TE
TechEcho
Home24h TopNewestBestAskShowJobs
GitHubTwitter
Home

TechEcho

A tech news platform built with Next.js, providing global tech news and discussions.

GitHubTwitter

Home

HomeNewestBestAskShowJobs

Resources

HackerNews APIOriginal HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 TechEcho. All rights reserved.

Maybe people do care about performance and reliability

342 pointsby soopurmanover 2 years ago

38 comments

agentultraover 2 years ago
I worked at a hole-in-the-wall-you&#x27;ve-never-heard-of software company that landed big contracts with large multinationals consistently that, from the customers&#x27; perspective, came down to one reason: it wasn&#x27;t SAP.<p>The licensing model of large, enterprise software does have ramifications for users on the floor. In this case it&#x27;s because the software had a per-seat license and required expensive consultants to modify your forms and workflows. It cost millions of dollars and years to roll out SAP at a factory.<p>The software we were making was faster, could be rolled out in weeks, and was user-extensible.<p>The IT folks at said multinationals <i>hated</i> our software. It was the end-users that demanded it, and ultimately, won us our contracts again and again.<p>Performance and reliability matters! It let folks on site get more work done, faster, and with better reporting and insights than they had ever gotten with their bloated, slow, expensive, and difficult-to-use software from more &quot;traditional&quot; vendors.<p>It was a neat experience.
评论 #34794304 未加载
评论 #34792673 未加载
评论 #34791964 未加载
评论 #34843693 未加载
评论 #34792132 未加载
评论 #34791945 未加载
评论 #34798761 未加载
jedbergover 2 years ago
People don&#x27;t directly care about performance and reliability, but it does affect their behavior.<p>Back in the day at reddit, for example, we could see an uplift in usage when we made the pages faster, there was nearly a direct correlation.<p>At Netflix we spent a lot of effort on reliability because every time we had a major outage, there was a dropoff in subscriptions with the cohort that had been affected.<p>And I&#x27;ve heard similar from other people in the reliability space -- that there is no direct impact on retention from availability issues, but you can see an effect in the long term.
评论 #34794262 未加载
评论 #34796773 未加载
评论 #34795752 未加载
iinnPPover 2 years ago
At my previous job I was given permission to fully rewrite the call centre script&#x2F;tooling used by sales agents. I also came from that team, and took a quick detour to the data team before finally landing in a development role. Giving me a full understanding of not only the agents needs and wants, but the limits on data being fed into this system.<p>The resulting page loaded 10 times faster than what it replaced, which was a &#x27;no code&#x27; option that the sales director set up. My solution was built with HTML&#x2F;CSS&#x2F;JS&#x2F;PHP and contained authentication, accessibility, and a toolbox of modules for specific tasks that loaded only when needed (and still lightning fast). Scoring a perfect 100% in every test I threw at it.<p>The positive result of this change was immediately apparent. Not only to the agents and managers, but to the data team. The speed resulted in a full 130% increase in sales, across all agents.<p>Why? Well, the old script took time to download Google Fonts and a boatload of other garbage which put the page load at 2+seconds. This was dead air piled on-top of the delay caused by the auto-dialer. Meaning everyone we called had 3+ seconds of nobody saying anything. When this was cut to 1 second, there wasn&#x27;t a telltale delay to work around in the sales process.<p>So at least in this case, it took the sales director to care enough, not the dev.<p>I built the entire thing in 3 days with zero assistance.
评论 #34792562 未加载
评论 #34799978 未加载
xyzelementover 2 years ago
