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Wikipedia’s “Supreme Court” to review Polish-Jewish history during WWII

79 pointsby kurtreedabout 2 years ago

10 comments

tablespoonabout 2 years ago
&gt; Sometimes that abuse is relatively easy to identify. In 2019, ArbCom disciplined the two editors most involved in this subject area, instituting a topic ban for their “incivility and inflammatory rhetoric.” But what about the more insidious cases when there are no blatant signs of harassment? Wikipedians told me that these “civil” disputes are much more challenging to resolve because of a key jurisdictional issue: ArbCom has authority to decide on user conduct disputes but is not permitted to rule on article content.<p>Also Wikipedia&#x27;s toxic culture often refuses to call a spade a spade, and gives some favored problematic editors a long leash to be uncivil, so long as they learn to avoid a few of the most blatant unacceptable behaviors. IMHO, they need to be more consistent and more final with their bans, because a community with a lot of individuals who&#x27;ve been taught how to obscure their misbehavior and&#x2F;or expertly push it right up to the line is still a shitty community.
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the_afabout 2 years ago
Anyone who has tried to deal with Wikipedia on any remotely controversial topic knows this is true (from the article):<p>&gt; <i>Clearly, a small group of Wikipedia editors seems to be trying to exhaust the other side until they no longer have the time or energy to fight.</i><p>This is what gets me. I really like Wikipedia. It&#x27;s probably my single most visited website ever. But in the end, what stays there is whatever a group of editors with too much time on their hands is willing to spend seemingly limitless time and energy to fight for. It can be exhausting to try to correct something if you don&#x27;t have limitless time or don&#x27;t &quot;know&quot; the right people, which makes Wikipedia way less open than it pretends to be.<p>Then again, I wouldn&#x27;t be able to edit an article on the Encyclopedia Britannica...
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advisedwangabout 2 years ago
This example gets to a fundamental reality in group decision making: some issues for some people are too important to them for them to accept the group deciding against them. That can be perfectly legitimate - for example a minority shareholder should not accept a majority owner giving a dividend only to the minority; or a subset of a population should not accept a political process that strips them of rights.<p>Depending on how a decision system is set up and supported and what the people are willing to do, the outcomes can be very different. Some possible outcomes are deadlock (where no decisions can be made), disintegration (e.g. where people unilaterally act and group decision making ends), exception (where rules are suspended and some other process makes the decision this time) or violence (which could be state power enforcing a decision but also can be assassination etc).<p>It sounds like ArbCom is a managed form of exception to the usual consensus decision making. I hope its effective.
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lynguistabout 2 years ago
Interesting. It reminds me of <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Croatian_Wikipedia" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Croatian_Wikipedia</a><p>Croatian Wikipedia was used to deliberately and succesfully instill nationalist and neo-fascist points of view onto the users of the page, young people in Croatia. The really odd thing is that literally 4 Wikipedias were started in the Serbo-Croatian language: the Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia, the Serbian Wikipedia, the Croatian Wikipedia, and the Bosnian Wikipedia. The Croatian one is often the most biased one.<p>—<p>I often read the English and the German Wikipedias. I found that I can edit the English Wikipedia and my changes are accepted, my changes on the German Wikipedia however are rejected.<p>The English Wikipedia is up-to-date. In topics such as computers or science or popular culture, it is very accurate. The German Wikipedia feels to me like stuck in 2006. Many pages don’t have any of the recent developments, and the information is very outdated.<p>If I read history, English and German Wikipedias present completely different articles, where the German one tends to be better and unbiased. Only in these topics (history and the like) the easy editability of the English Wikipedia makes it a target and victim of misinformation and bias.
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chxabout 2 years ago
Eastern European history topics insidiously edited by the far right? Where did I hear <i>that</i>? <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=34747388" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=34747388</a><p>So far we have Wikipedia admitting Croatia and Poland and if they were to look I am sure they would find interesting things in Hungary as well as I pointed out.
wslhabout 2 years ago
There is a stronger political discussion at country levels between Israel and Poland regarding this topic. It is easy searchable, you can find articles like this [1]. The author doesn&#x27;t seem to study the topic in all extent.<p>I suggest to read the paper which sets a more scientific ground to Wikipedia issues that other anecdotes. Beyond this specific topic, I don&#x27;t know of topics which enable a level of discussion of this caliber.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.haaretz.com&#x2F;israel-news&#x2F;2021-06-30&#x2F;ty-article&#x2F;.highlight&#x2F;why-israels-new-government-is-finally-standing-up-to-polands-holocaust-revisionism&#x2F;0000017f-e88e-dc91-a17f-fc8f6b8b0000" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.haaretz.com&#x2F;israel-news&#x2F;2021-06-30&#x2F;ty-article&#x2F;.h...</a>
rzlemidsqabout 2 years ago
