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You don't have to engage with people on the Internet

279 pointsby linusg789over 2 years ago

55 comments

cm2187over 2 years ago
When you are responding to a ridiculous take on something you are familiar with, you aren&#x27;t necessarily engaging with the author. I think you are 1) providing readers with a more useful angle, and 2) not giving the wrong impression to a candid reader that this take is somehow a consensus.<p>If it was in a 1:1 online conversation, I agree, it would be mostly pointless. But a forum is more like a public debate (provided the audience is an audience you vaguely care about).
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bryan_wover 2 years ago
Eh, I tried to take that view but then I started hearing those wrong pithy responses reflected back at me via my real life friends, which showed that their campaign worked.<p>Now I don&#x27;t argue to try to change the person&#x27;s mind, but rather to plant the seed of critical thinking that may help an onlooker find the truth.
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oddityover 2 years ago
I was fortunate to learn this from pointless internet flamewars early in my life. Understand why you&#x27;re in an argument and what you hope to accomplish by being in an argument. On the internet, it is usually very clear that you will accomplish nothing except maybe introduce receptive onlookers to a new idea, so the choice to minimize engagement is easy.<p>I think applying this has generally made me more successful outside of the Internet, too, by being more conscious about how I approach conflict. Unfortunately, in the less pseudonymous world where preconceptions and reputation have more weight, the advice also holds, but the calculus is a big mess. Arguments can have only downside risk, but you don&#x27;t have the option to disengage.
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julianeonover 2 years ago
I really struggle with this; to this day I haven&#x27;t found a good resolution.<p>I&#x27;d say by analogy you could also say: &quot;You don&#x27;t have to pursue people romantically.&quot; It&#x27;s really, really true: you don&#x27;t. No one will blame you for keeping to yourself. In many settings it may even be better (example: a club, where the club organizers find the drama caused by romantic entanglements annoying).<p>But there&#x27;s a problem behind this problem, which is: while it&#x27;s not necessary, if I act is if I don&#x27;t &#x27;need&#x27; to do it all (again: strictly true), that also causes problems.<p>Basically I have an impulse towards sex, and towards being social, which exists in a hard to measure but much-more-than-zero state. The social impulse in particular needs attention daily.<p>So - put that way - I kind of do have to engage. Because I work remotely I spend too long away from other people in my opinion to not engage socially whatsoever, during work hours.<p>Like I said, I struggle with this. But my middle-of-the-road position is that, while any individual act of engagement (like a comment) is expendable, the general behavior of seeking community on the Internet is something which I can accurately treat like a need (especially in the sense that, if I haven&#x27;t done it in hours, it&#x27;s time to do it).
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bluedinoover 2 years ago
Reddit is great because someone can says 1 + 1 = 3, get fifty upvotes, you can point out that it&#x27;s actually 2, get downvoted into oblivion, and then some other idiot will come along and say it&#x27;s 4
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alexwassermanover 2 years ago
I have the &quot;hide comments section&quot; turned on my ad blocker. Makes the internet a much nicer place in general on a lot of general news&#x2F;info type sites that aren&#x27;t explicitly for discussion (eg. HN, Reddit).<p>I was pretty excited a couple of years back when some bigger news sites explicitly turned off their comments saying they only generated distracting noise and added no value.<p>Then, after that I can rigorously filter what I see - on Reddit I have multireddits that I care about, and set those to Home using Apollo to browse, and I keep only generally positive sub-reddits in there.<p>I think there&#x27;s huge value in going out of you way to block negative noise in bulk. Same reason I deleted Facebook - don&#x27;t invite in the noise, and don&#x27;t engage with trolls.<p>It&#x27;s the same old strategy - the only way to win is not to play.