The author says that he&#x27;s not a product manager and doesn&#x27;t have a particular insight. As a PM, I can share how I think:<p>The main question is &quot;does it matter?&quot; The answer depends case by case.<p>For example, if I am the PM for TurboTax Premier desktop software, I know that it&#x27;s latent - but it probably doesn&#x27;t <i>matter</i> in a way that deserves prioritization. Sure, my clients would <i>like</i> for the forms to load faster, but they care infinitely more about the scope of tax situations we cover, and the correctness of calculation. A person uses my product a few hours per year, so even if there&#x27;s an accumulated minute of form refresh latency, it&#x27;s just not that impactful. What that means is - if I have an &quot;extra developer&quot;, I am going to direct them towards product scope and correctness, not latency.<p>On the other hand, something like VSCODE (an example the article mentions), speed is part of the value proposition. As a developer, I need to quickly change text, quickly look up a reference, quickly switch files, etc. If things are sluggish, it isn&#x27;t just frustrating but limits my ability to do development work. So a user of a slow IDE would be very motivated to seek alternatives, since they basically live in the IDE. As a PM, I would absolutely invest in performance if it was making my product actually less useful.<p>It&#x27;s like anything else, investment has a tradeoff. Chances are, whatever car you drive could have a faster 0-60 speed and in isolation, that would be great. But are you willing to pay 10x for the car? Are you willing to give up the seats and the trunk to make it happen? So your car may not have the best 0-60, but if it&#x27;s an affordable family minivan that&#x27;s probably the right call.
评论 #34794483 未加载
评论 #34795286 未加载
评论 #34796105 未加载
评论 #34799341 未加载
gilbetronover 2 years ago
The idea that software wasn&#x27;t bloated and slow 20,30+ years ago is just myth. Everything was bloated and slow. MS Word in the 90s and 00s would regularly crash and take your file with you, and it often took minutes to start up. Yes, there were some brilliant counterexamples, just as there are today. But most software today is far more enjoyable and rapid to use than that from previous eras. While the software isn&#x27;t as snappy as it theoretically could be, that is mostly because the market finds the tradeoff between features and speed. I&#x27;d rather have a search take a second or two longer if it is able to handle synonyms and different word forms. VS Code is so much better than Visual Studio from around 2000.<p>Usually, the truly bloated software (like a lot of edutech) is just because of regulatory capture. Most of edutech isn&#x27;t judged by the market, but by committees of corrupt idiots, who always exist and for which the open market is the solution for.
评论 #34791978 未加载
评论 #34792412 未加载
评论 #34792664 未加载
评论 #34792293 未加载
评论 #34793479 未加载
评论 #34792382 未加载
评论 #34792118 未加载
评论 #34792083 未加载
评论 #34793734 未加载
评论 #34792735 未加载
评论 #34792725 未加载
评论 #34793313 未加载
评论 #34792912 未加载
评论 #34792249 未加载
评论 #34794027 未加载
评论 #34793034 未加载
评论 #34799127 未加载
评论 #34792087 未加载
评论 #34793146 未加载
评论 #34794478 未加载
评论 #34794790 未加载
didgetmasterover 2 years ago
A big part of the problem in my opinion, is that people are generally not interested in investing (money, time, effort) in technology. They focus almost exclusively on products. The short term is always given a much higher priority than long term.<p>If someone invents a much better way (faster, easier, cheaper) to do some key part of a widely used product (operating system, database, file system, network protocol), they won&#x27;t get any traction until they have built a competing product with all the bells and whistles around that technology.<p>That can be a formidable task to a startup founder with limited resources who has to try and compete with products that have huge budgets and decades of development behind them. Investors won&#x27;t touch it until you have a completed and tested product with many customers already signed up. Customers won&#x27;t touch it until it is a &#x27;drop-in replacement&#x27; for their existing solution which requires resources to finish. Classic catch-22 or chicken-and-egg problem.<p>You can&#x27;t just find a way to do something 10x faster and expect others to flock to it.
评论 #34794733 未加载
评论 #34794114 未加载
zokierover 2 years ago
&gt; The more interesting question is “why don’t people avoid slow software.”<p>Outside of pathological cases, even slow software usually is still lot better than no software and doing things manually, especially when the number of users is &gt;1. I believe that is big reason why people do not <i>avoid</i> slow software.
评论 #34791980 未加载
评论 #34792169 未加载
nicbouover 2 years ago
