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New estimate for high-speed rail puts California train $100B in the red

31 pointsby tafdaabout 2 years ago

8 comments

CSSerabout 2 years ago
There is a real desire to build, but the issue is that local governments have to sign off on things to do so. For example, Palmdale (outside LA) will be getting a stop even though it&#x27;s out of the way and will make the entire line 12 minutes slower. Without their approval, however, they could hold the entire project hostage.<p>Where local governments haven&#x27;t take advantage, private citizens have. It&#x27;s NIMBYism at grand scale. The grand irony to me is that our lack of experience building such a project is probably the smallest problem. We have or can buy the expertise. Our government just isn&#x27;t set up for this.
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newmanah223about 2 years ago
The entire US interstate system cost about 500 billion to build and has delivered tremendous value to the public.<p>The California project is designed for political payoffs sadly, so it is functioning as intended.
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drannexabout 2 years ago
This project will easily create a 10x return in economic development within 5-10 years. Public transportation is an investment in your areas overall upward mobility for everyone and expand options and choices in ways that are entirely unheard of today.<p>If they don&#x27;t build this now, then it will take and cost longer to build later.
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jacobnabout 2 years ago
Escalation of commitment to a failing course of action. Has the money spent so far produced anything tangible &amp; usable? Or is it all reports &amp; studies?
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perryizgr8about 2 years ago
Is there any moderate to large scale passenger rail system in the world that is economically viable? It always seems to be brought into existence by force of massive subsidies. The mode of transport seems to be fundamentally broken.
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onecommentmanabout 2 years ago
As a point of comparison, consider the New Mexico Rail Runner.<p>Length: 97 miles.<p>Project kicked off in 2005, service for three stations (Albuquerque&#x2F;Los Ranchos&#x2F;Sandoval) started in 2006, first phase (Belen to Santa Fe, eight stations) completed in 2008, second phase complete in 2017 with fifteen stations operational.<p><i>Total</i> capital cost: around $385 Million dollars. That’s Million…with an <i>M</i>. Operational deficit of about $20 Million&#x2F;year that is now covered by sales tax.<p>Folks liked it enough to pass the sales tax to cover operating losses, being viewed positively by both locals and the tourism industry. A horizontal complement to the vertical Sandia Peak Tram (4000’ elevation change, 2.7 mi length, two stations, completed in two years, opened 1966).<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;New_Mexico_Rail_Runner_Express" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;New_Mexico_Rail_Runner_Express</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;sandiapeak.com&#x2F;history-construction&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;sandiapeak.com&#x2F;history-construction&#x2F;</a>
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tedsandersabout 2 years ago
In 2008, Prop 1A offered high speed rail to Californians. It sold a vision of 220 mph trains connecting SF and LA by 2020, with extensions to San Diego and Sacramento, all without raising taxes. A slim majority of Californian voters believed in this vision, and voted yes.<p>15 years later, the project is more than 15 years behind schedule, give or take. Instead of taking 12 years to connect SF and LA, it&#x27;s now taking 22-25 years to connect Merced and Bakersfield (the easy middle third), with no timeline at all for connecting San Jose and Anaheim.<p>The estimated cost of the project has ballooned from $33B (~$1,000 per Californian) to $88B-$128B (~$3,000 per Californian), a figure that almost seems certain to be an underestimate given the monotonic climb of past estimates.<p>And remember, the cost of $3,000 per Californian is not the cost of getting to ride the train between SF and LA. It&#x27;s the cost of getting the OPTION to buy tickets for a train that&#x27;s slower than planes, more expensive than planes, and projected to operate at a loss and need further taxpayer subsidy.<p>When I read the project&#x27;s current marketing materials, I feel saddened.<p>The project managers brag that the project has <i>generated</i> ~$14B in <i>economic output</i>.<p>But their accounting is reversed. Until the first passenger takes a trip, the project has <i>CONSUMED</i> ~$14B in economic <i>INPUTS</i>.<p>There is no economic output of a half-built train that doesn&#x27;t run. At that point, you might as well have been paying people to dig holes in the desert or construct pyramids. The value of labor is not when a bank computer subtracts a number from an employer&#x27;s account and adds it to an employee&#x27;s account. The value of labor is the utility that that labor produces.<p>Similarly, the project managers brag about the environmental benefits of the project.<p>But again, until the first point at which a flight is replaced by a train trip, the environmental impact of rail construction is entirely negative. If you pour concrete, mine iron, smelt steel, and rip up habitats, those are all environmental costs. Benefits don&#x27;t accrue until the first airline defers a flight due to diminished demand.<p>Ultimately, the goal of transit programs should be to transport people.<p>If you run transit programs with the goals of (a) creating jobs or (b) signalling your commitment to transit, then you can very easily run into trouble, as cost overruns start to look like good things. Spending more money just mean you’ve created more jobs, and that you&#x27;re signalling even stronger commitment to transit.<p>Put simply: If you run a project with the goal of paying contractors, it&#x27;s very easy to get ripped off by contractors. You both have the same goal.
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the_optimistabout 2 years ago
This is mistaken for a train. The whole point is to wash money out of the tax base to political colleagues.
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