers.<p>&#62; But for society as a whole, these things are good. - henrikschroder<p>I disagree. These interventionist practices increase tension between subcultures. They turn the world into an "us" vs "them" environment, where it would be more optimal to have a "me" and "you" environment.<p>For example: Affirmative action. Many blacks that get into Harvard and graduate are treated as sub-students by employers like major banks. The reason is that by definition they have, on average, poorer standings when they enter university. A black person that truly deserved to get into Harvard is indistinguishable from one that got there only after the bump from affirmative action. Employers remembering their time at Harvard recall that the black people in there class, while smart, were not of the same caliber as the rest of the class on average.<p>Furthermore, since affirmative action shifts the whole bell curve to the right, blacks are disproportionally more likely to drop out of university, since they are likely the least academically qualified to be there. This creates further racism as over the years professors tend to note that the blacks they teach tend to drop out.<p>Another example: Social Security. While the baby boomers were all working they enjoyed some of the lowest rates around. Now forward projections show that the US is unable to meet its SS obligations. Again turning it into "us" vs "them" (Gen X/Y/Z vs Baby Boomers).<p>&#62; Long maternity (and paternity!) leave is good for the children that will one day grow up and become productive members of society. Having laws around parental leave preventing discrimination means that society doesn't have to deal with paying unemployment welfare for women around 30, and having a hard time re-integrating them into the workforce at 40. Instead this cost is spread out among all the companies in the form of employment laws. - henrikschroder<p>People make choices. My choice may be to work until I have enough money to where I can earn enough interest passively while I go to Africa and join Engineers without Borders. Or my choice might be to have children. Either way, my productivity, savings, and future goals need to be harmonized for my plans to come to fruition.<p>Most responsible, productive people find it very easy to return to the workforce. Sometimes they are a step down or two (as in the case of my mother, who was a former research manager at IBM before she had my brother and me) but if their skills haven't eroded, they quickly gain back, and even exceed their position (she's now fairly high up at AT&#38;T managing the internet pipes between Asia and the Americas, as well as VPN services to huge companies like Siemens).<p>If the problem that right to return to work solves is post child rearing un/underemployment, and the solution is to stem from the government, then the government should set up organizations that empower employment seeking mothers, not coerce organizations to hire them again.<p>Furthermore, I've never met any business owner that didn't want to rehire a former staff member after they have had their maternity leave. The only time I've seen someone lean on that law was when they knew they were going to get fired (written up twice out of three times) so they had a child to reset the write-up policy.<p>&#62; I understand that all businesses wish to have a workforce consisting only of young well-educated males that are never sick, never take vacations and work lots of overtime, but there's a cost to getting that, and almost all businesses forget, or refuse to understand the value society provides to them. You want a workforce? Sure, it's gonna cost you, both in corporate taxes, and in social responsibility by employing less desireable individuals. Tough shit, pay up.<p>First off, most businesses do not want a workforce of men like me. Young, well-educated, male, lots of OT. We're too much like cowboys. We hate process. We hate meetings. We might be great at startups, but we are terrible in most other organizations, and yet most of us don't even know it.<p>As for the cost, "that is what the money is for" if it is citizens that want to be educated. Citizens that want to build roads. Citizens that want to have a safe and peaceful place to live and work. Citizens that want to buy products in an open market. Then those citizens will vote for those things. If you want to tax and impose rules on corporations then extend them the right to vote. No taxation without representation and all that (ironically, this is why governments are taken over by lobbyists, since the defense for having lobbyists was that the government makes rules that impact corporations and that corporations need "sway" in congress to protect their interests). Otherwise, recognize that the products that you use are brought by corporations to you, something most people forget.<p>&#62; When you spend 3000 Euros to hire someone who nets 1500 Euros, the difference is not "stolen" by the government, it's what you pay to have access to a pool of highly educated potential employees who get free(ish) health care, childcare, pensions that you as an employer don't have to worry about. - mtts<p>It depends on how it has been "spent". From the employer's perspective income tax should be none of his concern. If the citizens vote for a 50% income tax then that is what they should see on their payment stub.<p>&#62; Being from Europe originally and having lived in Silicon Valley now for more than 10 years, I did the math on comparative taxes. In the end, it's a wash. If you take into account everything. I make more money in the US. But my retirement costs are higher. And by the time I put two kids through college (college is free in some European countries), it basically balances the extra cash I made over a 20-year career. - alain94040<p>I did the math from Ontario, Canada to Texas a couple years ago. Even with a 10k bump in pay and full benefits, it was a wash. America pays a lot of taxes.<p>&#62; I propose a new law for Hungary saying that every company with more than 10 employees should have the same percentage of female/male as that of the population or in special cases (like with IT) that of the field at universities. This would stop some companies profiting from healthy 30 year old single men, and then throw them away like rags once they start feeling the pressure or want children. - hmottestad<p>That would be disastrous. Special cases governed by whom? Elected officials? There is about another 500 pages of laws. Logging towns, IT, Nurses, flight attendants, basketball players, elementary teachers, the list goes on and on.
