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The Two Cultures (1959) [pdf]

110 pointsby raviksharmaabout 2 years ago

16 comments

karaterobotabout 2 years ago
&gt; Once or twice I have been provoked and have asked the company how many of them could describe the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The response was cold: it was also negative. Yet I was asking something which is the scientific equivalent of: Have you read a work of Shakespeare&#x27;s?<p>But that&#x27;s not quite true, is it. In the one case, he&#x27;s asking someone to <i>explain</i> a very specific thing (one particular physical law), and in the other you&#x27;re asking if they have been <i>exposed</i> to any example from a large set of things (any of Shakespeare&#x27;s plays). If he&#x27;d asked &quot;how many of you have <i>heard</i> of the Second Law of Thermodynamics&quot;, or if he&#x27;d asked &quot;how many of you can describe the plot of Coriolanus&quot; the questions would be closer to equivalent.<p>Nitpicky, but relevant in the sense that it&#x27;s not a fair example as originally stated.
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sodaplayerabout 2 years ago
During my CS degree, I had an opportunity to take a course which sought to bridge these two cultures. The class was described as a kinetic art and embedded systems class opened to EE, CE, CS and art students.<p>We&#x27;d study some essays like Snow&#x27;s &quot;The Two Cultures&quot; and create reports on contemporary artists before breaking up into groups consisting of both engineering and art students with the goal of designing and implementing kinetic art. Coming from the engineering side, it was fun for me to get the chance to experience an academic art setting, and I think the class overall helped me overcome being immediately dismissive of more conceptual art as well as showing me tools and the frame of mind to approach and appreciate art.<p>For the artists, I think the goal of our professor was to build some technical literacy, and provide them with the technology that could inspire them, expanding their breadth of what could be feasibly done.<p>Though like this essay, the relationship between the two cultures could seem like it would turn adversarial or pretentious or dismissive, but I believe everyone in the class had a great time, and were all just excited to create things together.
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agnosticmantisabout 2 years ago
Related articles in math and stats communities:<p>- The Two Cultures of Mathematics by Tim Gowers: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.dpmms.cam.ac.uk&#x2F;~wtg10&#x2F;2cultures.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.dpmms.cam.ac.uk&#x2F;~wtg10&#x2F;2cultures.pdf</a><p>Discusses theory builders (think algebra) vs. problem solvers (think combinatorics) in mathematics, and how the latter have been sort of marginalized and under-appreciated in the community.<p>- Statistical Modeling: The Two Cultures by the legendary Leo Breiman<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;projecteuclid.org&#x2F;journals&#x2F;statistical-science&#x2F;volume-16&#x2F;issue-3&#x2F;Statistical-Modeling--The-Two-Cultures-with-comments-and-a&#x2F;10.1214&#x2F;ss&#x2F;1009213726.full" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;projecteuclid.org&#x2F;journals&#x2F;statistical-science&#x2F;volum...</a><p>Discusses predictive modeling (think random forests and NNs) vs. statistical inference (think null hypothesis significance testing), and how the former have been under-appreciated in the stats community, to the detriment of statisticians.<p>Both very fun reads by two giants.
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zoogenyabout 2 years ago
I get confused who is complaining about who. It reminds me of the two Spiderman meme where each are pointing at each other [1].<p>Most recently, I was watching an interview with Iain McGilchrist. His thesis in &quot;The Master and His Emissary&quot; is that our society has veered too far towards the intellectual. According to his thesis, scientific concerns are dominating our decision making processes. The ills in society are caused by the exclusion of &quot;right brain&quot; or intuitive thinking in modern governance and in the general culture of modern society.<p>I don&#x27;t really have an opinion on who is right or wrong. I can&#x27;t really say if scientists lack sufficient knowledge about humanities subjects or visa versa. But it does feel like each side is pointing the finger at the other side.<p>It doesn&#x27;t even matter what side you support, e.g. if you think McGilchrist is a crank or an apologist for a particular kind of reactionary element that is taking over populist rhetoric. There can be no movement towards a middle-ground when both sides insist that they are the ones being misunderstood and oppressed.<p>1. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;knowyourmeme.com&#x2F;memes&#x2F;spider-man-pointing-at-spider-man" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;knowyourmeme.com&#x2F;memes&#x2F;spider-man-pointing-at-spider...</a>
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dangabout 2 years ago
Related:<p><i>The Two Cultures and The Scientific Revolution (1959) [pdf]</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=30203398" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=30203398</a> - Feb 2022 (2 comments)<p><i>C.P. Snow – The Two Cultures</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=19328386" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=19328386</a> - March 2019 (1 comment)<p><i>The Two Cultures and the Scientific Revolution</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=12568791" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=12568791</a> - Sept 2016 (1 comment)<p><i>The Two Cultures</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=6560085" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=6560085</a> - Oct 2013 (80 comments)<p><i>The Two Cultures and the Scientific Revolution</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=1025501" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=1025501</a> - Jan 2010 (1 comment)<p><i>Are We Beyond the Two Cultures?</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=598451" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=598451</a> - May 2009 (1 comment)
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dangabout 2 years ago
The submitted URL was <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;The_Two_Cultures" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;The_Two_Cultures</a> but I think we can handle the actual lecture, so I&#x27;ve switched to a copy of that above.
