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Norton's Dome

113 pointsby miobrienover 2 years ago

8 comments

keskivalover 2 years ago
The argument for time reversal assumes that the ball can reach the top of the dome in a finite time, while its speed becomes zero at that limit. Sure, you can calculate the kinetic energy needed to exactly reach the top like described, but would such a ball reach the top in a finite time, as it slows down in the process?<p>Edit: To answer my own question, the shape of the dome has been specifically chosen to avoid this problem, as described here:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;Physics&#x2F;comments&#x2F;2cueh3&#x2F;nortons_dome_a_simple_violation_of_determinism_in&#x2F;cjjmbfk?utm_medium=android_app&amp;utm_source=share&amp;context=3" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;Physics&#x2F;comments&#x2F;2cueh3&#x2F;nortons_dom...</a>
mjburgessover 2 years ago
I think there&#x27;s an easier thought experiment to generate non-determinism in classical mechanics without some continuity assumption:<p>Take a chaotic system (eg., the moon of one of our solar system planets) and let it evolve for some time, T. Track the position with coordinate X. Let T be large enough that the nth decimal place of X_T is significant to determining X_T+1.<p>If there is a discontinuity at the nth decimal place, then X_T+1 is not determined by X_T.<p>For quite observable T, n quickly becomes &quot;sub-quantum&quot;. So, if classical mechanics is deterministic, and describes nature, nature must be continuous at arbitary depth.<p>OR: *classical* mechanics is non-deterministic.
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layer8over 2 years ago
This blog post provides an interesting analysis: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.gruffdavies.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;12&#x2F;24&#x2F;newtonian-physics-is-deterministic-sorry-norton&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.gruffdavies.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;12&#x2F;24&#x2F;newtonian-physics-is...</a><p>The concluding paragraph:<p><i>Position, velocity and acceleration will be zero at t = 0 for every equation of polynomial form of order 3 and above, but non zero everywhere else. Particles following these trajectories move to and from an unstable equilibrium where Newton’s laws fail to be fully descriptive at the singular point t = 0 where the implied force is zero.</i>
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gowldover 2 years ago
This example assumes a physically impossible infinitely-sharp corner and an Zeno-paradoxical infinitely small jump from the initial position to some other position after time T.<p>It shows that Newtonian mechanics is only an approximation of the real world.
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onosover 2 years ago
Very interesting. I wonder if something analogous to this could be behind wave function collapse in quantum mechanics.
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rylittleover 2 years ago
Why can&#x27;t it just be a triangle? Is there a reason it needs to be curved?
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coef2over 2 years ago
This is a relevant thread: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=28191408" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=28191408</a>
moringover 2 years ago
I think the mathematical approach to this paradox would be to line up the reasoning for time-reversal side-by-side with the predictions for Norton&#x27;s Dome, and find a flaw in either of them. Are we even sure that the reasoning behind time-reversal in Newton&#x27;s laws is solid?<p>BTW entropy was mentioned in another thread, but this thought-experiment is frictionless, so if entropy still comes up that would really be interesting.
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