Ask HN: Why is the American business environment so scummy?

39 pointsby dan-rocksalmost 2 years ago

I recently returned to the US after a stint in Asia with my company. Previously, I had lived in the US and in South America.I don't know if it's the recency of my Asia experience (though I can say the same vs. my South American experience), but the way the American business environment works seems exceedingly scummy, especially towards end customers.A few things that make express this opinion:1) The explosion of tipping culture, already discussed extensively on HN. I contribute one absurd example: paying an invoice for a kitchen renovation, of $18k, I was asked for a tip. On an 18 thousand dollar bill.2) I bought a house and immediately started receiving ungodly amounts of spam, many carefully crafted as official documents, attempting to make me buy some service, like property tax protesting, flood insurance (giving the impression it is mandatory!), filing for certain exceptions with the county (none of them are feasible, but they will charge for filing), it's like there is a host of parasites scouting public transaction records to try and extract money out of new homebuyers in a borderline criminal way.3) Buying a car, I eventually gave up. Dealers playing all sorts of games, much worse when I last lived in the US, since market heated up and MSRP became a fantasy. I had a salesman laugh on my face when I asked if a certain car went for $XX, "no man, it's $XX + $15k in markup, because this car is hot right now!", then requesting a "deposit" (aka bribe) to get the car for a "special price".4) It's impossible to obtain upfront pricing from gyms. Impossible. Some Crossfit gyms used to have it, now all have a popup asking for your data so they can upsell you shit. I HATE upselling especially when done in a non-graceful, exploitative way. And these mother**s take your phone number and never stop spamming you even when you declined all communication. Anytime Fitness is a repeat offender.5) Tried to rent a temp apartment from Blue Ground, which was attractively priced ("hey we are cheaper than AirBNB!") at $1950 (same retail price). Upon clicking the ad, filling out the form data, etc. they add a cleaning fee of $550 (seriously) plus $500 pet fee, plus other parking and "service fees", bumping the price to $3500.6) Constant pushing (which seems to have gotten worse over the previous six years) of extended warranties and service plans. It's everyfucking where now, even Target pushes a "protection plan" on a $49.99 microwave.Upselling and hidden fees have always been a feature of America's economy but the situation seems to have deteriorated so much that I feel like I am surrounded by criminal business entities trying to scam me.What specifically led the business environment in America to become this way?

6 comments

sircastoralmost 2 years ago

Lots of things are causing this. It’s very expensive to live in the US. We have an aggressive market system and culture that tells us we should be earning as much as we can, and our social safety nets are sparse and thin. Paying for schooling, housing, medical care, child care, etc are all very expensive, which in turn requires us to be aggressive in our earnings. A lot of services have become commoditized and consumers are price sensitive, so tipping is a means to pay workers a wage.And there’s a lot of runaway effect here. The snowball is so big that it’s insane to try to stop it. I think most countries under this load would see their economies collapse, but we have the accidental benefit of being the world’s reserve currency, and we’re still a very strong manufacturer of goods. So we just keep going, trying to make it work.

sneakalmost 2 years ago

The regulatory environment for business in the US regards average consumers as a resource to be strip-mined as opposed to willing and eager participants in a market.This is why we see so many duopolies and illusions of consumer choice in the US.

1970-01-01almost 2 years ago

Big Corp does this. Small business shops don't know or care about your email address, excessive tips, or extended warranty plans. So try shopping at Mom & Pop businesses. If you pay the inconvenience toll and don't need X at the lowest price, you will get the exact opposite of scummy America. Finding an independent realtor won't be easy, but they do exist. One exception is direct to consumer vehicle sales. You can buy lots of vehicles at MSRP online.

smoldesualmost 2 years ago

> What specifically led the business environment in America to become this way?Rewarding companies financially for doing all of the above.> Sure, but Apple and Tesla (both of which can be said to engage less in such behavior) have been rewarded for having good productsYou have just discovered the funny little double-standard that ensures scumbags remain the world's most valuable people.

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version_fivealmost 2 years ago

You may be shadowbanned, your other comment is [dead]...What is it like in Asia / Latam? Could it be that people have less money or are less gullible? Or are social consequences different? The problem in North America seems to be that there's no downside to the behavior you describe, so no matter how minuscule the upside people are going to go for it. It's a drawback of capitalism, but I wonder what's keeping it out of other areas.Edit: not shadowbanned, banned: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36420807">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36420807</a>

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elmerfudalmost 2 years ago

I've traveled extensively and wouldn't say it's any different here in the USA than other places but it might feel different because the methods are different. Generally places will attempt to squeeze as much money out of you as possible different places do it in different ways. I'm thinking your shock is just not being accustomed to it here. I was shocked at other places when I started traveling until I learned the tricks.It's funny you mention Asia because many Asian countries have a "foreigner tax" although they won't call it that. You go rent a room and if you're not a local you be charged double or triple what a local is for no better service or accommodations. I'm not saying this is all Asian countries, but an lot of the ones I have visited do in my personal experience. Now I'll find a local and have them negotiate for my lodging, oh boy the look on the owners face is priceless when I show up. Some even get mad.Tipping on a kitchen renovation, I would have found a different company. That's is a service that is designed and quoted. If they need a "tip" they need to set their price higher. Lots of renovation contractors that aren't like that. Use the free market, pick better.Same with buying your car, even paying MSRP is dumb, dealer invoice or slightly above is where you target unless you're looking at a rare or limited production car. Then you can expect to pay more because you're competing with collectors. There's still lots of car dealers that deal fairly, just call around especially if you know what you want. If you have no idea what you want in a car and you wander around the lot kicking tires taking test drives and wasting people's time chances are your price is going to be higher and they are going to be less inclined to give you a deal and ask you for a deposit to hold a car because you don't seem like a serious buyer. If you know exactly what you want you simply call around to the car dealerships talk to a salesman and tell them what you're willing to pay and just make sure it's a fair price where the dealer can make a little bit of money and you're giving them a 30-minute sale and that's it. They don't do it hang up and get another dealer because one little trick a lot of people don't know is that you can buy a car from one dealer and especially if it's not in stock have the delivery to another dealer and all you do is pick up there. That is the best way to make one of these shyster dealers realize they're overpriced is when they have to unload and prep a car they don't get paid for. Then you can laugh at the salesman and be like they took my price and made a 30-minute sale and now you have to hand me off the car. This is something I've personally done as well because it's trivial to look up the invoice price of a car no the spiffs and kicks that dealers get so you can offer them a price or they can make a couple thousand dollars for really a minimal amount of work. And there are dealers that recognize that time is money so the faster that they can sell the more money is in their pocket.So probably not worth it to me to respond to each individual point but I understand what you're saying and it is annoying but ultimately I don't feel it's much different than other places. It's just the annoyance that we've learned to deal with and if you've been gone for several years it has changed and you have to relearn how to deal with the annoyance. Because every other country I have been to has these same annoyances where they're trying to squeeze every amount of money they can get out of your pocket through whatever means they can. It's just each country or culture or whatever uses different tricks. No the tricks and refuse to play the game.