Seconds matter an awful lot to me. If things don&#x27;t happen fast enough, I end up alt-tabbing to the browser, losing my train of thought, and perhaps wasting a few minutes browsing the web.<p>I also work semi-offline a lot. My current internet connection is roughly 100 KBps. The connection in the underground isn&#x27;t much better. I also work in airports and hotels. These pages that take 10+ seconds to load end up being abandoned.<p>Amazon famously measured how slow pages correlate with lost revenue.<p>You don&#x27;t really notice this until you use something significantly faster, and you can stay focused on the task much longer. Things just work better. It&#x27;s like using a sharp knife for the first time.
评论 #34794890 未加载
probablynishover 2 years ago
&gt; Does performance matter more when the decision maker is also using the software? If any econ grad students are reading this, that’d be a good thesis topic.<p>As a former Econ grad student, this is a case of what&#x27;s called the principal-agent problem, which is a widely studied issue. From Google:<p>&quot;The principal-agent problem is a conflict in priorities between the owner of an asset and the person to whom control of the asset has been delegated. The problem can occur in many situations, from the relationship between a client and a lawyer to the relationship between stockholders and a CEO.&quot;
Michelangelo11over 2 years ago
&quot;apex predator of grug is complexity<p>complexity bad<p>say again:<p>complexity very bad<p>you say now:<p>complexity very, very bad&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;grugbrain.dev&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;grugbrain.dev&#x2F;</a><p>No really -- I would bet that the single greatest contribution comes from the massive growth in complexity, in all relevant areas, over the last 20+ years.
评论 #34796681 未加载
评论 #34793144 未加载
AnIdiotOnTheNetover 2 years ago
I&#x27;m going to pre-emptively link Casey Muratori&#x27;s Refterm Lecture Part 1[0], because invariably when this topic comes up people are all &quot;but optimization takes time and we gotta push the new features right now or the market will eat us.&quot;<p>Computers are so ludicrously fast these days that in the majority of cases you do not need optimization at all. You do need de-pessimization though.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=pgoetgxecw8">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=pgoetgxecw8</a>
评论 #34795463 未加载
评论 #34792866 未加载
trolliedover 2 years ago
I think performance simply just isn&#x27;t on the radar of a big chunk of devs these days, especially self-taught ones. Front-end wise, what with the trend of using frameworks (react&#x2F;vue&#x2F;etc) &amp; a billion lines of javascript downloaded from npm, it&#x27;d probably be too much of a task to even begin profiling.
评论 #34793474 未加载
评论 #34795857 未加载
评论 #34794587 未加载
评论 #34792578 未加载
luckylionover 2 years ago
&gt; I don’t know if there’s anything we can do.<p>I know something we could do, at least for websites. Google could finally make good on their announcement and make CWV actually have a measurable impact on rankings. I work for affiliates&#x2F;SEO people. When CWV was announced, suddenly they cared about performance. Then the deadline came and went and Google decided not to make it really count after all, and they stopped caring. You don&#x27;t have to be better than your competition if you&#x27;re not extremely slow, because either you&#x27;re on 1 and you get the user, or you&#x27;re not, and the user never sees your site (traffic on rank 2 and 3 drops dramatically, and beyond that it&#x27;s barely noticeable).<p>If Google decided to punish slow load times, large layout shifts, huge payloads, and tons of JS by downranking the sites, you&#x27;d quickly have very fast websites all around.
评论 #34791646 未加载
评论 #34792827 未加载
gavinhowardover 2 years ago
I agree with the author that we can make local changes, and I think we should.<p>However, I disagree with the author on global changes. I think we can do them. In fact, I think local changes can grow to global ones, or close to it.<p>Here&#x27;s my personal plan: like many of you, I want to make money off of my FOSS projects. However, instead of going the donation route, I&#x27;m taking an entirely different tack. I am setting myself up as a <i>professional</i>. This includes accepting some liability for my software.<p>You can bet that if I&#x27;m accepting liability, I will be testing my software until it screams.<p>But the flip side of being professional means crafting software that is fast, and I&#x27;m going to do that too. Yes, I&#x27;ll be expensive, but that software should be a <i>massive</i> lever as a result.<p>The bigger the lever, the more likely that that software will help my clients out-compete their competitors. Helping them do so is my goal because if they do, their competitors will have to start caring about performance.<p>And once people care about performance in one thing, it starts to disgust them to have to use slow software in other things. So it may be slow (over decades), but I&#x27;m hoping that my work will help performance go viral.
