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What you give up by moving into engineering management

213 pointsby karlhughesabout 2 years ago

26 comments

abtinfabout 2 years ago
The biggest thing most managers give up is their mind.<p>You start using corporate jargon. You become more authoritarian. You embrace careerism (a term I invented to describe people who erroneously conflate rising in corporate rank with happiness). You quickly learn that no one understands anything about the people or the business--and that all decisions are made by gut, cherry picked data, and story-telling. Suddenly, you&#x27;ll be afraid to disagree.<p>Your only job as a manager is to protect and develop the team under you. You must actually like people and have a fundamentally benevolent worldview. You must be willing to say &quot;I don&#x27;t know&quot; 10x more than as an IC. You must believe deep down in your core that <i>ordering</i> a human being to do something is a sign you must introspect about your failure as a manager, and commit to fixing the problem.<p>You must be prepared to tell your own manager to go kick rocks. Ambiguous situations are one thing, but you must never, ever knowingly do the the <i>wrong</i> thing. Everyone will know when you do it, and that will be the beginning of the end of your own happiness.<p>All other approaches will lead to you failing to deliver results, failing to retain, and a drag on the org.<p>The error I have seen most engineers-turn-manager make is they had a deep dissatisfaction with other terrible managers, so now its their chance to make the right decisions and do things their way.
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getoffmyyawnabout 2 years ago
After being drafted into Engineering Management from 3 IC roles in a row, I decided to jump in with enthusiasm. My primary motivation is that I&#x27;ve had bad engineering managers and a couple of great ones and I want to be like the great ones.<p>Along the way I have studied a lot about how to manage people in a positive way. I learned coaching and that has helped me help others grow in their career which I find very rewarding!<p>As an engineering leader I have 2 primary goals: 1. Enable the team to deliver top quality work. 2. Do everything I can to make this a great place to be a software engineer. I filter every decision I make with these goals. If doesn&#x27;t move us closer to both of them then its probably not the right decision.<p>I do miss full time coding but I have hobby projects and I do monthly games and challenges with the team with the goal of all of us having fun while learning something useful and&#x2F;or interesting.<p>Honestly, it&#x27;s a completely different job as an Engineering Manager vs being an IC. What you give up is replaced by what you gain. If you like helping people be their best and achieve big things, it can be very rewarding.
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bl4ckm0r3about 2 years ago
I have been a swe for most of my life then transitioned into a manager (corporate and small&#x2F;mid startups) for a while and am a director now (scaleup unicorn). The politics is something that always bothers me, the higher you get in the ladder, the more people are obsessed by &quot;just following the process&quot;, and there&#x27;s always so many inefficient processes that are applied in environments that definitely do not require such overkill, but make people feel like they are &quot;doing the right thing&quot; by following as many processes as possible - if you follow the rules you don&#x27;t have to think. Hours and hours of group meetings (that definitely could have been a slack message, with better outcomes), so many reports no one read, different and often incompatible styles of management, a complete switch from trust-and-ownership to micromanagement from upper management. But the thing that always bothered me the most is being in the middle between the people you care about (your team) and the people that tell you to do things because they can&#x27;t be bothered actually doing them (upper management).<p>I still miss those days where I could put my headphones on and code, solve real problems with my team, ideate and create and focus on the user, not on &quot;making the machine run&quot;.
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elzbardicoabout 2 years ago
To be frank? long term employability and short term job security.<p>The lower levels of management are terrible because you don&#x27;t actually manage much, and become just a glorified bellboy for upper management, passing messages back and forth.<p>At the same time, due to disuse, your technical skills atrophy. So, it soon becomes a race to climb the corporate ladder or die.
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nerdileabout 2 years ago
I think the author&#x27;s experience is more true in smaller companies or startups. In the big tech companies especially, high-band senior or principal engineers are expected to lead through influence (without being anyone&#x27;s boss) and have to make these exact same tradeoffs effectively to succeed. You can coast as a senior in many places if you want to just deliver by yourself, but you won&#x27;t get further.<p>Also note that the author points out that he chose to make many of these tradeoffs not from being a manager, but when he got older and chose to refocus on his family. This is a tradeoff many people have to make whether they are a people manager or not.
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OldGuyInTheClubabout 2 years ago
I quit managing because I couldn&#x27;t stomach the language managers are required to speak. The cliches, the obfuscation, the outright lying when relaying the c__p coming from above, the list goes on.
