TE
TechEcho
Home24h TopNewestBestAskShowJobs
GitHubTwitter
Home

TechEcho

A tech news platform built with Next.js, providing global tech news and discussions.

GitHubTwitter

Home

HomeNewestBestAskShowJobs

Resources

HackerNews APIOriginal HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 TechEcho. All rights reserved.

Time to end the speed limit in US airspace?

225 pointsby danboarderabout 2 years ago

38 comments

AlphaCharlieabout 2 years ago
The faster the plane goes, the more fuel it consumes due to the drag increase by the square of the speed. In a world where fossil fuel is needed to fly airplanes and where oil is causing a destruction of the world we inhabit, it&#x27;s dangerous to suggest we should make the flying industry polluting more than they already are.<p>If anything we should look at the trade-off benefits of flying with the least amount of fuel consumption per passenger and miles flown. Flying faster than mach-1 to save time will be reserved to a small elite. How does it benefit the masses?
评论 #35309718 未加载
评论 #35304590 未加载
评论 #35308589 未加载
评论 #35308408 未加载
评论 #35304807 未加载
评论 #35304523 未加载
评论 #35304681 未加载
评论 #35305672 未加载
评论 #35309301 未加载
评论 #35308158 未加载
评论 #35310179 未加载
评论 #35311478 未加载
评论 #35304496 未加载
评论 #35310034 未加载
评论 #35308748 未加载
评论 #35308262 未加载
评论 #35309927 未加载
评论 #35310167 未加载
评论 #35304524 未加载
评论 #35311684 未加载
评论 #35312130 未加载
评论 #35308184 未加载
评论 #35304630 未加载
hn_throwaway_99about 2 years ago
&gt; issued a rule that remains one of the most destructive acts of industrial vandalism in history.<p>Excuse me while I throw up in my mouth. Seriously, f this guy. I suppose he&#x27;s in favor of letting us chuck all of our garbage out of open windows while we drive, too.<p>I&#x27;ve heard sonic booms before at air shows, and it&#x27;s not some quiet little &quot;beep&quot;. They&#x27;re loud and disturbing. As someone who values silence, hearing these frequently at any hour of the day would drive me insane.<p>I don&#x27;t doubt there is technology that can make booms quieter, but until it&#x27;s 0, STFU. Sick of people arguing that creating technology for the benefit of a tiny few (as others have mentioned, supersonic travel will always be inherently more inefficient) is OK, the externalities on the rest of the populace be damned.
评论 #35308055 未加载
评论 #35308976 未加载
评论 #35304829 未加载
评论 #35310618 未加载
评论 #35305040 未加载
评论 #35312446 未加载
评论 #35304650 未加载
评论 #35304780 未加载
评论 #35304694 未加载
评论 #35312745 未加载
评论 #35304975 未加载
jedbergabout 2 years ago
I think a lot of people here are missing the author&#x27;s point. It&#x27;s not about letting people go faster per se. It&#x27;s about the fact that the ban doesn&#x27;t actually target the right thing.<p>The purpose of the Mach 1+ ban is to reduce noise. But if the goal is to reduce noise, why not just set noise limits? We have the ability to measure noise, so if the goal is to reduce noise, set a limit on noise.<p>Then let the airplane operators innovate however makes sense for their business. If you&#x27;re worried about pollution (which is a good thing to worry about!) then there should be a separate fuel per mile limit or a carbon tax. Then they can innovate within both constraints.<p>But the whole point is that the metric being used is wrong -- it should be noise output, not speed.
评论 #35304843 未加载
评论 #35304990 未加载
评论 #35309386 未加载
评论 #35321737 未加载
jmclnxabout 2 years ago
Well I am old enough to remember the Sonic Booms. We would get a warning in the local newspaper (sometimes) and as kids we will watch outside waiting for the boom and try and find the plane. We lived fairly close to a base that would test these planes.<p>But, some people&#x27;s windows would crack and some would break due to the boom, which they had to pay for. So, if this limit is changed, will the aircraft owners pay people for their broken windows.<p>Back then seeing a plane at any speed was not common event. Now you look up at just about any time of day and the chances are very good (like 90%+) you can find a plane.
评论 #35304500 未加载
评论 #35304661 未加载
评论 #35304551 未加载
评论 #35304452 未加载
评论 #35310653 未加载
评论 #35305004 未加载
Scaevolusabout 2 years ago