评论 #34795433 未加载
rgmerkover 2 years ago
My boss cares a lot about performance and reliability.<p>I work for a financial services firm. We are consistently highly rated for customer service. One of the reasons that is the case is that our website is fast.<p>It takes a lot of work by our devs for that to happen!
zac23orover 2 years ago
From a business point of view, performance and reliability (and code quality) are irrelevant. The most important thing is that the product has a market to explore. We can see this in many products.<p>I&#x27;ve been working with software since 1999, I&#x27;ve never seen any developer or manager worry about performance. I&#x27;ve seen a religious battle over formatting or using a Java library, or &quot;it&#x27;s not the Ruby way&quot;.<p>I never participated in any performance or reliability meetings, or projects, or religious battles.<p>In general, performance is only fixed in very extreme cases. For example, I worked on fixing code that generated a few megabytes of SQL. Or code that uses all of the server&#x27;s memory.<p>And it&#x27;s hard to get permission to fix some extreme bugs. The code that generates a million stored procedures after a few months still exists at one of the places where I worked.<p>At another company, I fixed a problem (infinite printing) that had been around for 20 years (I even made a birthday cake for the bug), under pressure from the biggest customer who couldn&#x27;t use a report and no workarounds worked anymore. 20 years of workarounds.<p>You are sometimes seen as a radical if you try to fix the most absurd bugs. Today I document the bug and wait for the prioritization. Sometimes you fix it after 20 years...
评论 #34797491 未加载
deathanatosover 2 years ago
Its a mix.<p>I&#x27;m sitting here trying to replicate a service across multiple zones this mornin— oh, it&#x27;s not morning any more <i>sigh</i> — and, well,<p><pre><code> Code: ReconcileVMSSAgentPoolFailed Message: We are unable to serve this request due to an internal error </code></pre> At some point&#x2F;level, Azure can&#x27;t¹, so I can&#x27;t. There&#x27;s GCP, but high switching costs. (¹this is a fractal error, too. Part incompetence, part societal and economic factors way out of certainly my control.)<p>But absolutely there is incompetence. I fielded this, this week: &quot;the tests broke&quot;, &quot;oh, sorry about that. I&#x27;ve introduced a bug. <i>a while later</i> It&#x27;s fixed now.&quot; &quot;the test is still broke for me?&quot; &quot;… you need to pull the fix…?&quot;<p>I&#x27;ve got another dev staunchly refusing to enable the logging necessary to print tracebacks, … while simultaneously being perplexed by a bug we&#x27;re facing. IDK what&#x27;s causing the bug either … but, IDK, let&#x27;s get some logs in the meantime?<p>Higher ups wondering &quot;why can&#x27;t anyone answer technical questions? How are our devs so incompetent that they don&#x27;t know the answers?&quot; after the entire team that managed the component to which the question is directed at has been laid off.<p>I&#x27;ve answered questions in the form of,<p><pre><code> A: We do X. Here&#x27;s a screenshot. &lt;screenshot&gt; Me: Where in your screenshot is X? A: Oh, you&#x27;re right. </code></pre> Often enough that sometimes I wonder if ChatGPT hasn&#x27;t already replaced some of the people around me.
评论 #34794101 未加载
fmajidover 2 years ago
Zoom (videoconferencing) was started by a former Cisco WebEx employee who was fed up with how sucky WebEx was, and decided to do something about it. So even in the enterprise space where the payer is not the user progress can happen.
iveqyover 2 years ago
I think there&#x27;s actually something in this. That&#x27;s why I&#x27;ve created my own CRM&#x2F;ERP system. All page loads that are slower than 100 ms is considered a bug and I&#x27;m usually on under 50 ms.<p>And of course I&#x27;ve a TUI version of it as well, with all data local (and synced to the cloud).<p>I really hope that once I&#x27;m ready to put it out there, I will find the right audience.
