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The art of knowing when to quit

212 pointsby PebblesRoxover 2 years ago

26 comments

eductionover 2 years ago
One of the most nonsensical things I have read on here in a long time.<p>Software is not like a tv show or a stand up comedy set or an album. It is not a cultural artifact. It is machinery.<p>We don’t really get bored of a bread slicer. A school bus does not become tiresome. “My french press, it lacks its initial spark!”<p>Machines break, or fall behind evolving requirements (e.g. the bus only takes leaded gas). These are <i>functional</i> shortcomings. The idea of somehow withdrawing a functional useful piece of software from society does not make much sense. There are copies out there, first of all. What are you going to do, hunt them all down? You can stop maintaining it but in many cases, you can’t even prevent other people from working on it. Do you think even Larry Ellison could kill the Oracle database?
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TazeTSchnitzelover 2 years ago
Renato Carosone (singer of <i>Tu vuò fà l&#x27;americano</i>) quit at his peak:<p>&gt; At the height of his career, Carosone announced his retirement from music in 1960. He felt that the advent of Rock and roll had the consequence of making his swing, big-band sound no longer popular: &quot;I&#x27;d rather retire now on the crest of the wave, than being tormented later by the idea of rock and roll wiping away all that I have achieved in so many years of hard work&quot;.<p>(<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Renato_Carosone#Retirement" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Renato_Carosone#Retirement</a>)<p>That quote has stuck with me.
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PragmaticPulpover 2 years ago
&gt; It feels like our culture’s impulse is to wring every last cent possible out of any creative endeavor — or at least leave open the possibility for more from the outset.<p>It&#x27;s easy to criticize other people for wanting to ride their success after they&#x27;ve peaked<p>But I can&#x27;t really blame them. We only get so many big wins in our lifetime. When someone hits on something successful, riding it as far as they possibly can makes a lot of sense.<p>Some people get lucky and hit success with different ventures throughout their lives, but I suspect most successful people may only get a small number of opportunities to capitalize on. Seize them while you can. Ignore the critics.
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yawnxyzover 2 years ago
I think there&#x27;s a big difference between &quot;quitting&quot; and &quot;finishing up &#x2F; wrapping up&quot; in terms of walking away from something.<p>&quot;Quitting&quot; to me implies &quot;abandonment&quot; or leaving before you&#x27;re mentally ready to leave. For example closing a startup or product because of a lack of product market fit, or stopping a knitting project because you don&#x27;t have time for it, but really want to finish it.<p>&quot;Wrapping up&quot; to me means the thing has reached its natural end, and you&#x27;re happy to leave. For the startup or product, it could mean you&#x27;ve hit your &quot;one year anniversary&quot; of trying to see if you could make it while giving your best shot. For the knitting project, it might mean you&#x27;ve found more fun projects (or hobbies) and you don&#x27;t have time&#x2F;effort&#x2F;energy to pour into the project anymore.<p>In the end though there&#x27;s just a subtle mental shift to how you think about the thing you&#x27;re working on, and really it comes down to your mental model, incentive, and amount of &quot;closure&quot; you&#x27;ve given it.
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jrochkind1over 2 years ago
The OP is in part a reflection on the sunset of the Go Gorilla package. The blog post about <i>that</i> which it links to at the end is very much worth a read (I didn&#x27;t know about it, or the fate of the Gorilla package, before getting linked to it here), and I&#x27;d actually love to see an HN thread about THAT one!<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;onengineering.substack.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;there-is-no-secure-software-supply" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;onengineering.substack.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;there-is-no-secure-soft...</a><p>Looks like that&#x27;s been submitted to HN, but never got traction.<p>It has the somewhat misleading title &quot;There is no secure software supply-chain,&quot; which probably didn&#x27;t help it&#x27;s HN votes on previous submissions. It&#x27;s really about the maintainers deciding to sunset Gorilla, in the context of that being a good idea to prevent it from becoming an insecure untrustworthy dependency, but more than that too. I found it a very thought-provoking read, and would love to hear others responses to it, including folks from Go community but also on the general issues.
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SeanLukeover 2 years ago
&gt; That movie was pretty good, but it would’ve been great if it had been thirty minutes shorter.<p>For me the canonical example of a movie that didn&#x27;t know when to quit was <i>A.I. Artificial Intelligence</i>. There were at least four points in the movie when I firmly thought to myself, this would be a good point to end the movie. And then the movie just ... kept on going. On and on and on. I understand that Spielberg took it upon himself to remain faithful to the original Kubrick&#x2F;Watson treatment, but you can just hear him screaming in the background &quot;can&#x27;t we just end here?&quot; as well.