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swapsCAPSabout 2 years ago
I recently naturally grew into a management role due to seniority and churn. I cannot wait to get back to becoming an IC again. All these meeting are tiring and unrewarding. Growing team members is pretty rewarding, but I don&#x27;t have to be a manager for that. Disagree with OP on giving up control of the code base. You are still responsible for the quality the team delivers and in many companies your seniority will mean you&#x27;ll still code review. You just no longer have the time to actively steer. Not a nice position IMO
funnyfoobarabout 2 years ago
I can resonate with this a lot as I am a newly minted Staff Engineer.<p>You really need to block the times to focus, so you hopefully still get to solve some interesting things.<p>Most of my time is spent on setting the direction, cross team collaboration, managing different stakeholders in the higher, backlog refinements and pre-refinements. I tend to pick up small 1 point story tickets which are not on the critical path to stay in touch with ground reality.<p>You also have to be an adult in the room, even though you are not wrt age. Got to deal with kindness and patience.
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JoeAltmaierabout 2 years ago
Your self-respect?<p>Honestly, going from contributing actual results, you are now just measuring results and browbeating intelligent folk into producing more results.<p>Simultaneously you find yourself trying to maximize your budget and minimize your deliverables to make numbers look good, while understanding that both these things are bad for the customers and bad for the stockholders.
0zemp1cabout 2 years ago
First level management is not a great place to be...these are the folks Zuck told to go back to IC or leave<p>At the first level, you have zero actual power. All you are doing is conducting perfunctory 1:1s and signing time-off forms. But you also aren&#x27;t an IC and slowly fall out of the dev mindset and your skills atrophy<p>My boss has been a first level manager for years...if he&#x27;s ever laid off he is in big trouble...he never really managed anything and he no longer codes
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latteabout 2 years ago
The majority of the content and comments on HN tell about the benefits of remaining an IC and not moving into management.<p>Why do people need to convince each other _not_ to move into management by content like this?<p>To get a balanced view - what are the advantages of becoming a manager? What are the rewarding parts of managing people?
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devnullbrainabout 2 years ago
&gt;Unfortunately, I also needed to unblock my team so that progress wouldn’t grind to a halt whenever I decided to work on a new feature. Eventually, I figured out that I couldn’t take on projects in the “critical path,”<p>This is a important lesson. As an IC, it&#x27;s hugely frustrating to be blocked on your own work because the gatekeeper is busy working on something more important. If the manager is the only person you can trust with the important work, something is broken.<p>There&#x27;s just not enough time in the day to do 8 hours of IC work if you&#x27;re also responsible for reviewing 8 hours of work from N reports. You are a thread consuming a queue.
syndacksabout 2 years ago
If you draw a Venn Diagram, with one circle being technical skills and the other circle being leadership skills, the intersection is engineering management. Unfortunately this is not a natural combination for most people, and it’s why there are so many bad engineering managers out there.
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throwawaaarrghabout 2 years ago
I&#x27;ve actually given up all of these things years ago, and I&#x27;m an IC. Maybe I&#x27;d be fine as a manager. I give zero shits about placating my ego by being the smartest person in the room. I want everyone else on the team to make their own decisions, learn lessons, and be actively contributing in all ways. And honestly, most problems and imperfections are fine. Let people do something in a crappy way. It will eventually help the entire team, as counter-intuitive as that seems.
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jader201about 2 years ago
I moved from IC to manager for four years before moving back, and can agree with the points made here. Including the one about it being fairly easy to move back.<p>Some ICs may find they are actually better managers, and some will find out they were better at being an IC.<p>Others will find both satisfying in different ways, and may work out well on either ladder.<p>I may go back to being a manager some day, but for the time, I’m enjoying being an IC again.<p>If you’re fortunate enough to work at a company that affords you the flexibility, and you’re given the opportunity, I recommend trying it out, after you’ve read and ack’ed the tradeoffs in this article.<p>But if these tradoffs sound miserable to you, don’t bother; there are plenty of good opportunities as an IC — if not at your current gig, then at another one. And if not now, then later (when the economy improves).
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domhabout 2 years ago
This pretty much summarises my experience, especially the fragmented days and the lack of short feedback cycles. As someone who TDDs as much as I can, the dopamine rush of seeing a piece of code go from nothing to complete is something I found tough to replace in management.<p>I thoroughly enjoyed the mentorship and relationship building aspects though and it is really great to get to know people on a deeper level. I switched back to being an IC about a year ago, and I do miss the 1:1s with the team.<p>I moved back to being an IC due to the sheer amount of other things going on in my life (moving countries, having a kid etc). I needed the comfort of doing something I felt deeply familiar with. Definitely like the idea of swinging back to management at some point in the future though.