amflareover 2 years ago
In my experience it&#x27;s less about what the end user does or doesn&#x27;t want, but more about what the company can or cannot sell. That is why new features are the priority, because once a feature is complete, there is a clock on how long you can sell it. The problem, of course, is the that the market is usually 95% saturated from the existing customer based. So the gain is incremental at best as a few extra customers filter in now that the new feature is available, and then the race is on to find a new thing to tempt in new customers.<p>Reliability and performance doesn&#x27;t matter to people who are chasing sales (which is most of a company, not just the sales team, because that&#x27;s how company success is measured). Retention is someone else&#x27;s job, and so the focus will always be on churning out more and more feature that can boost sales.
MithrilTuxedoover 2 years ago
Evil enters the world &quot;because the people who do give a crap don’t have the power to do something about it.&quot;
jvansover 2 years ago
I like how this article highlights the complexity of many competing factors. We like to understand things by boiling them down to simple rules and catch phrases that make us feel like we understand the world but that is almost never how things work.<p>As devs we need to take pride in our work, even when it feels like there&#x27;s a lot of pressure to cut corners and ship trash. Take a few extra cycles to make your system just a little bit more resilient and give positive feedback to your peers who do the same.
jefftkover 2 years ago
In ~2006 I was working in tech support and we moved from a snappy homegrown ticketing system to one where tabbing out of each field took ~5. We all hated it and complained immediately, but the contract was signed and we weren&#x27;t able to influence management. Evidence for &quot;Customers aren’t the clients&quot; and &quot;People don’t decide on satisfaction&quot;.
cratermoonover 2 years ago
Suppose your software is a check-in system for an airline, online or mobile. The check-in is probably one of the least-loved aspects flying. How many flyers will decide to pick a different airline based on a bad check-in experience?
tonymetover 2 years ago
I&#x27;ve worked at a number of big companies that have run experiments on TTI &amp; response times and they&#x27;ve all shown statistically significant results that responsiveness impacts revenue, engagement &amp; retention.
hbogertover 2 years ago
The author is my consciousness personified trying to slap me into learning tla+
julikover 2 years ago
Yes, people do care, but if they are not the ones making the purchasing decision (and instead it gets made by someone else who never has to suffer the software themselves) the problem will proliferate.
irsagentover 2 years ago
&quot;It’s well-established consensus that software is slower and more bloated than it was 20, 40 years ago.&quot; says it all. I see now why the suckless community makes the position they do.
xupybdover 2 years ago
&gt;This doesn’t quite agree with my personal experience. I pay a lot of attention to people using computers in my daily life: clerks, receptionists, administrators, etc. And they’re pretty universally frustrated with how slow and unreliable their computers are. They’ll complain for hours if you give them the chance.<p>These are not the people buying these systems. It&#x27;s someone much further up the chain. They often don&#x27;t care if the software is a dog to use. Unless that means they need to employ more people.
CalChrisover 2 years ago
&gt; Programmers want to write fast apps. But the market doesn’t care.<p>That&#x27;s partly because Moore&#x27;s Law, Dennard Scaling, ... meant that our apps were going to get faster next year regardless. Intel had better marketing than Joe Programmer. So Intel got paid.
eliwriover 2 years ago
It&#x27;s hard to make performance and reliability sexy to people who make decisions.
superjanover 2 years ago
I am sometimes surprised how work on optimization (unless explicitly demanded) is regarded negatively. Just do it anyway. No it does not add to my salary but it does wonders for my self-worth and work satisfaction.
shadowgovtover 2 years ago