ZunarJ5about 2 years ago
This is starting to trend in the opposite direction, however I find the problem is more along these lines: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;massivesci.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;chaos-in-the-brickyard-comic-matteo-farinella&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;massivesci.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;chaos-in-the-brickyard-comic...</a>
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javajoshabout 2 years ago
Another quote which gets to the heart of it, I think:<p><i>&gt;I remember G.H. Hardy remarking to me in the 30&#x27;s with some mild puzzlement: &#x27;Have you noticed how the word &quot;intellectual&quot; is used nowadays? There seems to be a new definition that doesn&#x27;t include Rutherford or Eddington or Dirac or Adrian or me.&#x27;</i><p>Its scientists complaining about not being accepted by the &quot;cool kids&quot;. A tale as old as time.
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jhbadgerabout 2 years ago
I think the issue is far greater than just two cultures. Yes, people from the humanities and the sciences have problems talking to each other, but people in different fields of science do too. And not just major differences like chemists talking to biologists -- I mean even biologists from different subfields.
slushhabout 2 years ago
In hindsight, he has misjudged the situation. Scientific education is not the key. If we accept that there are only two cultures, then the Russian decline shows that focusing on science was the wrong choice.<p>&gt;Anyway, the Russians have judged what kind and number of educated men and women a country needs to come out top in the scientific revolution. I am going to oversimplify, but their estimate, and I believe it&#x27;s pretty near right<p>&gt;As the scientific revolution goes on, the call for these men will be something we haven&#x27;t imagined, though the Russians have.<p>&gt;If our ancestors had invested talent in the industrial revolution instead of the Indian Empire, we might be more soundly based now. But they didn&#x27;t.
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wrpabout 2 years ago
I derive these comments from the introduction by Stefan Collini (a lit professor) in the Cambridge UP edition of &quot;The Two Cultures&quot;. (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Two-Cultures-Canto-Classics&#x2F;dp&#x2F;1107606144" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Two-Cultures-Canto-Classics&#x2F;dp&#x2F;110760...</a>)<p>Snow had a PhD in chemistry, but dropped out of science early on to write popular novels and to become a very successful bureaucrat. He had originally intended to call this lecture &quot;The Rich and the Poor&quot;, because he was arguing about who was best qualified to govern society and solve the problems of the Third World.<p>The gist of the speech is that the traditional elites of society are not competent to govern because all they know about is the classics. He thinks only a scientific background can create a wise leader. If only a large enough percentage of the population would get a technical education, then society would become rational.<p>His position was extremely naive and never seriously accepted as he put it. The subsequent use of the term &quot;two cultures&quot; to mean a disjunction of the humanistic and scientific approaches to knowledge is not quite what he meant. He was railing against traditionalism and venting a deep animosity toward England&#x27;s literary society.<p>A quote from William James:<p><i>Of all the insufficient authorities as to the total nature of reality, give me the &quot;scientists&quot; . . . Their interests are most incomplete and their professional conceit and bigotry immense. I know of no narrower sect or club, in spite of their excellent authority in the line of fact they have explored, and their splendid achievements there.</i>
vmilnerabout 2 years ago
‘I remember G. H. Hardy once remarking to me in mild puzzlement, some time in the 1930s: &quot;Have you noticed how the word &#x27;intellectual&#x27; is used nowadays? There seems to be a new definition which certainly doesn&#x27;t include Rutherford or Eddington or Dirac or Adrian or me. It does seem rather odd, don&#x27;t y&#x27;know?&quot;.’<p><pre><code> - C. P. Snow</code></pre>
prottogabout 2 years ago
Since the Industrial Revolution, scientific progress has far outstripped progress in the humanities. We&#x27;ve gotten very good at answering the how, but not the why (or why not).
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pitchedabout 2 years ago
&gt; So the great edifice of modern physics goes up, and the majority of the cleverest people in the western world have about as much insight into it as their neolithic ancestors would have had.<p>This is a very nice way to try and explain Dilbert-style Pointy Haired Bosses.