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mekokaover 13 years ago
Don't blame businesses, don't blame women. Blame governments that refuse the responsibilities of taking hard, but necessary decisions, because they're afraid it'll cost them votes. They instead play shady games that only <i>appear</i> to resolve issues, when all they do is to force/allow both businesses and people to dabble in gray areas.<p>Let's speak hypothetically. Let's say we're a government that sees that we have too many expenses and as a result have very high taxes. Yet, we still have some unresolved social issues for which we have no budget, such as maternity programs and 50+ employment protection (yes, these should be state responsibilities, no reason to offload it to businesses). We could decide to reshuffle our current programs to make room for these, but that would certainly means cutting into some other established programs (unpopular decisions = no no in politics). Alternatively, we could yet again openly increase taxes, at the risk of looking even more expensive than neighboring countries and losing even more businesses (no no). We will do neither, instead we'll come up with laws that makes us look good with the people (3 years maternity, ensured reemployment, 50+ protection, all bankrolled by businesses), while allowing employers to find loopholes (discrimination).<p>The issues themselves remain unresolved and everybody goes home happy.
hmottestadover 13 years ago
I always say. A country can be valued by how it protects it's weakest.<p>I wish people would realize that in a society we should all work together rather than have the strong huddle in a little pile and point and laugh at the weak or needy.<p>I propose a new law for Hungary saying that every company with more than 10 employees should have the same percentage of female/male as that of the population or in special cases (like with IT) that of the field at universities. This would stop some companies profiting from healthy 30 year old single men, and then throw them away like rags once they start feeling the pressure or want children.<p>To give incentive to the law I propose giving higher tax to those companies not following the laws and increasing them at an exponential rate yearly :)
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jan_gover 13 years ago
The thing (in many European countries) is that government doesn't 'steal' your money, but that out of every salary you have to pay for many different things. Income tax is only one aspect.<p>For those interested, this is the reality in my country, Slovenia, which borders Hungary (I may have botched some numbers regarding taxation, but the principle behind calculations stands):<p>1. Out of every monthly salary you pay: income tax, state/public pension fund, health insurance and also a small tax (&#60;1%) called parental security.<p>2. A woman or a man may take up to 12 months of parental leave, which is fully paid by the state. The government uses money from 'parental security' tax to pay for this privilege. It works, because at any given moment there are many,many more employees not on parental leave than those on parental leave.<p>3. A woman is entitled to sick leave during pregnancy if her doctor makes such decision. So it may well be that she is absent for two years from her job. And it is also true that many women abused this privilege simply by convincing their doctors that they 'cannot perform on the job while pregnant'. A few years ago there's was a sort of clampdown to this practice by tightening the control on the doctors' decisions. So it's not that pervasive anymore.<p>4. A woman is also entitled to reduced workday (only 4 hours instead of 8) while her child is under 6. Her salary is of course halved, but state covers her pension fund as if she worked 8 hours. Many women don't decide to use this option, simply because a halved salary puts a lot of strain to majority of families' incomes.<p>5. Regarding firing workers: similarly to Hungary it's very difficult to fire someone and almost impossible to fire pregnant women or old people. Therefore, majority of people under 35 don't have regular contracts, but they work via independent contracts or the so-called self-employment companies (you establish a company in which you are a sole employee and then go work to another company which pays you via your small company). Needless to say, job security is practically non-existant if you aren't on regular contract.<p>6. Progressive income tax is also here, however it's not as brutal as in Hungary. Lower salaries (&#60;1k euros) are actually not taxed that much. The problem is only that the highest tax bracket (41%) comes already at 2k euros and that hits middle class the most. We, skilled professionals, are usually complaining the most about this fact. There are discussions to change this taxation in order to stem the brain-drain. It's also important to know that progressive taxation is applied on 'past-the-post' principle: e.g. you are taxed 41% only for your income that goes over a certain amount. This means that if your salary is 2k euros, you'll be taxed 41% only on income past 1.5k euros, that is 500 euros will be taxed 41%, 1.5k euros 27%.<p>7. Grey economy/tax evasion is certainly a problem, however the tax bureau is becoming more and more powerful and it's connected with banks. It's actually not that easy to cheat anymore. That goes for majority of people/businesses, richest top 5% still game the system by moving the money to Cyprus/Luxemburg shell companies and so on, but this can't really be helped unless it's solved on EU level.<p>Ok, I'll stop now :-). If you have any further questions, then do ask.