Based on the editors involved and the subject matter, this is a re-run of one of Wikipedia&#x27;s most famous scandals: the Eastern European Mailing List (EEML).[0]<p>The EEML was a group of Eastern European editors who set up a secret mailing list to coordinate their activities in their never-ending nationalist edit wars, primarily (but not only) against Russian editors.<p>Secretly coordinating over a back channel is a real no-no in Wikipedia culture, because it allows a group of editors to completely subvert the rules. For example, one of Wikipedia&#x27;s bright red lines is that no editor may revert the same page more than three times in 24 hours.[1] If you have a secret mailing list with all your like-minded editors, you can always just send out a request for someone else to revert on your behalf. That&#x27;s exactly what the EEML did.<p>Two things made the EEML special. First, they had an admin in their ranks (Piotrus, who is also a party to this latest Arbcom case about Polish-Jewish history), who was actively scheming with them to sideline and ban their enemies. That gave them significantly more power than a random group of editors would have had.<p>Second, their entire mailing list was published by Wikileaks. Yes, Wikileaks, not Wikipedia. The speculation is that there was a mole in the EEML, who eventually passed their correspondence to Wikileaks. You can read a sample of the messages from the EEML here: [2].<p>There was a big argument over whether Arbcom should even consider the evidence from Wikileaks, or whether that would violate the privacy of the EEML editors. But Arbcom did end up taking the emails into account, because how could it not? The emails were pretty spectacular, showing all sorts of underhanded scheming: things like, &quot;You, you and you will push editor X&#x27;s buttons, and when he responds, I&#x27;ll report him for incivility.&quot;<p>The EEML editors mostly got off the hook with a slap on the wrist. You would think they would have gotten permanently banned, but somehow, they weren&#x27;t. Several of them have remained extremely active in Eastern European nationalist edit wars, and are in fact now parties to this new case.<p>This latest case centers around the history of antisemitism in Poland, and particularly around the involvement of Polish collaborators in the Holocaust. One of the biggest flashpoints was an article about a supposed concentration camp for non-Jewish Poles.[3] The camp never existed. It&#x27;s an urban legend, invented in order to claim that non-Jewish Poles were equal victims as Polish Jews. But there was a big fight between Polish nationalist and Israeli editors over the article. Ah, Wikipedia, what a miserable place.<p>0. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Wikipedia:Arbitration&#x2F;Requests&#x2F;Case&#x2F;Eastern_European_mailing_list" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Wikipedia:Arbitration&#x2F;Requests...</a><p>1. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Wikipedia:3RR" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Wikipedia:3RR</a><p>2. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;wikileaks.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Wikipediametric_mailinglist&#x2F;Piotrus" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;wikileaks.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Wikipediametric_mailinglist&#x2F;Piotr...</a><p>3. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.haaretz.com&#x2F;israel-news&#x2F;2019-10-04&#x2F;ty-article-magazine&#x2F;.premium&#x2F;the-fake-nazi-death-camp-wikipedias-longest-hoax-exposed&#x2F;0000017f-e367-d568-ad7f-f36f77000000" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.haaretz.com&#x2F;israel-news&#x2F;2019-10-04&#x2F;ty-article-ma...</a>
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PicassoCTsabout 2 years ago
There was alot of horrific things that went on in those &quot;in-between-empire&quot; countries, that got steam rolled regularly, reappeared half digested during defeats and either imitated there old masters, hoping to keep independent by mimicry or in re-aligning with new empires, imagining those who suffered the wrath of other empires, to be more sympathetic.<p>Those trying to transcend nationalism and imperialism of course were there mortal enemies, as they subverted the endeavor for freedom and independence. Im pretty certain some dreamed aloud about becoming the muscovites instead of the muscovites.<p>The bandera activities on polish jews come to mind<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;historynewsnetwork.org&#x2F;article&#x2F;122778" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;historynewsnetwork.org&#x2F;article&#x2F;122778</a><p>and the formation of collaborator legions<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Ukrainian_collaboration_with_Nazi_Germany" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Ukrainian_collaboration_with_N...</a><p>and the sovjet union punished them severely, after hitler fed them into the churning war. There was a corner house (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Corner_House_(Riga)" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Corner_House_(Riga)</a>) in every occupied city, and a room with swiss-cheese walls in ever one of those houses.<p>The empire is the worst thing to ever happen, a certain source of misery, a crack all wounded nation states would yearn for, willing to trample another million into the dust. It by now has infected the us at the core and is slowly eroding its values away. It has put up a good fight though, allowing for example other cultures, languages, ideas and countries to flourish relatively free in its influence sphere.<p>And there are still competing traditional empires, yearning for the g(l)ory days, of mercantilism and neverending sunsets or worse still revenge, for imagined slights received aeons ago.<p>I honestly do not know how to overcome it, but it certainly seems, that people who experience empires in there daily lifes, suppressed by hierarchies into miserable servitude with no actual control &amp; freedom, are more susceptible to projecting there pride upon these expansionists behemoths.<p>Is all this past any justification for the atrocities of russia against ukraine today? No. Never was. Never will be.
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dvtabout 2 years ago
The article that Grabowski[1] wrote seems <i>extremely</i> heavy-handed and reeks of having an axe to grind. I am no fan of Wikipedia or their incessant edit wars, bad information and bickering, but Prof. Grabowski does not seem tempered in his criticism (going as far as calling out specific editors, which seems unprofessional to say the least).<p>Looking into his sources is also a bit dubious, occasionally providing conclusions as being <i>prima facia</i> obvious, which (at least to me) is hard to swallow given an ultra-charged topic of discourse like the Holocaust. As an example, the &quot;Jew with a Coin&quot; Polish statuette caricature mentioned in the article is certainly offensive and insensitive, but calling it blanket anti-Semitisim needs some evidentiary work (whereas Grabowski considers it an obvious implication).<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.tandfonline.com&#x2F;doi&#x2F;full&#x2F;10.1080&#x2F;25785648.2023.2168939" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.tandfonline.com&#x2F;doi&#x2F;full&#x2F;10.1080&#x2F;25785648.2023.2...</a>
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epolanskiabout 2 years ago
Politics, history, economics and many other fields will always spur debates. Little can be done here and there is no such thing as truth.
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