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ranger207over 2 years ago
My current theory about influencing people is that, for people already convinced of a position, small, indirect, and constant statements are more influential than large, direct, and infrequent (or frequent, for that matter) statements. eg, a bunch of people mentioning offhand over the course of a few years that they&#x27;re recycling is more influential than a big recycling lecture directed at a single audience. In that regard, small inaccuracies are important to counter in order to preserve a particular narrative. The current meme war around Russia&#x27;s illegal invasion of Ukraine is a great case study
Scubabear68over 2 years ago
I really like to debate issues. This leads to many problems on the modern internet.<p>I won’t go into all of them, but the biggest by far is when the real world and online world collide, and you encounter stakeholders not willing to work on a good-faith basis.<p>I live in a small town of around 6,000 people in NJ. Very rural, you have to drive 30+ minutes to get most anywhere. Yet our bucolic town is a hot bed of intrigue because a small but very vocal group of people have come to dominate online conversations. The local Facebook pages have become toxic. A regular stream of lies, false accusations, made up “threats” to the community, false narratives on school referendums, etc are propagated online in an effort to change the actual fiber of our towns.<p>Attempts to engage in good faith leads to the predictable results - name calling, doxxing, character assassination, fake posters. It escalates into stalking, obscene graffiti spray painted on driveways, etc. Facebook is far and away the biggest problem here.<p>The end result is many of the saner people have exited all the local Facebook groups. For me it’s sad that I am now less connected with what’s going on. But it is worth it for getting rid of the drama and stress.<p>Neighbors IRL can disagree (even radically) and still be neighbors. Neighbors on the Internet rapidly devolves into the unhinged and depraved and frankly immoral people (from a golden rule perspective) dominating every conversation.<p>Moderation would seem to be the answer, but hasn’t worked.
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TillEover 2 years ago
&gt; Even if you are a formal spokesperson for a company, you don&#x27;t have to engage.<p>This is key! At a lower level, if you&#x27;re modding a Discord server or whatever, you can ignore people, and if they become a real problem you can just ban them. You don&#x27;t need to engage with their drama, you don&#x27;t owe them anything.
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college_physicsover 2 years ago
There is no option but to engage with people on the internet. Its a new domain in which a new form of social life unfolds.<p>We are horrible at it because the rules of &quot;real&quot; life engagement, honed over millenia of civilization building don&#x27;t apply, but unless we figure out the new rules we miss out on something important.<p>The reason that after several decades of &#x27;online&#x27; we dont converge on something agreeable has much to do with the ever changing technical platforms, outside of the control of users, which seldom have this aspect as one of their driving concern.<p>From their perspective the cynical &quot;any engagement is good engagement&quot; reigns supreme
wruzaover 2 years ago
<i>It&#x27;s not worth the psychic damage</i><p>There’s no damage if you don’t take it or don’t look at it (in case of a toxic auditory).<p>My rule of thumb is: I’m not lazy to write a constructive-ish comment <i>and</i> there’s a good chance it could change, extend or represent some opinions <i>and</i> there’s still something left unsaid either itt or in general.<p>E.g. if I’m lazy, or it’s unlikely someone could benefit from reading it, or everything was already said in that thread or is assumed to be well-known, then I don’t engage.
docdeekover 2 years ago
The Serenity Prayer could easily be adapted to serve as a guide here: Grant me the serenity to accept the minds I cannot change, the courage to change the minds I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
revskillover 2 years ago
I learnt a lot from those comments though. You can be right or wrong, but it&#x27;s the lesson from engagement that matters for participants.<p>It&#x27;s your choice and it&#x27;s matter of taste. It&#x27;s never a hard rule.
faebiover 2 years ago
I see it as some kind of mental training, puzzle or fun game. Find and engage in an opposing view, no matter the topic. Of course, do that without being negative, sarcastic but positive and solution oriented. Try to expand the space of options and opinions. And for extremist left&#x2F;right politics, push it that far until nothing makes sense anymore, while confusing the author. And sometimes I learn something new from it. I think this does not work if you think you can&#x27;t be wrong. I&#x27;m wrong all the time and I accept it without hurting my ego.