irrationalabout 2 years ago
I have a good friend at the Fortune 100 company we work for who move into engineering management. He hated it. Unfortunately, he was very good at it so it took years for him to convince them to let him move back to an IC role. Even after that, they kept looking to him to make management level decisions, which he had to flat out refuse to do until they finally learned that he really was an IC again. It was so much stress trying to get back into an IC role that he has been looking for new jobs outside the company.
topologieabout 2 years ago
Interesting article...<p>As a side note, I have noticed that sometimes people that move into management from a technical position seem to not be fully aware that management is not only about managing projects and keeping track of people timely executing a project, and&#x2F;or giving some guidance when a project gets a bit blocked, but also about growing people to their fullest potential and trying to understand how to integrate these people&#x27;s unique abilities into a more cohesive whole, instead of different parts who do exactly what you want them to do, not holistically at all.<p>There&#x27;s also a big empathic component to the job that I have noticed some people with technical backgrounds seem to lack. It&#x27;s almost as if there&#x27;s a tradeoff pattern of sorts: &quot;Good Technically, Bad with People&quot; vs &quot;Good with People, Bad Technically.&quot; I would even dare say that I think the second version is better, since it&#x27;s easier for people to grow technically than it is for them to grow emotionally... At least that&#x27;s what I&#x27;ve perceived in the past...<p>I&#x27;ve met people who are technically magnificent, were amazing individual contributors, and who can plan a project perfectly but who just seem to me to not be able to properly handle the more human side of the equation. They treat people more like tools than actual complex humans... This leads to just &quot;good enough&quot; workgroups that get the job done, but not fully fledged integrated teams that can innovate and actually grow in a more efficient manner.<p>I urge everyone who is either a manager or is thinking about moving into a managerial position to check out:<p>Creativity, Inc.: Overcoming the Unseen Forces That Stand in the Way of True Inspiration<p>by Ed Catmull, co-founder of Pixar. He is the perfect example of how a technical person can become a great manager in every single way, and the book gives really clear guidance on how to follow the same path.<p>Last thing: A bit more technical, but the following article&#x2F;paper is a bit connected: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;necsi.edu&#x2F;a-mathematical-theory-of-interpersonal-interactions-and-group-behavior" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;necsi.edu&#x2F;a-mathematical-theory-of-interpersonal-int...</a>
wunderlandabout 2 years ago
Most ICs in the organizations I’ve worked on have to fight for focus time, have long feedback cycles, have to deal with conflicts, etc. At least with a manager you’re getting paid more! The risk is slightly higher but the reward is significantly higher; you’re taking credit for a larger amount of work, but doing the same amount of work yourself (maybe sometimes more, but also often significantly less than an IC).<p>Management is easier than coding unless you really hate working with other people.
JohnFenabout 2 years ago
Indeed. I&#x27;ve never been interested in management at all, because it would take me away from doing what I actually enjoy doing.<p>I&#x27;ve done it when necessary, though, in my own companies. But it&#x27;s No Fun. I see many jobs around me and think &quot;I don&#x27;t understand why anyone would want to do that, but I&#x27;m happy that someone does&quot;, and management positions are among them.
raygelogicabout 2 years ago
one things that&#x27;s missing is the ability to ignore politics. you have to know what hills to die on, when to enforce boundaries, when to back off, etc. also, having to make decisions, argue for them, and be accountable to them, without fully understanding all the details. I found these things to be far and away the most stressful parts of management.
svilen_dobrevabout 2 years ago
i also read that Manager&#x27;s path book, when finaly moving into managerial role, and the thing that struck me was: you cannot be friends with (your) people anymore.<p>initialy i thought - WTF?<p>Sadly, it is true. Any friendship you form - or had - would be misinterpreted, by someone.<p>ah
watwutabout 2 years ago
Good relationships with people. Compared to engineers, managers have mostly bad relationships between them. And engineers will be under you, so you cant be friends the way you used to be either.
alexanderscottabout 2 years ago
surprisingly I didn’t see anything in here about managerial responsibilities of big decisions involving company $$. budgeting, vendor &amp; contract negotiation, build vs buy, etc. I found this to be one of the starkest differences and all a bit unnerving when I made the transition from staff IC to manager. will say that having a good boss and mentor helped a lot with the feelings of imposter syndrome.
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bigbacaloaabout 2 years ago
&quot;What you give up when moving into engineering management&quot; = your soul.