Isn&#x27;t the real killer of supersonic commercial flights the inefficiency? You&#x27;re using ~5x more fuel to have a flight that&#x27;s ~2x faster. I suppose you can recoup the fuel cost with expensive tickets, but should we encourage even less efficient flights?<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;theicct.org&#x2F;new-supersonic-transport-aircraft-fuel-burn-parity-or-environmental-parody&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;theicct.org&#x2F;new-supersonic-transport-aircraft-fuel-b...</a>
评论 #35310214 未加载
rickydrollabout 2 years ago
While I don&#x27;t worry about the impact of sonic booms on humans, and were concerned about the impact on the rest of the natural world.<p>Like low-level sonic booms, light pollution was never considered to be a big issue but eventually crossed the threshold where it now has significant negative impact on animals insects and plants. My concern is that once little sonic booms become commonplace and we start noticing the impact on the natural world, there will be too much money in play to stop the damage.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nature.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;d41586-018-00665-7" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nature.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;d41586-018-00665-7</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;pmc&#x2F;articles&#x2F;PMC2627884&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;pmc&#x2F;articles&#x2F;PMC2627884&#x2F;</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.science.org&#x2F;doi&#x2F;10.1126&#x2F;sciadv.abi8322" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.science.org&#x2F;doi&#x2F;10.1126&#x2F;sciadv.abi8322</a><p>[edit] just remembered another low-level fact that people did not think was important. Jet contrails significantly increase high-level cloud cover which alters weather patterns and holds more heat in the atmosphere. A simple change in flightpath by modifying altitude by couple thousand feet can eliminate 80% or more of cultural formation but the airlines won&#x27;t do it because of the small amount of additional money it would cost.
frompdxabout 2 years ago
<i>I’m struck by the fact that American economic growth went off the rails in 1973, the same year the overland ban on supersonic flight came into force.</i><p>This seems like a hasty conclusion to make. There are plenty of things that correlate with the stagnation of economic growth. I&#x27;m aware the author goes on to say almost the same thing after making this statement, but it is clear the author is trying to offer the ban on supersonic flight over soil to be the cause of economic stagnation in America.<p><i>To borrow a term from Ross Douthat, there is something decadent about putting a complete halt to the development of a key technology simply because a few otherwise harmless sonic booms might annoy a vocal minority.</i><p>I fail to see how there has been a complete halt on the development of supersonic technology. A ban on supersonic flight over US soil is not a ban on the development of the technology.<p><i>We need to get back to doing great things.</i><p>Who says we aren&#x27;t?<p><i>If we want growth—if we want greatness—it’s time to make America boom again.</i><p>I can&#x27;t agree with the author&#x27;s conclusion. Besides, they don&#x27;t really make an effort in their article to tie the development of supersonic flight over land to economic growth. This is more of a &quot;build it and they will come&quot; conclusion. I don&#x27;t buy it.
评论 #35305448 未加载
pclmulqdqabout 2 years ago
What an amazing scientific experiment: &quot;we flew a fighter jet over a Texas city to purposely annoy people, and asked how annoyed they were.&quot; Followed by: &quot;only 17 people rated &#x27;very annoyed&#x27; so that&#x27;s a win.&quot; No mention of the number of people who put down any other annoyance level...
评论 #35304569 未加载
评论 #35308402 未加载
评论 #35311591 未加载
omeysalviabout 2 years ago
&quot;Let&#x27;s create a nuisance for everyone so that billionaires can save 20% time in the air&quot;
评论 #35309250 未加载
dan-robertsonabout 2 years ago