Zababaover 2 years ago
&gt; Sometimes people will engage in performative angst in comments about companies as a way to signal they are part of the &quot;in-crowd&quot; that totally hates everything corporations have &quot;ruined&quot;. These views are not representative of the larger world. It is just them trying to get upvoted because they care about the internet point number.<p>I feel like this is close to another point that has been hard to learn for me too: often, when talking about something, people care more about the talking than the something, or at least they care more about the talking and less about the something than me. This is not a value judgement, I don&#x27;t think one way is &quot;better&quot; than the other, it&#x27;s just one of those things that can cause a lot of trouble when you don&#x27;t know about it.<p>It also helps not engaging with people. What usually attracts me when I engage with people that I don&#x27;t know very well is that they&#x27;re talking about something that I know, and thus I feel in a way involved in the conversation, I can contribute something. But when I see it through the lens of a group of people that know each others and just happen to talk about something that I know, it&#x27;s easier to let it go.<p>As a more general comment, I really appreciate this blog. There&#x27;s some variety in the subjects, the writing is engaging, sometimes there are cool technical tricks, sometimes interesting insights.
jmyeetover 2 years ago
&gt; You can just sit back and let people be wrong. Especially when it&#x27;s about your employer.<p>Here&#x27;s a better rule: don&#x27;t argue about, comment on, criticize or even defend your employer in public at all. No good can come of it. You&#x27;re almost never going to convince someone otherwise and the worst case is you find yourself quoted in the New York Times as &quot;employee of X&quot; (yes, I&#x27;ve seen this happen). Your employer isn&#x27;t your family. You&#x27;re not invested in how they&#x27;re perceived. Your relationship is transactional if they&#x27;re not paying you to represent them, don&#x27;t. They will pick you rname on a spreadsheet and fire you tomorrow to slightly improve their bottom line.<p>As for arguing with randoms you generally want to quickly identify which bucket someone falls into:<p>1. People who reasonably disagree; or<p>2. The &quot;my feelings matter more than your facts&quot; crowd. You cannot reason someone out of a position they didn&#x27;t reason themselves into.<p>IME you can quickly separate the two and as soon as someone is clearly in the second camp, just block them (on platforms you can) or stop responding (where you can&#x27;t). No good can come of it.<p>Furhter engagement can actually turn someone into a &quot;hater&quot;. They will follow you around, comment on everything you say and do and may go as far as mass reporting you. Don&#x27;t let them get that invested.
avgcorrectionover 2 years ago
I hope I never feel intrinsic motivation to defend my employer.
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musicaleover 2 years ago
Someone is <i>wrong</i> on the internet!
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sec400over 2 years ago
Follows the saying &quot;Never wrestle with a pig because you&#x27;ll both get dirty and the pig likes it.&quot;
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fortituded0002over 2 years ago
Great advice.<p>I have tried this often, while it is really useful, sometimes it isn&#x27;t enough. What I found more useful a good chunk of the time (on Facebook, Twitter, Reddit..) is to start blocking people. There are some people that are so far off the mark that what they say not only gets in the way, it actively erodes the quality of what&#x27;s out there. I&#x27;ve found it far more beneficial than just shrugging and moving on.
JanneVeeover 2 years ago
This is the main excuse for companies when they get flak for their anti-consumer behaviour, that the comments on the internet don&#x27;t matter. It is somehow rooted in emotions and&#x2F;or irrational status seeking through imagined Internet points. If people show up in the comments they could have something to say! I know that this is a place of terminally online people and we have seen sooo much bullshit in comments but we can&#x27;t turn a blind eye to some of the bullshit that big corporations pull and not tell people why we think it is wrong. One of the best examples is that I had to fight Intel fanbois defending software unlocks for CPU performance. It is anti-consumer behaviour where they are artificially segmenting the market to build fewer models. The car manufacturers are doing similar things now where they always put in heated seats in the car and tries to sell the ass heating as a software subscription... when I buy the car I&#x27;m paying for the heating coils in the seat and I should be able to turn them on at any time since I bought them.