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Swizecover 2 years ago
A really good book on this topic I recently read: Quit, by Annie Duke.<p>The book boils down to <i>&quot;Calculate EV of your decision, try not to fall prey to sunk cost fallacy&quot;</i>. But it makes the lesson really sink in which is nice.<p>My favorite bit was her sharing the research that <i>you cannot avoid sunk cost fallacy</i>. Humans don&#x27;t work that way it seems. What you can do instead is to pre-commit to quitting when certain conditions are met.
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adenozineover 2 years ago
I&#x27;ve told some young people in mentor&#x2F;mentee situations before: Knowing when to quit is a useful skill ONLY IF you also possess superior judgement about what you might stand to gain by remaining, and data to support the decision either way. If you know you can land the better job, or even have a better offer, THAT is the situation where you need to know when to quit. If you have no leads and you&#x27;re trying to break into a competitive space but could probably climb the ladder where you are up a few rungs in 2-5yrs, then sometimes it just pays to stay and grind it out a little.<p>I think sometimes uncertainty is misrepresented a little bit. I&#x27;ve been blessed to be able to make my own prices and so I don&#x27;t really have to job-hop, but any moron with a brain can see that it&#x27;s better over a long period of time to change jobs more often rather than less. It&#x27;s just good sense at this point. Still, with that being said, when you&#x27;re facing incomplete data, it&#x27;s easy to let anxiety overrule the fact that your present employment, shitty as it may seem, shitty as it may feel to punch in and see the smug, passive, whatever it is you hate about your coworkers&#x27; faces, it&#x27;s a steady job.<p>I&#x27;ve made mistakes where I jumped too soon, and where I&#x27;ve jumped too late or not at all. Personally, I regret the ones where I jumped too soon a lot more because I associate those decisions with low resilience to frustration I had, and low discipline to exert my patience further. Maybe I&#x27;m wrong, but looking back on several decades of fucking things up in professional environments, that&#x27;s the way I feel.<p>If anybody is reading this and thinking about how much they hate their jobs, I could not more strongly advise you to hold the course for now unless you have an absolute certainty in hand, if you&#x27;re in the United States especially. I&#x27;ve lived in DC for many years now, and it feels more tense and nervous now than 2002 and 2008-9 put together.<p>Free your mind, do what you have to do, but don&#x27;t jump ship with clouds like these on the horizon. Just wait a little bit, and see what happens first.
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teuobkover 2 years ago
The key to knowing when to when to quit is being financially able to quit in the first place.<p>A lot of people get stuck and are unable to afford to quit.
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hprotagonistover 2 years ago
An epitome of this, i think, is Bill Watterson.<p>He said what he set out to say. And then he stopped. And his work is so much stronger for it.
kris_waytonover 2 years ago
<i>&quot;It feels like our culture’s impulse is to wring every last cent possible out of any creative endeavor&quot;</i><p>This rings true to me. There even seems to be more dredging up of other people&#x27;s past creative work and trying to wring more money out of them.
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ralphcover 2 years ago
On The Tonight Show, Carson explained to guest, Roseanne Barr, that he wanted to quit while still on top of his game. He shared, “Beverly Sills, who&#x27;s a wonderful opera singer, once said, &#x27;I would much rather have people say to me at a party, Beverly, why did you quit singing, rather than why didn&#x27;t you quit? &#x27;”
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pygarover 2 years ago
Every TV show&#x2F;Movie franchise has two endings, when the story ends and when the money ends. Just stop watching when you&#x27;re done. It might even send a signal. There is no prize for watching it all. We don&#x27;t need to watch every Star Wars movie ever made.
deathanatosover 2 years ago
IDK that the analogy to jobs works. When I&#x27;ve quit, I&#x27;ve largely left what I wanted to accomplish unaccomplished. I&#x27;m quitting, partly because it&#x27;s never going to happen — there will never come a day during which the team is adequately staffed to really tackle the tough problems that exist before it. (But more often than not, for far more Maslow&#x27;s Hierarchy reasons than that.) And that&#x27;s been true at every single employee I&#x27;ve had, without fail, without regards to the team size or how bright (or dull) its members are. The day to day &quot;must haves&quot; from people outranking us will forever, at any enterprise, be prioritized above the desires of the people who understand the system.<p>And I see this when I see people far smarter and more capable than me job hop, too. They&#x27;re not leaving fulfilled, they&#x27;re leaving burnt out, unable to bring their dreams to fruition.<p>Dilbert resonates well with most readers. &quot;What color do you want that database?&quot; still gives me a chuckle. It will forever be mauve.<p>Firefly never got a second season. OTOH, how many will The CW&#x27;s &quot;The Flash&quot; get?
