This isn't as much about <i>place</i> as it is about <i>time</i> and could have easily been entitled, "Why 1950s Parents Are Superior."<p>We were raised in the U.S. in the 50s and 60s much like the French children in the article. We weren't treated like children, but like small adults. There were no children's menus in restaurants. If we wanted to go to out to eat, we dressed and acted properly and ate real food with our parents. If we wanted to go to little league, piano lessons, or anywhere else, we got off our butts and found a way to get there while Dad was at work and Mom was watching younger siblings. We walked to school from age 5. If we were late for dinner, we didn't eat. If we were late getting home at night, we didn't get to go out again. If we wanted money we got a job, not an allowance. If we misbehaved...I don't know what would happen. We didn't misbehave; we just knew better.<p>Most of our cousins and friends were the same, with a few exceptions. That was just the way it was.<p>Then somebody somewhere fucked it all up and now schools are surrounded by parents in minivans picking up special people who never really grow up. No wonder.<p>The French aren't different, just late. Just give them a few more years and they'll fuck it all up, too.
(I'm a first-generation Russian immigrant, raised by Russian parents predominantly in the US.)<p>There is no question, in my experience, that the number one problem in American parenting psychology is the idea that you need to always respond to the kids' immediate needs and to give them attention. It prevents them from learning how to intellectually stimulate themselves, or be alone for any meaningful period of time, both of which are absolutely indispensable survival adaptations for childhood and adult life. The best parenting for the average American parent I've run into is less parenting.<p>I also have the sneaking suspicion that people delay or refrain from having kids here more due to the implied premise that having them is a life-consuming ordeal that totally, completely dominates adult consciousness. It shouldn't do that.<p>Yes, having kids changes your life, but you're still you. You do not live at the pleasure of your child. When hanging out with adult friends with kids, it absolutely astounds me that they end up repeating the same sentence ten times because their kid keeps interrupting them, in a tireless quest for attention. If I did that, my parents would've belted me silly. I guess that's "child abuse" here. Either way, aside from a good spanking, the best thing my parents ever did for me was ignore me a lot. I probably would have turned out to be diagnosed with "ADD" or some other claptrap if they hadn't.
I was what people today might call a "free range" child in the 80s. I interacted with my family mostly at meals and was left to my own devices from a very young age. I was not placated when I threw a tantrum or cried. I was responsible to get to school and back from the time I was 6 (nothing serious: a mile and a half). I made and packed my own school lunches from age 8 on.<p>The line between my world and the adult's world was very clearly defined and it was clear that I had to make my own fun, but the parameters around what I was allowed to do were well defined as well. While I got into some mischief here and there, it had been drilled into me at a young age how a good person behaved and I emulated it.<p>When I tell parents of how I grew up, the reaction almost without exception is complete horror. I have had several women try to console me. One woman told me that my emotional scars must run deep and gave me the number for a psychologist! Needless to say, I don't talk about it much these days.<p>Now I don't know if how I grew up would be traumatic to other children. I do think that parents act like their children's entertainers/servants and try hard to ensure they like them or they're cool or, and this I'll never understand, try to be friends with them.<p>I will say that it worked for me and I don't hate my family for doing it. Quite the opposite in fact.
I think the dichotomy between perceived empowerment and actual empowerment is interesting. Children who are allowed to do "whatever they want" <i>seem</i> empowered, but in actuality, they are disempowered by being deprived of necessary practice in learning important disciplines (patience, long-term planning, etc.)<p>Actually empowering children involves giving them choices, yes, but within a framework that constrains them. "You have a choice to eat the candy now, but at a cost later" teaches a child to make long(er)-term decisions than "do whatever you want". This mirrors the actual experiences they will have later in life, where they will have freedom, but still be required to operate with the bounds of lawful society. (I can buy myself X now, but I will have to save later in order to pay my mortgage, etc.)<p>By refusing to limit children by modeling the realities they will face later in life, adults teach children that consequences are fantasy, often to disastrous results when they grow up.