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charles_fover 2 years ago
I like answering because it helps me clarify my thoughts.<p>I also like the comments on HN at least as much as the articles, and I like to contribute.
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geenewover 2 years ago
If there are T&#x27;s &amp; C&#x27;s I need to read before being permitted to talk to someone, I&#x27;ll probably just skip the whole thing. Which I guess lines up with the title of the article.
xyzelementover 2 years ago
You definitely don&#x27;t <i>have</i> to engage with anyone on anything, but if you want to see a change in the world, you have an opportunity to influence the bystanders with your knowledge.<p>I remember being at a party where two people got into an argument about abortion. It was exactly what you would imagine, a completely pointless exchange of rehashed ideas that the 10 people watching the conversation have heard a million times.<p>Then someone chimed in - not to argue but just to drop a fact they possessed that nobody else in the room knew. It didn&#x27;t change the arguers&#x27; minds but it took the other ten people aback like &quot;how come we heard this debate a 1000 times but this very important fact never gets mentioned?&quot;<p>So that random quip influenced 10 people on a very polarizing issue. That&#x27;s powerful.
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paulpauperover 2 years ago
It&#x27;s worth replying if someone gets a key detail wrong or simple misunderstanding and you can set record strait
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jsz0over 2 years ago
I found this out recently after being perm banned from Reddit for making too many dirty jokes. It was merely a creative writing exercise for me that I didn&#x27;t take seriously. Not being able to comment made me realize though I was subconsciously always looking for the worst most absurd filthy angle to setup the joke. So I probably enjoy using the site more now though I&#x27;m still annoyed at being targeted by moderators because most of my silly jokes were very well received and upvoted by actual users.
alxmngover 2 years ago
My father gave me sage advice: Choose your battles.
Havocover 2 years ago
&gt;&quot;in-crowd&quot; that totally hates everything corporations have &quot;ruined&quot;. These views are not representative of the larger world.<p>Is it though? Agree with overall sentiment expressed on not needing to engage but this part seems off.The mega corps ruined everything sentiment strikes me as quite pervasive throughout society.
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smilevideoover 2 years ago
There&#x27;s also a chance that you&#x27;re not even engaging with a person at all, but with a bot, so even less reason.
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galfarragemover 2 years ago
Nowadays I consciously try to do this even (or specially) on real life. People understimate how liberating is it.
genezetaover 2 years ago
FWIW: For people not reading tfa, note that while the title is wide and general, the actual concern expressed in the text is <i>much</i> more specific: It&#x27;s about not needing to argue in favour of your employer in public.
anonairover 2 years ago
Sadly (?), in some cultures lying, libel and profanity is not something normally expected even from anonymous strangers, so they basically believe most things on Twitter and Facebook. And applying critical thinking to every piece of info online is too much effort and time-consuming, so that is not practical for the unsophisticated.<p>May be there should be at least some effort to address &quot;realistic looking&quot; misinfo, so that the lack thereof could not be interpreted as avoiding to engage out of fear.
neonsunsetover 2 years ago
I may not have to but I <i>will</i>.
brundolfover 2 years ago
I sometimes notice my nervous system relax a bit when I log out of this website, because I know I won&#x27;t get sucked into anything (he writes on this website)
zh3over 2 years ago
&gt;There is no good way to add oxygen to a tire fire.<p>Combine it with hydrogen first and pour the resultant liquid on the fire (or silicon, and use the resultant solid).
gonzo41over 2 years ago
I think some of this boils down to people who are lonely and want some form of connection. -And, there be a good percentage of people in tech, especially in &#x27;visionary&#x27; companies that feel some for of identity fusion between they life they spend in their startups and the product the produced. It&#x27;s unhealthy.