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anontechlead298about 2 years ago
I&#x27;d argue that being accountable for technical decisions, and losing touch with the codebase and your own technical skills, is just plain dangerous.<p>All of the greatest managers that I&#x27;ve reported to were able to (1) call &quot;bullshit&quot; when work was subpar, and (2) drop in, right down to the codebase, when it was clear that something was at risk. This whole culture of &quot;accepting that different people will do things in different ways, so you should let go of your will to stay close to the tech&#x2F;PRs&quot; just seems overly sensitive to the elephant in the room: manage your time better, so that you can stay technically relevant.<p>How are you supposed to be accountable for technical deliveries, if you&#x27;ve got no expertise in the field and the codebase? How can you break up your vision into a set of executable subtasks, if you have not the faintest idea where one subtask should start and the other should end? And therefore, how can you enable your team to deliver on your or the organisation&#x27;s vision? How do you come up with even remotely plausible timelines? Of course you need the people-centric managerial skills too, else, nobody is going to be motivated to work under you and help you execute. But, the key is, the people under you need to respect your technical skills as well as your empathy and managerial skills.<p>I&#x27;m concerned that the perpetuation of this trope of &quot;you&#x27;re _encouraged_ to lose your technical acumen as an engineering manager, it&#x27;s OK!&quot; is going to result in MORE of a common failure I&#x27;ve observed: the non-technical pure manager. They were recognised for good people skills amidst a sea of purely introverted coders, and are now tasked with managing junior to mid-level developers. They jumped on it, because writing code was always something they struggled with, and management is &quot;prestigious&quot;.<p>This is a recipe for disaster. Unrealistic promises made to stakeholders. Deadlines inevitably get pushed down to the developers. And of course, these managers will (a) NOT be capable of noticing broken windows in the codebase or delivery&#x2F;CI processes, and (b) NOT be able to suggest pathways out of them. So guess what happens? Shortcuts are taken. The codebase suffers more. The shortcuts are then relied upon for critical functionality, and you can&#x27;t unwind them easily. Oh joy.<p>So there&#x27;s the &quot;engineering manager&quot;, who maybe was good at coding at some point, but has since &quot;needed&quot; to lose their edge. Hopefully they have a good tech to delegate most of the major decisions to. There&#x27;s the &quot;IC&quot;, who is still busily coding...<p>...But there&#x27;s a 3rd path here that&#x27;s not often mentioned: the &quot;scout&#x2F;squad leader&quot; team lead. It&#x27;s a great blend of hands-on work, leadership and management. You&#x27;re, at most, one level up from the actual developers. You&#x27;re the person in the squad that runs first, not the Army General shouting orders over intercom.<p>You&#x27;re management. You&#x27;re also IC (for non-critical path items!). You&#x27;ll use your experience to explore the terrain before your comrades. You&#x27;ll know when you need to scaffold prototypes, and even suggest initial stubs and interfaces for your team to implement. You&#x27;ll also know when this is in good hands, and can stand back. You&#x27;ll be able to offer meaningful advice to unblock your team, beyond &quot;just pair with Jill, she&#x27;s done this before, I&#x27;ll make sure she&#x27;s free&quot;. The point is: you _can_ drop in when you need to, if &quot;Jill&quot; isn&#x27;t free and is doing something super-important. You&#x27;ll know exactly where the gaps in the team are, and therefore who to hire.<p>You&#x27;ve seen the pitfalls before. You&#x27;ve seen what a good engineering process looks like. You&#x27;ll be able to come up with target state for technical problems, but (unlike your pure-IC friends), you&#x27;ll have both the influence and the necessary skills to break that down into sub-tasks that can be _executed by a team_. You are where you are because you have (1) good technical skills, (2) good people and comms skills, and (3) at some point in your career, realised that your visions cannot be executed in a timely manner by a single individual.<p>Your time management needs to be bulletproof. If your schedule is fully booked with meetings, (i.e. you&#x27;ve got 7 hours of meetings booked in an 8 hour day), then that&#x27;s on you. Personally, if I have more than a few hours of meetings booked a day, I am re-scheduling, rejecting, or suggesting alternate times. I owe it to the other members of that meeting to give it my 100%. Also, every time I make a commitment to either myself or someone else, I&#x27;m blocking out time in my diary to actually _make through on that commitment_ (whether its &quot;Review John&#x27;s latest PR&quot; or &quot;Pre-refine tickets for next sprint&quot;). This (1) makes it look like my diary is fully booked (like a &quot;good manager&quot; is supposed to have), and (2) makes it clear if it&#x27;s a realistic commitment (so I can manage expectations), and (3) makes it clear to me what will slip if I have to accept some &quot;bullshit&quot; meeting, so I can manage expectations accordingly.<p>All of this can be learnt, and it doesn&#x27;t blunt your coding skills. I just don&#x27;t buy this &quot;Engineering Manager or IC - choose your adventure!&quot; myth that our industry seems to perpetuate.