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3amover 13 years ago
I submitted a post about this at one point, but Hungary is going through really terrible cultural and political troubles. I really feel for the Hungarian people - in that context, the frustration in this post makes much more sense.
GigabyteCoinover 13 years ago
Is it just me or does this writer have an incredibly pessimistic view on his own workers?<p>Re [sic]: "they will just steal my ideas...", "women will take 6 year vacations (out of spite?)", etc.
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alain94040over 13 years ago
Being from Europe originally and having lived in Silicon Valley now for more than 10 years, I did the math on comparative taxes.<p>In the end, it's a wash. If you take into account <i>everything</i>. I make more money in the US. But my retirement costs are higher. And by the time I put two kids through college (college is free in some European countries), it basically balances the extra cash I made over a 20-year career.<p>Of course, for any given situation (single, dual income no kids), your results will vary. But I'd argue that a household with 2 kids is fairly common.
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Georgiyover 13 years ago
In Russia if you don't minimize taxation with tricks and do it straight, you pay like 1,2$ for each 1$ your company makes. So mostly companies aims for super profitable niches, like selling chinese shit with 1000-5000% margin.
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leakover 13 years ago
This was a really long, enjoyable article. My question is, how does the company that he works for manage to pay him enough to buy a 90k flat? Are they shaddy like the other companies he described? Is he shaddy and not paying his taxes? How did his employer manage to do it and why can't he just follow that path?
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16sover 13 years ago
I had a female boss once. She said the exact same thing about not hiring women because they get pregnant.<p>I'm a man in the U.S.A. We don't have all of the laws as described in this article (most of us can be fired for any reason at any time). We're on our own. My wife got 4 weeks leave when she gave birth and that was at 50% of her normal income. Then she went back to work (and governments wonder why births are declining).<p>Anyway, I was shocked that my boss felt that way about women employees and because she was so matter of fact about it. She didn't have children herself and was past child-bearing age. She was very successful (several master degrees and a very wealthy husband). She was one of the best managers I ever had. But basically, she was a woman who would not hire other women.
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zdwover 13 years ago
Simple solution - gender equality for time off related to pregnancy. Paternity leave for the same length of time.
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kcimaover 13 years ago
Governments like the one described in this article remind me of a massive monolithic PHP program where all the functionality is lumped into a single blob of spaghetti code. Ugh.<p>The negative impact of government regulations like this are proved by reducing the size of a company to one.<p>Example: if you start a business, and hire yourself as the first employee, should you be forced to give yourself 3 years off for maternity leave?<p>Of course you could never do this. It would kill your business instantly.<p>Just like the Unix philosophy of writing programs that do one thing and do it well. Society functions better when we have many smaller social institutions with focused roles.<p>Government doesn't need to do everything. There are plenty of other social constructs that have proven more capable of providing many of society's needs.<p>Governments should stick to the task of protecting individual liberty.<p>Businesses should stick to the task of providing quality and innovative goods and services.<p>Family, community, churches and private charity should stick to the task of taking care of those less fortunate.<p>We as programmers and developers can help improve society by demanding that (like our small but beautiful software), social institutions stick to singular responsibilities to which they are most suited.
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blagoover 13 years ago
What struck me was the premise of the article. Creating a startup company by selling your house is no walk in the park in any country. I can see a similar article written about the US. Quit whining, there are other ways. If there isn't a well developed capital market in Hungary, move somewhere else. Even in the States, there is only one silicon valley and people move there. A big part of the allure: access to capital.
viandanteover 13 years ago
I would just add that you can make money with such a system, you only need to find a business with more added value (difference between cost and price). And this brings to a whole lot of other topics such as if it is fair for a State to raise the bar in such way, so that less added value businesses simply cannot exist, if this improves growth and unemployment in the long run (I don't think so). Etc.
rabbleover 13 years ago
For what it's worth, the same basic setup is in place in Latin America. Brazil the effective cost is 2x the take home pay for people as well. Maternity leaves are much shorter, and you can fire somebody, you just need to pay a hefty severance. As somebody else mentioned, the way most companies work is to have each developer with their own tiny company.
