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The Cathedral and the Bazaar (1999)

241 pointsby wallflowerabout 2 years ago

16 comments

tptacekabout 2 years ago
Just taken on its merits, I think a case can be made that this is one of the most overrated pieces of technical writing of the last 25 years. What&#x27;s true in it isn&#x27;t interesting (&quot;the importance of having users&quot;, &quot;release early release often&quot;) and what&#x27;s interesting isn&#x27;t true (&quot;Linus&#x27;s law&quot; being perhaps the most notorious example). Much of the insight is taken directly from Brooks. The whole piece has as its backdrop the development of Fetchmail, which is not a well-regarded piece of software.<p>What&#x27;s notable about Cathedral is its timing; it did capture the zeitgeist of what was an important moment in the computing field, the moment where we transitioned from 386bsd-style hobby projects to an industry run on free and open source software. But Raymond isn&#x27;t the reason why any of that happened, and much of his description of that moment is faulty; the rest of it is just a retrospective of the engineering decisions involved in the writing of a midlist mail processing utility (fetchmailrc syntax, password encryption, the now-largely-irrelevant distinctions between MDAs and MTAs).<p>Even the high-level organizing notion of &quot;cathedrals&quot; and &quot;bazaars&quot;, which should have been a lay-up, hasn&#x27;t really proven out.
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dangabout 2 years ago
Related (surprisingly little over the years) - others?<p><i>The Cathedral and the Bazaar (1999)</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=35829361" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=35829361</a> - May 2023 (2 comments)<p><i>On Management and the Maginot Line</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=33314682" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=33314682</a> - Oct 2022 (27 comments)<p><i>The Cathedral and the Bazaar</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=16328219" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=16328219</a> - Feb 2018 (1 comment)<p><i>The Cathedral and the Bazaar (2000)</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=12198625" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=12198625</a> - July 2016 (1 comment)<p><i>Eric Raymond&#x27;s &#x27;The Cathedral and the Bazaar&#x27; Turns 19</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=11754279" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=11754279</a> - May 2016 (57 comments)<p><i>Revisiting the many eyes theory</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=8416597" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=8416597</a> - Oct 2014 (1 comment)<p><i>A Second look at the Cathedral and the Bazaar (1999)</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=1222945" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=1222945</a> - March 2010 (1 comment)<p><i>The Cathedral and the Bazaar</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=162376" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=162376</a> - April 2008 (2 comments)
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chrisco255about 2 years ago
I think for me, when I was first learning software development 12 years ago, I had heard about Linux and open source, but I didn&#x27;t really understand how it operated or organized itself. I had seen Wikipedia appear in the early 00s and understood that distributed groups could develop something better than centralized entities (such as Microsoft&#x27;s Encarta or Britannica&#x27;s encyclopedia), but the analogy of a centrally planned cathedral, carefully coordinated, vs the organized chaos of a bazaar, was useful for me in understanding why software development is quite unlike other engineering disciplines, especially once software was augmented with the ability to update itself over the internet.<p>You <i>can</i> build software like a traditional engineering project, with a chief architect and lead engineer drawing up plans along with a team of people that map out all the specs ahead of time. But the internet changed everything. It made distributed coordination possible, and long-running, complex open source projects that could outlive or outgrow their founding team, became achievable.
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zokierabout 2 years ago
The ending paragraphs:<p>&gt; Perhaps this is not only the future of open-source software. No closed-source developer can match the pool of talent the Linux community can bring to bear on a problem. Very few could afford even to hire the more than 200 (1999: 600, 2000: 800) people who have contributed to fetchmail!<p>&gt; Perhaps in the end the open-source culture will triumph not because cooperation is morally right or software ``hoarding&#x27;&#x27; is morally wrong (assuming you believe the latter, which neither Linus nor I do), but simply because the closed-source world cannot win an evolutionary arms race with open-source communities that can put orders of magnitude more skilled time into a problem.<p>Problematically I don&#x27;t really see anywhere discussion where that large amount of skilled time originates; the economics of the situation. Even developers need to put food on the table.
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hunter2_about 2 years ago
This is very off-topic and for that I apologize, but can anyone shed some light on why so many texts of this era use 2 backticks&#x2F;graves as a left double quote and 2 apostrophes (neutral single quotes) as a double right quote?<p>I could understand using neutral single quotes all around if the double quote character wasn&#x27;t available, but why the backticks? I get that they look more out of place with proportional fonts than fixed-width, but even when fixed-width was ubiquitous and even if this usage of glyphs looked symmetrical, it would&#x27;ve deviated from how the code points are defined, right? Or were the definitions so multi-valued (like the &quot;hyphen&#x2F;minus&quot; character) that this was legitimate?
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rektideabout 2 years ago
Still I think incredibly useful frames for interpetting the world.<p>Society so visibly can see &amp; understand Cathedral entities. And we still are so weak at grokking the rhiziomatic Bazaar assemblages that happen.
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cghabout 2 years ago
Thematically related: “The Square and the Tower: Networks and Power, from the Freemasons to Facebook”, by Niall Ferguson
mastermedoabout 2 years ago
The Cathedral and the Bazaar often comes in discussions along with the Song of Sisyphus[0], a story of how Sisyphus software became widely used within Google. The use of it spread over bar drinks, completely organically. And Google had a very hard time deprecating it.<p>[0]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.oreilly.com&#x2F;library&#x2F;view&#x2F;a-case-study&#x2F;9781098114596&#x2F;ch01.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.oreilly.com&#x2F;library&#x2F;view&#x2F;a-case-study&#x2F;9781098114...</a>
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andyjohnson0about 2 years ago
What happened to esr? His blog has been dead for a few years.
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nologic01about 2 years ago
Old articles about open source help show how dynamic the patterns of bazaar like software building and how difficult to grasp new phenomena in their entirety.<p>There are different types of bazaars. We have not seen them all yet. The &quot;invasion&quot; of corporate interests is much discussed, but its just one of many new types of legal entities that get involved: non-profit entities and the public sector.<p>There are two drivers that are persistent and act like heat elements that keep steering the pot of bazaar like behavior: 1) software is important and 2) software that is not closed and proprietary is possible and even necessary.<p>The involvement of the public sector in particular seems still quite nascent. Yet the concept of &quot;digital public goods&quot; is already here (there is even an initiative with that name) and will likely play more important role going forward.<p>The perennial issue with open source is funding, but this reflects some peculiarities of the most decentralized type of bazaar.<p>In other words, while the bazaar has been happening in the town square for a few decades now, it keeps changing and, importantly, it keeps growing.
apienxabout 2 years ago
I did a post-doc in one of the top polymer chemistry department. There, I noticed people tend to share the minimum amount of information. I then left this quote prominently displayed in the hall: &quot;Alchemists turned into chemists when they stopped keeping secrets.&quot; - Eric S. Raymond
leocabout 2 years ago
The Wolfram effect <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=20071283" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=20071283</a> seems nearly as strong as ever on this topic.
phkampabout 2 years ago
A counter point:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;queue.acm.org&#x2F;detail.cfm?id=2349257" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;queue.acm.org&#x2F;detail.cfm?id=2349257</a>
eternityforestabout 2 years ago
The thing I always notice about this is that nearly every piece of software in my life is Cathedral model.<p>A lot of amazing stuff gets invented by the community, but it generally never becomes modern polished software till a Cathedral builder gets their hands on it.
coldteaabout 2 years ago
That didn&#x27;t age very well...
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nickdothuttonabout 2 years ago
I feel compelled to mention that even today, the EU cannot grok the bazaar.
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