SLWWover 2 years ago
I don&#x27;t uh.... i don&#x27;t get it.<p>What was the point? Yes things come to an end sometimes, how is completely tearing support out from under anyone who uses a framework just like ending Seinfeld?<p>Can you still watch Seinfeld? Can you still rewatch your favorite parts, upload clips with commentary to YT as a docu-series of some sort? Yes and yes.<p>Keeping a repo up is just about the best thing you can do. I just don&#x27;t understand why you thought to say nothing but &quot;quitting is a thing&quot;.
codazodaover 2 years ago
I’ve also seen and been impressed with the opposite. I think the singer, Jimmy Buffet, is a really good example. He created a few albums that became hits (or sleeper hits maybe) and then he rode the wave well into retirement. In a way, he did quit, I guess. For years he didn’t make new songs, just singing and merchandising the ones that were hits. I have a lot of respect for someone who took a single album hit and turned it into a life-long career.<p>I realize that I may be mistaken about his career. Maybe he continued to make songs, but this is what his career feels like to me.<p>Edit: I changed the word “money” to “songs”, which was my original intent. I realize he’s merchandised those early songs into an amazing franchise.<p>I’ve been to two Jimmy Buffet concerts in Vegas and will be at a third in a couple months. Parrotheads are crazy.
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geraldwhenover 2 years ago
I’ll quit when my finances allow me to, and not a second before OR after.<p>When your job is sufficiently easy or non-stressful, and the time commitment is agreeable, you should not quit.<p>Make hay while the sun shines, as they say. Work for me is like a fairly simple and low time commitment money faucet.
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ppeetteerrover 2 years ago
In the context of quitting something successful, why would you? As long as the marginal benefit meets or exceeds the benefit of doing something different (but potentially of higher risk), why not keep going? I understand the concept of the Sunk Cost fallacy, but the article is describing things that are actually successful!<p>Maybe from the consumer&#x27;s perspective, it seems bad that this thing you once loved is now mainstream or banal, but they can always quit consuming based on personal preference.<p>For instance, as the audience, I want all shows to be three seasons and a movie. As at the producer, I would milking a good idea to its last drop.
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ant1ozover 2 years ago
As a contractor choosing max 3 months contract after more than a dozens of quits. In my experience, 95% of tech team are disfunctional beyond repair. It pisses me off everytime, and I chose to let it go, stopping the energy hemoragy, and I usually take 2-3 months off, recharge. Now it&#x27;s been 18 months, no income, enjoying life in SEA. At the end of the day, month, year, decade, I own less, but my life is much more interesting than dealing with mediocre people who knows how to fake it very well, knowing they&#x27;ll never make it, happy to take the pay check.
maCDzPover 2 years ago
There is a new episode of the POD Freakconomics named “Is it bad to be a one hit wonder” and it touches this topic.<p>It’s a really good episode.<p>A book that also touches the same topic is Quit by Annie Duke.<p>One takeaway from the book is our bias against quitting. We should probably quit more often. So basically, if you are thinking about quitting, then you should already have quit, since there are biases working against the quitting decision.<p>I liked it because it made me view quitting in a new light. As a sign of strength.<p>I’ll finish with a quote from Homer Simpson: “It’s never too late to quit!”.
thrownawaydadover 2 years ago
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Optimal_stopping" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Optimal_stopping</a>
ChrisMarshallNYover 2 years ago
There&#x27;s ending something; then, there&#x27;s turning it over to a new team, and walking away.<p>I&#x27;ve done the latter. It&#x27;s not easy, but can really work out well.
PebblesRoxover 2 years ago
Reminds me of Bill Watterson.
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soumyadebover 2 years ago
Related and relevant question for software products: At what point we should say the product is DONE and no new features will be added. There will always be new customer requests for some weird corner case but there is a cost of adding every feature - engineering cost and complexity cost for the user.<p>Thinking for consumer products like Gmail etc but applies broadly.
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topkai22over 2 years ago
Knowing when to quit also means knowing what your objective is. Many of the OP’s examples have seem to have “make great art and gain status” as the objective. If your objective is “maximize income”, than your stopping point is well after where it is to make art or gain status.
sitkackover 2 years ago
A great lesson on knowing when to quit from Spongebob <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;vimeo.com&#x2F;445441493" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;vimeo.com&#x2F;445441493</a>