I think the author is right in wanting laws to try to directly control the thing they care about rather than indirectly affecting it.<p>I’m confused about the other point though. Did this rule affect transatlantic flights? Somehow Concorde was allowed and I would have thought that transatlantic routes would be sufficient to economically justify supersonic flights if they make sense. (Maybe they do make sense now).<p>I think the extrapolation of the max speed graph doesn’t really make sense. It may have made sense to do that in the ’60s or ’70s, as I think that people in the aviation industry reasonably thought that was the direction planes were going. The 747 was designed to become a cargo plane once supersonic planes replaced it. But apart from Concorde, supersonic civilian jets didn’t happen so is the claim here that the rule prevented them from being developed because of the extra economies of scale from selling a few more planes to fly between the east and west coast? That is: I think this argument would have been more convincing if transatlantic supersonic flight was also banned and Concorde hadn’t existed. Given that that’s not what happened, I think it must make a stronger case for that rule hindering the development of supersonic civil aviation rather than other things like consumers preferring comfort to speed or the increased speed only affecting time in the air and not travel to the airport, waiting there, baggage claim, and travel from the airport.<p>Another thing I believe is that noise pollution is generally underrated and that society and governments should care more about how much there is and reducing it.
评论 #35308606 未加载
评论 #35313525 未加载
lumb63about 2 years ago
The glaring issue I see with this proposal is the author supposes that people who say that they could “live indefinitely with sonic booms” have all the facts needed to make that assessment and are correct, or that they want to live indefinitely with sonic booms.<p>People could “live indefinitely” with ionizing radiation (and non-ionizing, I might add), but that does not mean it does not impact their health or wellbeing. There are detriments outside of the immediately obvious “loud noise bothers someone”, such as property damage, ecological destruction, environmental concerns, health impacts, passenger safety, etc.<p>I couldn’t disagree more with this.
flerchinabout 2 years ago
In any spot in the country, you can look up and see aircraft, or contrails, every day, all day. Unless near an airport, you generally do not hear them at all. Even with boom reduction technology, booms would be heard by everyone, everyday. This is _not cool_. The author makes a valid point that the restriction should be on the noise generated, not the speed, but even the mitigated booms would not pass a reasonable test.
评论 #35304884 未加载
thejenkabout 2 years ago
&gt; Not a noise standard, which would make sense. A speed limit.<p>Is enforcing a perceived noise, or even a measured decibel limit on the ground even realistic? It would be difficult to investigate reported infractions unless they&#x27;re consistently coming from a scheduled route, because the noise level on the ground depends on more than just the plane. &quot;Supersonic jets that don&#x27;t have a lot of headroom on the noise limits in a dry, flat desert shouldn&#x27;t fly supersonic through this area because the the land underneath is shaped like a parabola and it&#x27;s very humid.&quot; is much more difficult for a pilot to manage and a regulation body to enforce than &quot;Don&#x27;t fly faster than this airspeed.&quot; especially when the effect was the same back when the bill was introduced.
nojaabout 2 years ago
&quot;..there is something decadent about putting a complete halt to the development of a key technology simply because a few otherwise harmless sonic booms might annoy a vocal minority.&quot;<p>-&gt; <i>benefit</i> a minority?
panick21_about 2 years ago
Isn&#x27;t the whole problem with boom shaping that it requires a thinner fuselage meaning you transport even fewer people? I just don&#x27;t see this being viable.<p>Musk has talked for a long time about a supersonic jet that would fly higher and thus not be heard on the ground. However batteries would need to get quite a bit better still and it would be a massive expansive project.
Johnny555about 2 years ago
<i>Until such time as the FAA creates standards that allow supersonic aircraft to operate over the United States, civil supersonic flight shall be allowed as long as mean cruise sonic boom directly beneath the flight track is less than 90 PLdB for daytime operations or 80 PLdB for nighttime operations.</i><p>Wouldn’t this just encourage designs that create a sonic boom null zone directly below the aircraft and make it louder 10 or 20 degrees to the sides?<p>If the proposed new standard is already impossible to meet, why not continue with the current permitting system and when quieter craft are on the horizon, make meaningful standards?
