Its getting worse everywhere:<p>some things I've noticed: Mobil Safari seems to be using the search bar to hijack my google search (Particularly for locations which open in apple maps)<p>Although I'm mostly linux these days I went to install an alternative browser on a windows machine (using edge to download). I mentioned this in another post, but edge seems to watch for "chrome" or "firefox" downloads and politely reminds you that 'Edge is a great browser with added "trust of microsoft"' (A company who happen to be watching when you download a web browser).<p><a href="https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/2/22813733/microsoft-windows-edge-download-chrome-prompts" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/2/22813733/microsoft-window...</a><p>Linux seems like an OS that is way more respectful.
Windows is just full of hostile, anti-user patterns these days. I've considered building a windows box just to have a gaming rig multiple times over the last few years, but every time an article like this or their crusade against Chrome reminds me that Bill Gates is still the same anti-trust monster he was in the 90s.
<i>Microsoft is always striving to improve and streamline our product experiences—offering a new way to use the classic Microsoft Outlook app on Windows and the Microsoft Edge web browser.</i><p><i>to help you stay engaged in conversations as you browse the web.</i><p>I wonder if the people who write this sort of BS-filled prose really believe in what they're writing. To be completely honest, the style almost sounds like LLM output.
Google does something like this with the GMail app on iPhone— you click links and instead of just opening Safari, it pops up a "which browser to use" selector modal, which is really just an advertisement for you to install Chrome.
The final straw for me and Windows was when I took the time to remove some annoying feature, cortana or edge, can't remember.<p>Then an update replaced my work.<p>It wasnt some 'uninstall program', but a multi-step process that involved registry editing.<p>I don't feel like I have control over Windows.
Obligatory reminder Microsoft has been pulling bullshit like this (and worse) for over 30 years, at least as far back as the AARD code.<p><a href="https://www.geoffchappell.com/notes/windows/archive/aard/index.htm" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://www.geoffchappell.com/notes/windows/archive/aard/ind...</a>
I get so many support requests of "I clicked on a link and then I was logged-out".<p>They weren't logged-out, they just didn't notice that the link was opened in the wrong browser. Doesn't help that most browsers kind of all look the same.
I'm currently using Linux due to this kind of hostile behavior from Microsoft on Windows.<p>However, we are power users and the big masses won't care about an ever increasing misalignment between the users' needs and Microsoft's. We cannot vote with our wallets, e.g. by using Linux instead. It won't matter.<p>What we could maybe do is contribute to projects like ReactOS[0] and make it easier for the layperson to migrate to it if modern Windows finally annoys them. Just food for thought.<p>[0] <a href="https://reactos.org/" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://reactos.org/</a>
Shows that antitrust law isn't real. The government wasted millions on chasing Microsoft over IE, and Microsoft isn't even scared to use the OS to force users to use Edge. They've been as far down the path as US regulation goes, and came out of it fearless.
The sooner we realize that 'product managers' and 'UX designers' are now as bad as used car salesmen and NFT hucksters, the better.<p>I'm sorry, I LOVE building products and I LOVE design... but these fields have become grift central. No disrespect to folks in these fields, but remember how you came into this field talking about usability, cooperation, beautiful typography, color theory?<p>Bring those back.
> "No more disruptive switching"<p>How about you don't decide that for everyone, Microsoft?<p><rant><p>This is the same BS that pushes 'conditional acces' based on what browser you happen to be using, or their idea of SSO where your console login also dictates all other logins... and it happens that you must use Edge. Turns out people don't give a shit if they have to pick an account more than once. That used to be a big point of friction on LanMan networks and when there was no Kerberos, but the same principles simply do not transfer to the web.<p>Just like Teams and all their other packaged nonsense (Intune): they are creating a fake ecosystem where usage isn't based on requirements or best tool for the job, but on 'what else happens to come with the package', making the UX worse for everyone. Entry-level admins and middlemen don't actually need (or want) to know how any of it works, delegate responsibility and defects to the vendor (Microsoft) and then essentially stall all local wants and needs because they cannot actually fulfil anything themselves.
Ugh can't wait until Linux is accessible for blind people like me. Y'all seen the new Windows File Explorer context menu? Freaking sucks. I'm sure I've posted this here before but dang, it just keeps getting worse.
I don't understand how Microsoft <i>benefits</i> from getting everyone to use their web browser? Is it all to spy on people's browsing habits?
Microsoft, why?? It's an easy fix sure (within the Microsoft 365 Apps admin center) but why is it so hard for you to respect people's default browser choice?
