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How PayPal and Apple’s Fraud Policies Punish the Honest User

135 pointsby MattRyanLGabout 13 years ago
In mid-November last year, I woke up to the sound of my inbox suddenly being flooded with new messages. I have things set to alert me whenever PayPal, Wells Fargo, or iTunes emails me because I know that means that money is either being given to me or taken away. To my surprise, what I discovered that morning was incredibly concerning, and would result in what could be the most frustrating customer experience of my life.

13 comments

patio11about 13 years ago
Curious that Paypal is getting the hate in the comments here: when did they threaten to permaban him from his software?<p>Anyhow, constructively, you want to escalate to paper on both your bank and Apple (maybe Paypal as well, your call). Start getting an evidence trail together with certified mail, return receipt requested. Apple will kvetch a bit but they (and virtually every other large company) understand the difference between that and a phone call, which you should stop doing immediately, because the contents of them are known to be totally opaque to judges.<p>You probably won't have to sue anyone, but the demonstrable capability of suing will cause them to escalate this issue internally very, very rapidly.
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spindritfabout 13 years ago
Why is PayPal even in the title? They seem to have handled the case fine. Yeah, the additional freezes probably weren't necessary but it was Apple who went completely crazy.<p>A user was hacked so they stop allowing him to update their software?! So that it can more easily happen again?<p>And they will revoke his account (and license?) that allows him to use the software he bought?! This is like a horror story written by Richard Stallman.<p>EDIT: On second thought, why do you even need an account to update the software? When I'm updating my Ubuntu, it's the software that's signed so that I can trust the repository. The user is not signed so that the repository can trust them, you can stay completely anonymous. Hell, even Microsoft never required me to jump through any sort of hoops to get updates. I once had to verify my key, that's it. Does Android require a Google account to use the market and get updates? Even if, you still can get an anonymous one.<p>Why would anyone need my name to update their own software? It happens to run on my computer but that doesn't change anything.
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dangrossmanabout 13 years ago
So:<p>1) Someone steals his PayPal account and uses it to buy a bunch of stuff on iTunes<p>2) He reports the fraud to PayPal, which refunds all of these payments to him<p>3) He reports to Wells Fargo that PayPal has engaged in fraud by taking these payments to fund his PayPal account, which is a false claim -- the transfer to PayPal was authorized as a funding source and PayPal was already handling the refunds<p>4) Three months later, PayPal gets hit with a bunch of disputes from Wells Fargo to take back money that's already been returned, double dipping and creating major hassles for them. Wells Fargo is, essentially, stealing from PayPal on the basis of this person's old false claim. PayPal flags the account.<p>So PayPal did everything right: they were available for immediate contact, were "courteous and helpful", promptly reversed the fraudulent payments to iTunes, and his account was left in good standing while he was made financially whole. What more could they have done?
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droithommeabout 13 years ago
Amazing. I had no idea Apple could just arbitrarily (or even with great reasons) decide to shut down your Apple ID, killing your software and disable a lifetime of DRM protected music, ebook and application purchases. Reminds me of how you now must show a passport to leave the US and being behind on your child support is cause to prevent US citizens from leaving the country, just as if they lived in East Germany. Starts out, oh sure, we need this system to check to make sure you're not some kind of criminal. Then it is used for arbitrary control and enforcement of the whims of a cold centralized bureaucracy.<p><i>Cough cough Stallman was right cough cough</i>.
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TomGullenabout 13 years ago
The Paypal dispute policy is broken in my opinion. Admittedly we've only had a few disputes (in the region of ~10) but without failure the disputers ALWAYS gets their money back.<p>The worst case we had was when one customer made a payment to us, and we got an email saying the payment was on hold whilst Paypal authorises and investigates this payment.<p>A day or two later we got an email from Paypal saying their investigation is complete, and we can ship the item. We sent our software license off to the buyer and within a couple of hours they disputed it and won all their money back the next day.<p>Paypal each time make us feel like there's nothing we can do, there's no dialogue, there's no acknowledgements, it's extremely frustrating sometimes.
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sauravcabout 13 years ago
It turns out the author of the article used to work at Apple in customer service. (According to his Google+ page <a href="https://plus.google.com/112301869379652563135/about" rel="nofollow">https://plus.google.com/112301869379652563135/about</a>)<p>But he makes no mention of this in an article that speaks largely about the customer service of Apple and PayPal.<p>I find this pretty disingenuous, and regardless of whether his story was factual or not, it takes the wind out of anything he's saying.
jobuabout 13 years ago
Here's a tip: Don't use PayPal unless you absolutely have to. PayPal has taken to treating its customers as badly as many large banks.<p>Many credit card companies are very proactive about fraudulent purchases online, and I even had Discover call me when they noticed a series of small purchases on iTunes. It turned out it wasn't exactly fraud (my 5yo on a home computer I hadn't signed out), but I was able to cut it off and I'm sure they saved me a bundle of money.
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leephillipsabout 13 years ago
"I’d have to buy Mac OS X Lion again, Final Cut Pro, Compressor, hundreds of dollars in iOS apps, and hundreds more in Mac software"<p>If you use commercial DRMed software you are asking for this. It is hard to feel sympathetic with this part of the story.
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theHeraldTVabout 13 years ago
I've been using PayPal for nearly ten years now and never had any issues with the service. Now currently my bank account is overdrawn, and if I don't get it out of the red soon I won't be able to use PayPal with my eBay account, etc. That's not PayPay's fault -- it's my own for not managing my money better.<p>Apple Inc. prides itself on its customer service. When I went in for a group interview to work at the local Apple Store that was the most important concept they drilled into our heads. That said, it's one thing for a company to talk the talk; it's quite another to walk the walk.
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rickdaleabout 13 years ago
This isn't a problem limited in scope to Apple and Paypal. If you get your identity stolen in any way it can be a huge hassle and take over 12 months to completely figure it all out and clear out your credit. Speaking from personal experience, I had to call over 20 businesses, send each of them copies of the police reports, and remind some of them, to clear their marks on my credit report.
brown9-2about 13 years ago
<i>The PayPal representative I spoke to was very courteous and helpful, though he couldn’t confirm whether or not I would experience the dreaded PayPal account freeze as a result. After all, all of my income comes to me via PayPal. </i><p>Wouldn't it make sense then to use a separate PayPal account for your self-employed business/income from what you use for personal purchases?
soultabout 13 years ago
What I am most curious about, and what has never been mentioned in the article or in the comments here, is, how the account was hacked. If the author not only has been hacked himself, but also knows other people who have been hacked, it should be possible to find the common denominator between them.
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joejohnsonabout 13 years ago
<i>I spent over an hour on the phone with Mac support (remember, iTunes doesn’t have a customer support line)</i><p>That's because Mac support lines <i>are</i> the iTunes support line. He obviously figured this one out, yet he keeps claiming there's no number to call for iTunes-related issues.