Emotional manipulation works quite well. This is how I was raised. I had such a strong love for my mom that I didn't want to do anything to hurt or upset her, so when she asked for something kindly I always listened and just did it.<p>My father on the other hand. Typical manipulative, dominating, threatening, intimidating, masculine, control freak. I love him but I'm still recovering from his "parenting style". My relationship with him is permanently damaged. Even now that he's older and his testosterone levels have gone down I still avoid him. A decade of being yelled and screamed at and threatened doesn't just go away. It's always there.<p>I've told him I love him lots of times, I just wish I could tell him how much of an Asshole he was.
I think the story at the end about speaking to your child with conviction and the right tone is spot on.<p>I have a 20 month old daughter. I constantly struggle with this because I want to be nice even when saying 'no', but it doesn't take long to realize that being stern without being scary is the best balance. I realized that my 'no' when she opens the pantry door is totally without conviction and she doesn't respond at all. But my 'no' when she strays off the sidewalk and near the street is obviously much more stern and she knows I'm serious. The most difficult thing is saying 'no' with conviction when you just don't really care that much (like the pantry door).
French here. Indeed the view of the articles seems idealistic, but it rings true in lots of aspects.
If you are interested in learning more about the cultural differences especially around children education, there is a great book written by a French psychoanalyst, now living in the US called l'Autre rive. You can download it for free in French or English on his website <a href="http://www.pbaudry.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.pbaudry.com/</a>
I read it a few years ago before moving to New York, and from my experience, most of it is true. I found it interesting to put words on things we don't necessary noticed and try to find the reasons behind them.
"After about 10 minutes, Leo stopped trying to leave altogether."<p>I think there is another possible explanation: by stopping to chase Leo, it stopped being a game for him. It might not have been her sterner "no" at all.<p>Also I'd like to point out that the French are famous for putting their kids into kindergarden from the age of 3 months. From my perspective (dad of a 16 months old who is still at home) that seems rather cruel.
To focus on restaurant behavior, I'd be curious to know how much time the average French person spends at the table in a day, compared with the average American. I'm sure it varies a lot from family to family, but it seems like Americans (and I'm no exception) rush through their meals, while the French linger and socialize while eating. Maybe that has something to do with French kids being more well behaved in restaurants.
Ugh. So many parents in the US believe to the core of their selves that their children are child-emperors, too rare and delicate to suffer the torture of being denied a single whim.<p>Not to get too "get off my lawn", but when I was a kid, kids didn't rule public spaces the way they do today. Many parents not only won't tell their kids "no" under any circumstances, they freak out if anybody else asks their precious spawn to stop kicking them on airplanes, running into their legs with shopping carts, or shooting BB guns at their home's windows.<p>Also, get off my lawn.
The economist had review last week. A link for those that may be interested.<p><a href="http://www.economist.com/node/21543122" rel="nofollow">http://www.economist.com/node/21543122</a>
French parents learned to ignore, say no to their kids from their parents who learned from their parents and so on. In other words - it might be in their culture. I grew up in India and do find a lot of similarities in my upbringing - our egos were not always served, maybe 30% of times. We had family in US and I noticed - kid's egos in their families were served 90% of the times. As mentioned in the article, kids were ruling their life...whereas in my family it was the other way around. Did it make any difference in the lives of those kids or mine - that's a different topic. My point here is maybe American parents were told to over parent. By whom - not sure, but could be babies r us, or mattelle sponsored studies, or ads on TV to promote products, etc.
My boys grew up this way, in Iowa, in the 90's and 00's. Maybe it has more to do with population density, having a parent at home and a community with shared values.<p>Anyway we ended up with 3 Eagle Scouts, one now a veteran, one a CS graduate from CMU and one a 3-time all-stater in cello. Just regular Iowa country kids. You could trust them with anything - your car, your life savings, your girlfriend.<p>They learned to work hard at a young age (6-8) at home, at church and on their Uncle's farm; to get themselves organized for school from the start; to clean a bathroom and do dishes. We never talked down to them.<p>Their friends work hard with a smile, want nothing more than to be treated as an adult. Its easier I guess when their friends share the same goals, the lessons seem natural and normal.<p>We did this consciously, left the big city when they were old enough to feel limited by sidewalks and malls, and bought land in Iowa where I grew up. I don't think that's all necessary or possible for everyone. But it sure helped!