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photochemsynabout 2 years ago
&gt; &#x27;Once or twice I have been provoked and have asked the company how many of them could describe the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The response was cold: it was also negative. Yet I was asking something which is about the scientific equivalent of &quot;Have you read a work of Shakespare&#x27;s?&quot;&#x27;<p>It&#x27;s right there in Yeats, which the author also references:<p>&gt; &quot;Turning and turning in the widening gyre &#x2F; The falcon cannot hear the falconer &#x2F; Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold &#x2F;&quot;<p>Carl Sagan&#x27;s Pale Blue Dot image (14 February 1990) is rather deceptive when it comes to understanding the story of life on earth in the context of the fundamental laws of thermodynamics, but here it is:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.planetary.org&#x2F;worlds&#x2F;pale-blue-dot" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.planetary.org&#x2F;worlds&#x2F;pale-blue-dot</a><p>Let&#x27;s say we took that planet and dropped it out to the orbit of Pluto, which we also now have some great imagery of. Pluto is indeed chemically active, it turns out, in the subzero real of nitrogen ices and so on. Hence a better picture would be a transit of Earth across the Sun from say, the perspective of Mars:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Transit_of_Earth_from_Mars" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Transit_of_Earth_from_Mars</a><p>&gt; &quot;No one has ever seen a transit of Earth from Mars, but the next transit will take place on November 10, 2084. The last such transit took place on May 11, 1984.&quot;<p>The only reason life developed on the &#x27;pale blue dot&#x27; was that it was at a fairly optimal distance from our local star, which is pouring energy out into space at a ridiculous level relative to the amount captured by this tiny planet. That huge flood of energy is what allows life to swim upstream against the tide of entropy, aka the Second Law, by using that energy to create complex structures of only fleeting permanence, but eventually humans learned to use excess plant production to feed the literary geniuses who created the great works of imagination. Genetic information transfer was the imperfect mechanism (note all species go extinct over time) behind this story.<p>In literary-vs-science &#x27;two-culture&#x27; terms, a return to sun-worship is a nice way of closing the gap. The Egyptians seem to have adopted the concept for ~150 human generations, maybe they were smarter than we are?
pmoriartyabout 2 years ago
Claude&#x27;s[1] critique of The Two Cultures:<p>Here are some critiques of CP Snow&#x27;s The Two Cultures:<p>1. It oversimplifies the relationship between science and humanities. Snow frames it as a polarization between the &quot;two cultures&quot; of science and literature, but in reality there are many connections, overlaps, and interactions between the fields.<p>2. It ignores the social sciences. Snow focuses mainly on natural science vs. literature, but ignores fields like psychology, sociology, economics, and political science that don&#x27;t cleanly fit into either category.<p>3. It employs a deficit model. Snow portrays humanities scholars as lacking an understanding of science, rather than recognizing that both fields have different but legitimate areas of expertise.<p>4. It is Eurocentric. Snow&#x27;s view of &quot;culture&quot; is rooted mainly in Western European traditions of science and literature. It ignores non-Western cultures and knowledge systems.<p>5. It frames science as value-neutral and objective while implying that humanities are value-laden and subjective. Many scholars argue that science is also shaped by social and cultural values.<p>6. It may exaggerate the gulf between the two cultures. While there are differences, there is also significant overlapping membership, shared influences, and common aims between scientists and humanities scholars.<p>7. It is dated. Snow&#x27;s analysis, written in 1959, does not reflect many of the recent interactions and intersections between science and humanities that have emerged since then.<p>---<p>On the last point, Claude elaborates:<p>... here are some ways that CP Snow&#x27;s The Two Cultures has become more dated since it was published in 1959:<p>1. Increased interdisciplinary work: There has been a major growth in interdisciplinary research that integrates methods and insights from both science and humanities. Fields like science and technology studies, cognitive literary studies, and neurohumanities have emerged.<p>2. Collaboration between scientists and humanists: There are many more examples today of scientists and humanities scholars working together on collaborative projects. This was less common when Snow was writing.<p>3. Science in humanities curriculum: Many humanities programs now incorporate more history, philosophy and social aspects of science into their curriculum. Students are exposed to both fields more holistically.<p>4. Humanities in science curriculum: There is a growing trend of incorporating ethics, communication and other humanities topics into science education as well. This helps develop more well-rounded scientists.<p>5. Porous boundaries: The traditional boundaries between disciplines have become more porous, allowing for ideas, methods and approaches to cross-pollinate between fields.<p>6. Broader public discourse: There is a more nuanced and sophisticated public discourse around science, technology and society that incorporates both scientific and humanistic perspectives.<p>7. Advances in technology: Rapid technological changes, like the internet and AI, have created new intersections and dialogues between science and humanities that Snow could not have envisioned.<p>So in general, over the past 60 years since The Two Cultures was published, there has been a massive increase in interaction, dialogue and integration between science and humanities. The traditional &quot;gulf&quot; that Snow described has become far more complex, multidirectional and dynamic. The metaphor of &quot;two cultures&quot; has become less relevant and useful to describe modern academia and intellectual life.<p>[1] - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;poe.com&#x2F;Claude-instant" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;poe.com&#x2F;Claude-instant</a>