shpxabout 2 years ago
&gt; He was briefly startled but went back to fishing in under one second.<p>This was laugh-out-loud funny to me, something a character on the Silicon Valley show would say.
gabereiserabout 2 years ago
I live on my sailboat near Cape Canaveral, FL. I hear sonic booms when SpaceX lands their Falcon9 back on the pad. 1) it’s never at night, usually on weekends or evenings (thank you SpaceX!). 2) It’s an awesome feeling but can leave the less healthy feeling a bit distraught. 3) Because they are able to land a stage 1 back at the pad, and that is a huge feat of engineering excellence, I’ll allow it. So awesome!<p><i>edit</i> my point is there are people that aren’t as bothered by it as others and would like to see us do great things as a species
verandaguyabout 2 years ago
This article comes off as _very_ optimistic, to the point of making some really bad assumptions and misrepresenting data.<p>The bit about sitting in a sonic boom simulator chamber is just silly — the author&#x27;s subjective opinion about the loudness of a sonic boom has no bearing on reality, and fails to factor in that sonic booms during e.g. Bongo II (1964) shattered windows not because of the sheer volume of the sonic booms, but because this pressure wave would strike the large surface area of a window nearly all at once, putting a fair amount of energy into it in doing so.<p>Almost as silly is the line extrapolating speed trends in commercial aviation over time; it reads like xkcd#605. It completely ignores the different regimes of high-speed flight and the limitations posed by it. 2,500mph is roughly Mach 3.2 at sea level, or nearly 3.8 at 60,000ft. At Mach 2, you need to start seriously considering thermal issues caused by friction related to parasitic drag and the paint&#x2F;coating of the aircraft; at Mach 3, these become primary design constraints, and active cooling systems have to be deeply integrated into the airframe. This is to say nothing of the exotic engine design decisions that have to be made in these regimes.<p>Much north of Mach 4, transporting any useful load becomes borderline impractical in-atmosphere with current technology.<p>Ignoring fuel economy issues since I brought this up in a separate comment: since the introduction of the Concorde, the major focuses of aviation development have been on safety, reliability, and automation (all of which are strongly linked). &quot;We live in the safest era of aviation in history&quot; is an evergreen statement thanks to those advancements, and aviation incidents — while tragic and unfortunately not completely eliminated yet — claim fewer lives with each passing year (as a proportion of passenger-miles travelled).
dogmatismabout 2 years ago
I&#x27;ll just leave this here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jacc.org&#x2F;doi&#x2F;10.1016&#x2F;j.jacadv.2023.100262" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jacc.org&#x2F;doi&#x2F;10.1016&#x2F;j.jacadv.2023.100262</a><p>Road noise increases incidence of hypertension<p>maybe this should be studied before the regulation is changed
评论 #35309825 未加载
dreamcompilerabout 2 years ago
I was a kid before 1973 and grew up within 100 miles of a couple of air force bases. I heard sonic booms almost every day. We&#x27;d be out playing in the yard and hear a kaboom sound, look up and see the contrail of a fighter jet. (It was always too high to hear the engine.)<p>It was just a normal part of life. Everybody was used to it and I never heard anybody complain about it. I&#x27;ve been in thunderstorms that were <i>much</i> louder.<p>Granted these jets were very high. If they had been going Mach 1 close to the ground, people would have complained about broken windows.<p>And I&#x27;m not suggesting my experience was the norm. Just that in some cases sonic booms were a part of life that nobody really paid much attention to.
mlqafyabout 2 years ago