2devnullover 2 years ago
If you hold things inside, in the long run it erodes your soul. Better to speak your mind and relieve the pressure. Often, by voicing opinions, our opinions change. We think, “oh gosh, cringe at what I said,” and then evolve. As Hemingway put it, “continence is the greatest foe to heresy.”
z_zetetic_zover 2 years ago
Watch Rick and morty s6e8 and you will see a great meditation on the topic.
dmjeover 2 years ago
Not expressing an opinion is the missing skill many people need to learn, particularly on social media where the medium is doing all it can to encourage people to get involved.<p>Being able to say “I just don’t know” or “I don’t have the necessary facts” or “this isn&#x27;t my area of expertise” or, better, to simply say nothing at all is something many “influencers” would do well to learn.<p>Just because you have 50million followers on some platform doesn’t mean you have the expertise to talk about vaccines or whatever the hot topic of the day happens to be.<p>Of course saying you don’t know requires a level of humility that many people simple don’t seem to have but hey, there you go.
recuterover 2 years ago
<i>queue hundreds of hn commentators</i>
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mgarfiasover 2 years ago
1000000% this.<p>Taken me years to learn to turn it off and walk away. Life is much better now.<p>Also, it often works in real life too
quickthrower2over 2 years ago
Interesting date format: M01 18 2023
rqtwteyeover 2 years ago
One thing I have noticed is that a lot of people who engage a lot on the internet turn from reasonable to argumentative and often outright mean. Examples I can think of right now are Jordan Peterson and Elon musk. I also have some friends that seem to have lost their minds and become zealots that like to score quick points by putting other people down.<p>It seems that engaging in social media, especially Twitter, is very unhealthy for people.
cookie_monstaover 2 years ago
No comment.
xracyover 2 years ago
Yeah, I do. &lt;&#x2F;s&gt;
renewiltordover 2 years ago
I do it primarily because I get a kick out of it. But it&#x27;s true, LLMs have obsoleted the average HN commenter. Though, to be honest, I think we could have done it much earlier.<p>Google =&gt; cancel products, spy, don&#x27;t update OS, no human support<p>Facebook =&gt; spy, Cambridge Analytica, ruined Oculus,<p>Apple =&gt; expensive, closed ecosystem, high rake<p>I think it would be cool, once we have speed to LLM inference high enough, for each person to receive a &quot;your comment was generated x times in 100 seeds by LLMs that were prompted by this headline&quot;.<p>This is the anti-Turing ratio: how botlike are you?
theredlancerover 2 years ago
Commenting because I can
navjack27over 2 years ago
It&#x27;s good advice.
throwifasdover 2 years ago
But it&#x27;s fun telling pretentious HNers that they they are wrong.
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blondinover 2 years ago
not knowing when to engage is as important as knowing when to do so. some people learn from their mistakes. some people don&#x27;t, they look for reasons that make them feel vindicated.
RHSman2over 2 years ago
Yes you do!!!
dredmorbiusover 2 years ago
A&#x2F;K&#x2F;A: &quot;You don&#x27;t have to attend every argument you&#x27;re invited to.&quot; (Sometimes seen as &quot;fight&quot;.) I&#x27;d run into this via Noah Friedman on the late, little-lamented Google+.<p>Discussion, online or off, is ultimately <i>serving some goal</i>. Online <i>mass</i> discussion is often some mix of tactical and strategic.<p>A late realisation of mine, having been engaged in online discussion since Usenet in the 1980s, is that there are two major divisions of online discussion: <i>dialectical</i>, which is aimed at understanding some greater truth, and <i>rhetorical</i>, which is typically engaged in partisan or ideological promotion. This is a tradition dating to <i>at least</i> the time of the Greeks, see Plato and his tirades against the Sophists, as well as Aristotle&#x27;s &quot;Sophistical Refutations&quot;, or as I prefer to describe it: &quot;Bullshit Arguments Which Must Die&quot;.<p>(There are of course numerous other modes of communication and their study is also of interest: narrative, phatic, persuasive, performative (where the speech act <i>itself</i> executes some function, as in swearing an oath or declaring &quot;I do&quot; in a marriage ceremony), descriptive, entertaining, distraction (as with much stage patter in legerdemain, or financial marketing), etc.)