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lizzardover 13 years ago
This is why we need better legal and financial structures to create co-operative, worker-owned businesses.
danbmil99over 13 years ago
This is so, so true. Whether through pure rational amoral choice, or subconsciously, every employer knows that some employees come with a hidden extra cost.<p>In the US, maternity (+paternity) isn't crazy in most states, and I suspect that's not a major issue. However, the fact that anyone but a white male has potential cause to sue if fired (due to their ability to claim gender or race discrimination), is a subtle but insidious reason to think twice about hiring a woman or person of color.<p>The truth is that these sort of market-distorting regulations, while possibly well intended, frequently end up hurting the people they are designed to help.
mavelikaraover 13 years ago
Sounds like a place where businesses are actively discouraged. I wonder how the guy who (hypothetically) buys his €90K apartment made his money? Probably from running a €9/hr shop under-reporting revenues.
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exorover 13 years ago
I run a business and could relate so strongly, I registered for HN just to comment: this is why I find it so difficult to hire locally in the U.S. - the incentives make it so much easier to offshore work.
digitalengineerover 13 years ago
The country of Hungary is almost broke. It's big, bloated government and corruption that's the cause. Hell, the guy's post reads like Atlas Shrugged and he's John Galt. He's "stopping the motor of the world" If you haven't read it, have a look: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged</a>
ricardobeatover 13 years ago
&#62; It's only Hungary that is so fucked up<p>That's because you're only looking at Europe. Come to Brazil for a show (minus the huge maternity leave).
zeynalovover 13 years ago
"Many of my employees would only come to work for me to learn my business secrets and to steal my clients."<p>For that issue there is a non-compete contract <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause</a>
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lalitmover 13 years ago
pathetic reasons for not hiring women.
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hodbbyover 13 years ago
Although each country has its own rules (maternity leaves, vacations, VAT, etc...) but the problems are common share to all of us. Great post!
WhatsHisNameover 13 years ago
Based on the discussions I can't help but wonder how many people here recognize that this article was written for Hungary and not the USA?
sirwittiover 13 years ago
[EDIT]: if you downvote, please explain why.<p>i understand that depending on your country it maybe hard to create good and profitable companies. i'm from austria, europe btw.<p>but on the other hand what to do with women and old people? i personally hate the idea of selecting employees this way. if nobody hired old people and women, someone, propably the state (read: everybody) had to pay for those people.<p>for me this boils down to a greater question: how to deal with work/life/family?<p>anybody here from a country with innovative ways of handling this?
OpieCunninghamover 13 years ago
<i>1- The competition sells the same service, but illegally, under really crappy circumstances, charging €9 per hour. They simply pocket the money, without even issuing an invoice, it doesn't even include the VAT. They don't have to take any responsibility, there are no warranties, they officially don't even do anything, there's not even an official, legal trace of their existence. They don't have to rent an office, hire an accountant. By doing this 5 hours a day, they can easily make €1,000. They would point their middle fingers to my €760 job offer, where they wouldn't be allowed to do crappy work, but show up in time every day and meet very high professional standards in their work, they wouldn't be allowed to defraud the customers, and if they did, they would be fired.</i><p>If your business plan calls for entering a market where the going hourly rate (legal or not) is 9 and you want to charge 37, your business plan is seriously flawed to the degree that every other explanation you've provided for not starting the business is moot. You have no business plan and therefore you won't hire anyone because you have no business. Find a new market.<p><i>2- The competition would do smear campaigns against my company. I would have to face anti-capitalist propaganda, I would be seen as a greedy asshole who charges €37 for what they charge €9, I would be an enemy of the nice Hungarian people, while others work honestly for the fraction of my price...</i><p>Without knowing what business you're talking about, it's hard to view this complaint as anything more than irrational defeatism.<p><i>3- Many of my employees would only come to work for me to learn my business secrets and to steal my clients. They would lure them by lying that they will get the same value and quality of service, but at the fraction of the price. After they stole enough clients, they would deliberately cause a lot of harm to my company to get themselves fired. They would then go to court, stating that I fired them illegally, and they would win the case. In the meantime, they would of course work happily for the stolen clientele, that has cost me a fortune to build up. And of course they would be offended. They would trumpet on all kind of forums, that they have worked for my company, they know what they're talking about. Not only it is very expensive, but the service is a piece of crap too.</i><p>Granted, I'm entirely unfamiliar with Hungarian employment law, but this also sounds like irrational defeatism, or at least a failure on your part to understand best practices in documenting employee behavior. In addition, why doesn't this cataclysmic issue affect the 9/hour competition?<p><i>4- Complaining about all this wouldn't help, no one would give a flying fuck.</i><p>Complaining about real issues is one thing. Complaining about the market when your business plan is pie-in-the-sky and everything and everyone is out to get you is quite another.