&quot;Yet, the ban is not unrelated to economic stagnation. To borrow a term from Ross Douthat, there is something decadent about putting a complete halt to the development of a key technology simply because a few otherwise harmless sonic booms might annoy a vocal minority. With boom-shaping technology we know is possible, a tiny vocal minority. The cultural forces that led to and sustain the ban have certainly halted other progress.&quot;<p>Straight from the Silicon Valley comedy show. Next: &quot;Why sonic booms are actually a good thing.&quot;<p>Noise leads to health problems and should be outlawed.
rgmerkabout 2 years ago
Stratospheric supersonic aircraft will have other significant and very poorly understood environmental effects, with complicated tradeoffs between damaging the ozone layer and contributing to climate change:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pubs.rsc.org&#x2F;en&#x2F;content&#x2F;articlelanding&#x2F;2022&#x2F;ea&#x2F;d1ea00081k" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pubs.rsc.org&#x2F;en&#x2F;content&#x2F;articlelanding&#x2F;2022&#x2F;ea&#x2F;d1ea0...</a><p>Supersonic passenger transport is hardly an urgent global need, so can we at least do some more science to understand the risks and appropriately regulate first?
dghlsakjgabout 2 years ago
It was never all about the noise, SST&#x2F;Concorde failed on cost.<p>Sure it would be cool to fly across the continent in 1&#x2F;2 the time, but not at the expense of tens of millions of people having to know about it
greedoabout 2 years ago
Wow, a Koch funded think tank wants to roll back regulations. Shocked...
评论 #35310700 未加载
gamblor956about 2 years ago
No justification is given for ending the ban. Supersonic places are expensive enough that supersonic flight will be the exclusive domain of the wealthy for years.<p>I&#x27;m okay with not having to deal with the booms if it means the wealthy are stuck flying the same speed as the rest of us.
评论 #35304836 未加载
dghnnabout 2 years ago
I’d rather someone fix regular air travel—ban dynamic pricing and dangerously cramped seats first.
fossuserabout 2 years ago
Makes sense to focus on the actual issue (noise) and not speed.<p>It’d be awesome to have supersonic commercial aircraft that were also quiet. I’m excited about YC’s Boom and their overature plane, but it’d be so cool to able to fly coast to coast at supersonic speeds.<p>Hopefully something like this can pass.
neilvabout 2 years ago
For the convenience of the wealthy?
causality0about 2 years ago
<i>What it would do is signal to the aviation industry that America is open for business. It’s time to build new low-boom aircraft</i><p>This is completely idiotic. There is not a single goddamn reason to operate supersonic civilian aircraft except to cater to the whims of the wealthy. This jackass read a study and sat in a simulator and thinks he has even the slightest idea of what it&#x27;s like to grow up getting boomed every day. I did. It&#x27;s not fun having your house rattle all the time at random. I cannot even imagine what it would be like around a commercial airport that had dozens of supersonics every day instead of a handful of small military jets.
Aweltonabout 2 years ago
The low boom aircraft designs are something I haven&#x27;t seen and are quite interesting. I have been under a few &quot;non low boom&quot; supersonics, and they rattle entire buildings and set off car alarms.
fwlrabout 2 years ago
The author’s thesis is interesting but unfortunately he makes terrible arguments for it. Here’s a completely different and much better argument:<p>For the past half-century, this one law has ensured that the entire field of supersonic flight has been explored by just one actor, the military, which has a completely different set of incentives and interests to all other actors in the field of flight.<p>Fuel efficiency, noise pollution, passengers per flight, economic benefits of faster commercial travel - the military doesn’t care about these at all. But commercial aerospace engineers care a great deal about these things, they have made <i>huge</i> strides in improving them*, and this law effectively <i>completely bars all of them</i> from investigating supersonic flight because no matter what they might discover, they will not be permitted to implement any of it. There is no way even in principle to get around this law because it does not care about anything except the speedometer reading.