<p>It&#x27;s helpful to realise <i>what type of discussion</i> you&#x27;re entering into, as well as <i>what audiences exist</i> (there are often multiple). The audience is often <i>not</i> merely your interlocutor.<p>For a domain which has come to dominate media, I&#x27;ve found that people in the tech world are often highly dismissive of the field of communications study (and its antecedents in rhetoric and philosophy). &quot;Communications&quot; whilst a <i>popular</i> field of study when I was at uni was not seen as an especially <i>robust</i> or <i>challenging</i> one, a perception of my own I&#x27;ve somewhat come to regret.<p>Harold Lasswell proposed a five-element model of communications in the 1940s: 1) who 2) says what 3) in what channel 4) to whom 5) with what effect.<p>I&#x27;d add a sixth element: <i>with what intent</i>, though in practice <i>intent</i> is often subordinate to <i>effect</i> for numerous reasons, e.g., ascribing a single intent to a collective entity, unintended and unforeseen consequences, etc.<p>&lt;<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Lasswell%27s_model_of_communication" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Lasswell%27s_model_of_communic...</a>&gt;<p>There&#x27;s also the matter of understanding <i>mass</i> vs. <i>personal</i> communications, which can be particularly challenging to keep in mind on platforms in which <i>personal</i> exchanges between two parties are also (or can rapidly become) mass or at least <i>public</i> exchanges. (Failure to recognise this seems a frequently recurring source of friction on the Fediverse in particular, with various people asserting the right to speak publicly without others joining in on the discussion.) Simple human psychology makes coping with responses from multiple people, <i>even where that number is relatively low in comparison to a the larger community from which it emerges</i> is challenging. See for example many cases of performers and creators who don&#x27;t pay attention to general critics and criticism, which is to say, <i>even amongst people whose milieu is the field of mass communications, this can be hard</i>. No wonder it&#x27;s a challenge to mere mortals....<p>In a world of hot takes, memetic warfare, and frequently-encountered low-effort, low-comprehension responses, one tactic I&#x27;ve seen (and occasionally used) with some effect is to have and refine over time countermeasures which can be deployed with little effort or cognitive drain, but which effectively communicate a rebutting or countering message. A good example close at hand would be HN&#x27;s own moderation responses within threads, where many admonitions are frequently recycled, e.g., &quot;Please don&#x27;t post in the flamewar style&quot;.<p>&lt;<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;hn.algolia.com&#x2F;?dateRange=all&amp;page=0&amp;prefix=false&amp;query=by%3Adang%20%22Please%20don%27t%20post%20in%20the%20flamewar%20style%22&amp;sort=byPopularity&amp;type=comment" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;hn.algolia.com&#x2F;?dateRange=all&amp;page=0&amp;prefix=false&amp;qu...</a>&gt;<p>While I&#x27;ll often write dedicated responses to comments or posts (as here), I&#x27;ve also over time developed a few of my own specific rebuttals to commonly-encountered fallacies and myths, though I try not to post those so frequently that they become an annoyance. I&#x27;ll also refine thoughts on a specific topic over time (universal content syndication comes to mind) which would be an example of why engaging in <i>specific</i> arguments <i>can</i> prove useful <i>in those instances</i>.<p>I&#x27;m happy to do my part commit denial-of-attention attacks on tired takes as well though, and pay attention to what&#x27;s living rent-free in my consciousness.
invalidatorover 2 years ago
Obligatory XKCD: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;xkcd.com&#x2F;386&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;xkcd.com&#x2F;386&#x2F;</a><p>It&#x27;s solid advice.
deafpolygonover 2 years ago
Relevant XKCD: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;xkcd.com&#x2F;386&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;xkcd.com&#x2F;386&#x2F;</a>
shmdeover 2 years ago
Cyberbullying?? Pffft just turn off your computer.