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swahover 13 years ago
That's pretty much the same reason why Milton Friedman is against a minimum wage stipulated by state.
dreamdu5tover 13 years ago
Why are businesses forced to pay for maternity leave, and not taxpayers?
mcantelonover 13 years ago
&#62;our customers would pay €37 / hour for our service.<p>That seems low.
dr_winover 13 years ago
my solution: get into business where you can hire machines, not people + outsource the rest.
factorizerover 13 years ago
people like these are what class struggle is for, amirite?
mp76over 13 years ago
The links below present the governmental spending over the last 100 years or so: - this is partly in Romanian partly in English, but you should get the point: <a href="http://www.logec.ro/2011/12/12/ultima-prezentare-a-lui-leszek-balcerowicz-despre-cum-pune-statul-frana-cresterii-economice/" rel="nofollow">http://www.logec.ro/2011/12/12/ultima-prezentare-a-lui-lesze...</a> - this is for US only: <a href="http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/us_20th_century_chart.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/us_20th_century_chart.ht...</a><p>What these tell me in simple words is that, more and more, some smart asses are taking decisions on our money. I really can't understand people arguing this as a good think as I can't understand how 300-1000 (representing government and parliement) persons do know better than we what we need. This trend is taking more and more from our rights to decide how, when and what we need. It also reduce the incentives to perform (as Jakab Andor put it in his article) and increase the stimulus for free rides. It also increase the chances of monopolies to develop with all the disadvantages that these are bringing (as a side note, by Misses these are the only real monopolies). Unfortunately, under current conditions, I don't believe this trend will change any time soon and we (both US and EU) have a good chance of becoming socialists with democratic hats in the next 50 years or so. This unless some major shift happens, but most probably this won't be a nice and quiet change. And, frankly, I'm not sure what freaks me out more: going in this direction or hopping for a sudden shift.<p>Secondly, I think discrimination per se is wrong and not productive. However, there are two contradictory types of laws that together increase the cost for a company: the ones that punish discriminations and the ones that adds taxes or additional costs for complying them. This leads to a natural behavior from the business side to reduce their cost. So, in this case I don't believe we are talking about discriminations per se, but about reducing costs in order to compete in a given market. In this respect, I totally agree with him. Whenever this conditions appears there's a good chance to create a black market. The size might differ from country to country based on culture, public enforcing power, the level o burden brought by regulation, but it will exist at some extent.<p>Coming back to the example with pregnant women, I don't think it's fair to say that we as a society want to stimulate birth, but "you" should bear the cost. It would be much fair to have this done on the society cost not on a particular business that have this case… for example, not by making the employer keep the job (or bear any other costs), but by supporting women until they get a job and perform additional activities to increase their changes to get a job. I'm not saying this is what I would recommend, but I think it's much better than the alternative.<p>However, I couldn't stop noticing that Jakab Andor only mentions to ways of doing business (besides the "do nothing" option): struggle with a regular business model with a small margin or cheat. These are both sadly choices. I think he missed the "think bigger", at higher margins, be faster or smarter approach.
tbsdyover 13 years ago
Good. I wouldn't want to work for you, after all you seem to spend more time writing about why you want to fire me than how to make money!
georgieporgieover 13 years ago
This guy won't ever hire anyone because all he does is imagine the worst possible outcome for a given situation with no eye toward actual likelihood or his own ability to select a good candidate. Good luck with that attitude, 'entrepreneur'.
nestlequ1kover 13 years ago
This guy is a complete asshole. Why is this #1 on HN?
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teycover 13 years ago
While what he says may be true, without employees, his business can't scale. What he is describing is the difficulty of startups competing against established competitors who have a reliable source of revenue. In many countries, smaller businesses get some form of exemption.
NHQover 13 years ago
More and more you are compelled to own the corporation that represents you in business. So we can get around onerous government regulation. We are taxed to pay for the private-public crony-capitalism complex. It may be costly or unconscionable for me to hire you--or to be hired and paid as an individual taxpayer--and let that money go freely into corruption. But we can hire the other's company. How your company uses its money and treats its employees is your business.
orbitingplutoover 13 years ago
What a douche.<p>Guess what? People are messy. But more importantly, people are valuable.<p>The author can whine all he likes. But really, try getting something done without them. Oh, wait, he says he's not going to even try... why are we reading this?
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