<p>( *: ”Revenue passenger kilometers per kilogram of CO2” is a statistic that tries to capture the combined effects of a wide range of efficiency improvements. Wikipedia says it has gone from 0.4 in the 1950s to 8.4 in the 2010s, a 20x improvement. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Fuel_economy_in_aircraft" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Fuel_economy_in_aircraft</a> The FAA says that in 1975, one person on the ground experienced significant noise exposure for every 30 people taking a flight. Today, one person experiences significant noise exposure for every 2,100 people taking a flight, a 70x improvement. The threshold for ‘significant noise exposure’ has not changed in this time. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.faa.gov&#x2F;regulations_policies&#x2F;policy_guidance&#x2F;noise&#x2F;history" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.faa.gov&#x2F;regulations_policies&#x2F;policy_guidance&#x2F;noi...</a>)<p>For all we know there might be some particular combination of aircraft shape, speed, route, and cruising height that lets an aircraft skip along the upper surface of some obscure transition boundary in the atmosphere and you could fly a thousand passengers from London to New York in three hours using one-tenth of the fuel, and all the sound energy bounces off that boundary and is reflected into the upper atmosphere, never reaching the ground. We will never know because no company will pay any engineer to look for it because even if they found it they wouldn’t be allowed to test it, much less fly it commercially. They can’t even properly investigate it intellectually since there’s almost no research material because, again, it’s illegal in principle.<p>It’s hard to come up with an analogous law for other fields. It would be like banning any computation faster than one megaflop per second, because at the time of the law being passed we only had vacuum tubes and getting that speed out of a vacuum tube computer required a building the size of a football stadium and the tubes tended to explode and kill technicians. It would be like making it illegal for any person to travel at any speed greater than 20mph, because trying to go faster tended to harm the horses we were riding at the time.<p>We should repeal this law against supersonic flight (and replace it with an equivalent law that cares about the <i>consequences</i> of supersonic flight), to signal to aerospace companies that we will, in principle, let them do it - if they can do it well.
zone411about 2 years ago
Here&#x27;s a good comment from Marginal Revolution about this: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;marginalrevolution.com&#x2F;marginalrevolution&#x2F;2023&#x2F;03&#x2F;end-speed-limits-on-aircraft.html?commentID=160584434" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;marginalrevolution.com&#x2F;marginalrevolution&#x2F;2023&#x2F;03&#x2F;en...</a>
a0zUabout 2 years ago
Even disregarding the sonic boom, why would we even want mediocre civil pilots to have access to aircraft thag are necessarily more dangerous and more destructive in the event of a crash?
评论 #35304624 未加载
danboarderabout 2 years ago
&quot;Fifty years ago today, on March 23, 1973, Alexander P. Butterfield, the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration, issued a rule that remains one of the most destructive acts of industrial vandalism in history. ... The rule imposed a speed limit on US airspace. Not a noise standard, which would make sense. A speed limit.&quot;<p>Imagine how quiet hypersonic planes would be now if the rule had been a based on loudness instead of speed. I imagine getting from LA to NY in an an hour in near-silence... That would be awesome!
EricEabout 2 years ago
Unchecked overregulation once again stifling innovation.
2-718-281-828about 2 years ago
if that restriction is lifted then the sonic boom is going to be the next status symbol of the top .1%ers.<p>also - can someone give a tl;dr why that guy is so passionate about that to begin with?<p>&gt; I’m struck by the fact that American economic growth went off the rails in 1973, the same year the overland ban on supersonic flight came into force.<p>seems like is onto something ...<p>&gt; The speed limit cannot be responsible for the entirety of the Great Stagnation, of course.<p>oh, really, no kidding?
Bloatingabout 2 years ago
Taxes! Raise Taxes! But, just raise that other guys taxes<p>and, it needs to be cheaper