I’m one of the dinosaurs who still uses Skype to talk to some non-computer people who haven’t moved away from it.<p>Skype similarly gets worse and worse each update. They removed the ability to have multiple windows, they made links open in some kind of in-Skype browser I can’t find a setting a to turn off, they added a weather widget which is dumb.<p>Thankfully the weather widget exists, though, because their new in app browser doesn’t have any way to close the in app “window” it opens - no x, nowhere to click to close it. The only way I’ve found to close it is to click the weather widget which loads into the same space and that has an x to close it. I bet they’re getting tons of positive numbers about weather widget use from users just looking to close the shitty in app browser. I don’t know if it even counts as a dark pattern - I can’t tell if the Skype designers are this incompetent or actually hate the few users left still on that shitty platform. Maybe they’re purposely trying to get Microsoft to shut it down by making it worse every update?<p>Every second I use skype I want to get away from it, I just have to convince a handful of people to move as well, or I guess let them know they won’t be able to reach me through there and give up talking to them.<p>I noticed the outlook link handling thing on my personal machine and figured out how to turn it off but damn that was annoying. I’m not going to be annoyed into using edge - I won’t be tricked into it either. Every time this happens my willingness to go along with this gets smaller and smaller. I have a bunch of paid Microsoft licenses - windows, office365, etc. Once gaming off windows matures a little more I think its time to move away from this abusive shit.
Recently went all-Linux on my new workstation, and news like this makes clear that it was the right move to give up on Windows completely. I dual-booted for... 20 years? Just not worth it anymore. The disk storage reclaimed, the file system partitioning undone, the user-hostile patterns avoided. Couldn't be happier.
The title is a little clickbaity - the behaviour can be changed:<p>“ Ultimately though, if this experience isn't right for you, you can turn off this feature the first time it launches in Microsoft Edge, and then in Outlook settings at any time after that. ”<p>Having said that, Microsoft seem to be entering another phase of baiting antitrust regulators.
It took us half a day to roll back our systems to get rid of the new Outlook. It's a web based email client through an Edge browser window and it's awful. I do not want to use an Edge browser window to access email, I don't want to even have to see the edge browser at all.
Edit: I was wrong, it opens in Edge.<p>I dislike Microsoft as much as the next person, but AFAICT this is about opening the link <i>inside</i> Outlook, in a sidepane:<p>> ... browser links from the Outlook app will open in Microsoft Edge by default, right alongside the email they’re from in the Microsoft Edge sidebar pane.<p>Also the title has been editorialized here, the original title describes what is actually happening:<p>> Outlook emails open next to web links in Microsoft Edge<p>You can also turn it off:<p>> Ultimately though, if this experience isn't right for you, you can turn off this feature the first time it launches in Microsoft Edge, and then in Outlook settings at any time after that.
Devil’s advocate: Microsoft, an ethically unclean company, is justified in using this tactic to compete with Google, because (a) Google did it to acquire Chrome users in the first place, and (b) breaking the browser hegemony at a user mindshare level (not rendering engine level) is worth some UX pain.<p><i>Note on (a): some will argue a difference between Google advertising Chrome on Google’s property (something they could do when bootstrapping Chrome) and advertising Chrome on other people’s property (something they could not do). But here, Windows and Edge are Microsoft’s property, like it or not.</i>
> Ultimately though, if this experience isn't right for you, you can turn off this feature the first time it launches in Microsoft Edge, and then in Outlook settings at any time after that.
Windows 11 can multitask and is used on a widescreen display and has the ability to align windows, so why not just put Outlook next to Edge instead of using Edge's sidebar to display email?
Ironically, Outlook has been opening mailto links in the Windows mail app for me, which I’ve never once used. So if they want override defaults somewhere, this is the only one I would allow.
Is this because not all browsers support stuff equally?<p>A few days ago on fresh windows install I couldnt watch netflix on ff/edge, but on chrome it worked. Player error.<p>I guess it was related to some missing drivers?
The title is a bit editorialized. Microsoft is doing the equivalent of embedding a "Web View" in Outlook. Instead of having some stale custom build of MSIE, they're using Edge because it's already installed and they're in control of the API and its compatibility. They're also offering a setting to disable this behavior.<p>The links don't "open in Edge". That would suggest they launch the Edge app (instead of the default browser) and open the link in that. Instead the links open in a pane in Outlook that embeds Edge (presumably with the same settings and session context as the actual app). This also only affects the desktop Outlook app, not the far more modern and less clunky web version. I genuinely wonder how many HN users commenting on this story actually use desktop Outlook app or know someone who does and doesn't also use Edge (or their IT department's mandated out-of-date copy of Firefox ESR).<p>Now, bear in mind I'm saying this from a position that is in favor of splitting up Microsoft (and Google and maybe Apple). The feature is certainly useful if viewed in isolation, but it is in effect anti-competitive behavior because even if they wanted, they couldn't provide generic integration of your browser of choice the same way and the new behavior is opt-out rather than opt-in. It's bad, but let's not pretend it's worse and more deceitful than it truly is, just because you already don't like Microsoft (and presumably don't use their products).<p>This is probably a genuine usability improvement. It's also anti-competitive. Both of these things can be true at the same time.
Microsoft's black patterns are starting to irritate me. This most recent incidence had an effect on several of our 365 users. Even with GPO, this still overrides the browser's default settings. Microsoft buried the option to set the browser to its default in the settings of Outlook. For every user, we must change it manually. We'll be searching for alternatives to Microsoft Office in the future.
<i>> Microsoft is always striving to improve and streamline our product experiences</i><p>Lol. Euphemism for "we want to take away all choice from the user".