People care about performance and reliability when there is more than one way to do the thing they want to do.<p>The slowest, most inefficient solution is (depending on the value of solving the problem) better than no solution at all.
评论 #34796330 未加载
garrisonjover 2 years ago
I would switch music providers if they had a client that wasn&#x27;t buggy. So there is a market for quality software. It&#x27;s just challenging.
crabboneover 2 years ago
I work in a company which creates and maintains a dumpster fire product, closing on 20 years now. The product is neither fast nor correct. It has more tech support than developers (and our tech support writes code and solves problems usually associated with development, except, essentially, they are hot-patching the garbage our developers produced, live, at customers&#x27; site).<p>The company was acquired a year ago by an international giant, but it didn&#x27;t really change on the inside.<p>So, what&#x27;s the secret sauce? -- Exclusivity. Competition died off 10-15 years ago. The company used to compete with some big names in the field, but all those withdrew long time ago. So, we won.<p>Unfortunately, this is also a &quot;success story&quot; of many other companies, some of them I even had a (dis-)pleasure to work for. This is also a solid market strategy: don&#x27;t compete, find a market niche where you offer a unique service. Once you are there, do the absolute minimum to make users happy: over time you will have accumulated enough features and unique workflows that are virtually impossible for the competitors to replicate, at least not with the kind of funding a typical start-up may go into town. Also, new features are easier to add, and they bring about as much of customer satisfaction as improving the old and broken stuff. The novelty factor makes it look like customers are getting more treats, but the treats are really low-effort.<p>In the case of a monopoly like the one I&#x27;m in, users feel trapped, often they don&#x27;t even know how much better their software could potentially work, they accept ridiculous gaps in quality because there is no alternative. The requirements to performance and reliability are thus at the absolute minimum, and often lower.<p>---<p>Just to give you a practical example of what I&#x27;m talking about: recently, I discovered that some genius from the department which is responsible for the core component, a service that, beside other things is responsible for processing and saving configuration submitted by users has implemented &quot;buffering&quot;... nevermind that it&#x27;s working on Linux, with filesystem API which already does buffering and caching... But, unlike Linux filesytem API, this NIH caching will lose user&#x27;s data if the service stopped after <i>acknowledging</i> the save to the user and actually writing data to persistent storage. Nevermind that amount of data it has to write is negligible (at most few Megabytes). Nevermind that it&#x27;s typically an interactive operation where users are in no rush to write such data...<p>I couldn&#x27;t even convince the team responsible for the component that there&#x27;s a problem... let alone do anything about it.<p>And, yes, our product used by some of the largest &#x2F; wealthiest companies in the world.
AddictedA1over 2 years ago
because normal people r dumb and they will always think there poor hardware is not enough to run bloated software slows so buy more whole android phone market is like this.
dsugarmanover 2 years ago
The first sentence:<p>&gt;It’s well-established consensus that software is slower and more bloated than it was 20, 40 years ago.<p>That&#x27;s an absurdly ridiculous statement presented as fact with no citations
ramesh31over 2 years ago
People care about features. They don&#x27;t care if a page takes 2 seconds to load or has a thousand npm packages holding it up. They care that they can click a button and it does the thing that they need to do to accomplish their task. This stuff is all magic and pixie dust to 99.9% of people. And if adding the new feature creates bloat and slowness, so be it. If this tiny little seemingly insignificant thing that user wants is not there, it doesn&#x27;t matter to them if you have to completely break your &quot;architectural purity&quot; and hack something gross that messes with your Lighthouse score to put it there. It just needs to be there.
评论 #34793158 未加载