Very interesting essay. I'm not sure if this is a "French get parenting right" as much as it is "American parenting is screwed up". I'm from Brazil myself, and it's worrying to see that, together with the latest economic changes (higher income), parenting is getting more distant to what she describes to happen in France, and is starting to shaping up the same problems seen in USA. I from a 80's generation and had an education close to what she describes, but nowadays parents work overhours to try to afford an expensive lifestyle, kids are raised by nannies and they basically play videogame the whole day. I'm sure this lifestyle doesn't allow kids to educate themselves with so many distractions and instant gratification around, and in an atmosphere that demands so much from parents (working overhours instead of enjoying the family, having time free for friends, dinners, etc.).
I much prefer the Guardian's "Digested Read" version of this book: <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/jan/29/digested-read-french-children-dont-throw" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/jan/29/digested-read-fr...</a>
The problem is that well-behaved doesn't equate to better children.<p>To quote the YC application form "Please tell us about the time you most successfully hacked some (non-computer) system to your advantage."<p>Creativity, rule-bending and being outspoken are often hallmarks of innovators and entrepreneurs. But obviously patience and obedience are virtues as well. Culturally we have to make trade-offs deciding which of these we want to encourage in kids and which we don't.<p>It's silly to pretend there's just one way that's better across the board. TMTOWTDI.
I've been reading up recently on dog training since I'm watching my parents' unruly dog for a few weeks and it's remarkable how similar the keys to training a well-behaved dog are to how the french treat their kids... I'm not entirely sure how to feel about that, hah.
I would be curious if one could quantify this by perhaps traveling on several domestic flights in the US and in France of similar lengths and record how often a child cries to see if there is a statistically significant difference between the two countries.
This is a good example of creating a utopia to explore everything that is disliked about a status quo.<p>The article is almost entirely anecdotal with little offered to back up supposition and conjecture.
french superiority? this article is based on the anecdotes of an out-of-touch expat, who has spent too much time in the company of privileged Parisians.<p>last time i was in France the general atmosphere was similar to this music video <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU7bFpPJiww" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU7bFpPJiww</a>, teenagers
burning down their own city etc. heh.
yeah exactly! its because you see <i>they're french so they do it right</i>!<p>no one else tell their kids to say "thanks, please", and no one else dares to say no to whatever stupid things kids might want!<p>Exactly. Only the French educate their children.<p>Guess what. Half the people don't educate the children, half of them do. Or maybe it's 2/3. Who cares. The point is it has strictly nothing to do with being French.<p>(I'm French.)
I've found this true in most places in (continental) Europe. I spent 4 years living in Vienna, Austria and was initially shocked & then spoiled by how well-behaved the kids there are. It'd become simply the normal background for me, but I was reminded of it again when a friend visited between Christmas and New Year's and we went to a v. large thermal spa outside of Vienna and were surrounded by children at the indoor pool.<p>She said, "Funny that there aren't any kids here." I said, "There are tons of them! Just look!"<p>Not only were there at least 30 teenagers of various ages, there were more than 10 young children under 5, including one infant in arms. All were so calm and quiet that she didn't even know they were there. Not that the occasional toddler didn't try to run away from her parents -- I saw it happening -- but everything was chill. No screeching. No tantrums. No "COME BACK HERE!".<p>It didn't stand out to me cuz I got used to it, but my friend was flabbergasted.<p>Austrians love their kids and treat them kindly and with respect, but never do the kids get the idea that they are the entirety of the adults' world. (Which sounds harsh at first, but that kind of relationship is truly codependent and bad for everyone.)
A previous article about how chinese mothers are better created quite a stir. Is there some sort of parenting crisis in the US that leads to this kind of soul-searching? (I m not in the US, so i'm curious to know)
Not that my sample size is that huge, but to counter this article, my girlfriend is an elementary school teacher, in the US, but in a VERY multicultural school. Apparently the one French kid in class is the biggest little snotty shit, and his parents are mad uptight.