I wouldn't mind Edge if it were a Microsoft branded version of Chromium. It started out that way, and it was nice. But it's attracted every team at Microsoft and a total explosion of semi-useful features until it became totally bloated.
From "why we are doing this change" section:<p>> To provide a unique experience — at Microsoft, we strive to create the best customer experience across our products.<p>... they straight up admit using windows dominance to push other products.
<a href="https://github.com/rcmaehl/MSEdgeRedirect">https://github.com/rcmaehl/MSEdgeRedirect</a><p>That should fix it, right?<p>I use it for quite a long time now and it works with the search bar in the startmenu.
I have a Windows box just for playing a few games, but even for that Windows is freaking rubbish. It keeps asking me to sign in with some BS Windows Live account!<p>How painful is the Steam on Linux/Proton experience on average?
This is reminiscent of the USA vs Microsoft case in 2001... I wonder how much the antitrust team at Microsoft gets a say in product decisions like this. Just feels like they're toeing a line...<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor...</a>.<p>Also definitely not in the best interest of users, which isn't the Satya Nadella way of operating, at least not as demonstrated in the developer tools side of the business.
OK, the page gives us a guide to submitting feedback about the feature. Everybody with Edge installed, please fire it up just this once and submit a plea to revert this! We can make Microsoft notice!
Right in the KB:<p>"Ultimately though, if this experience isn't right for you, you can turn off this feature the first time it launches in Microsoft Edge, and then in Outlook settings at any time after that."
Dear Microsoft,<p>Nobody wants Edge. Not now. Not ever.<p>Here's a graphic showing for the many uses for Edge.<p><a href="https://i.imgur.com/bq0LK8X.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://i.imgur.com/bq0LK8X.png</a>
I'd be happy to give Edge a chance but honestly Windows has so many anti-user patterns that it's intentionally forcing me to not use Edge because of how mad it's making me.
Don’t get me started on the fucking gamification of the start menu with microsoft reward coins (+100 to try bing on edge) to drive microsoft internal team KPIs<p>This is as bad as Facebooks legendary QP abuse in metrics season that everyone used to win their PSC because we are talking about 300$ product here, Win11 PRO that is as crammed with adware - tiktok, instagram, office, onedrive, blah blah blah as in the worst days of steve balmer now.
I would expect the EU to have something to say to this.
For people more into the legal side, why do MS think that EU will not think about this as abusing its monopoly?
Fortunately, I only have to deal with Microsoft products at work. Unfortunately, one of those products is Outlook.<p>Years ago, I developed the muscle memory of copying links from outlook and pasting them into a browser rather than clicking on them directly. This was to avoid various "helpful" things Microsoft insists of doing. Now, that habit will pay off in spades.
The solution is to only use the web version of outlook.<p>The nice thing about the web versions of office is that they're powerless on the local machine.
I noticed. But I don't care. Currently, I use Microsoft products on a daily basis for my work, I only use Outlook for access the company email.
Honestly, I'd never plug a personal email account in it, nor ever browse personal content on a Microsoft's browser. Firefox+Thunderbird all the way.
Since probably a year back I can't get links in emails to open correctly from Outlook with any browser without copying the link manually. So for me it does not matter.<p>I think apps should work in the general way an OS is designed. This change may lead to the same mobile app horrors where every app is also a browser that breaks common user flows.
To me this isn't a huge loss as I have set firefox as my default browser, but I really use Chrome. The net result is that all of the tracking links I click in email get opened in a browser that I hardly use and that has hardly any context about me - no cookies, etc. Then I can copy the actual destination url into my real browser.
While obnoxious, they’re not doing anything truly nefarious under the hood: they’re just prepending every link with “edge://“ to open edge. This functionality was available to basically every single app since apps have become a thing, it might be interesting if other apps decided to force open chrome in response…
It's part of a long term plan. A couple of years ago I noticed the same decision in Control Panel help links. They do not allow choosing a different Open With other than Microsoft programs. Even though I had some other browser installed, the only browser in the list of Open With was Edge.
At least old Microsoft tried to hide or wash away their anti-consumer anti-competitive behavior. New Microsoft proudly announces it.<p>And this reflects on other tech giants. They understand that they're in an era of near-zero regulation and can get away with seemingly anything.
I also see this happening on `mspaint`.<p>For example, when you 'accidentally' click the help question mark instead of the exit cross, it will open Microsoft Edge with a search on Bing for "help with paint in windows".
I noticed this last week during a brief foray into Windows on the desktop and honestly, I don't hate it. Before you down-vote let me tell you why.<p>I use Outlook for work only, and I segregate my browsing so that work browsing is done in Edge and personal is not. I could do (and have done) Chrome or Firefox profiles, but moving completely to Edge hasn't been terrible. (Hello vertical tab bar on my widescreen laptop).<p>I agree the pattern is bad if someone is using Outlook for their personal email, but I suspect the Venn diagram of people who use Outlook for personal email and people who install a different browser is probably small.<p>As always this should be an option!<p>On my Linux desktop and laptops I have my default browser set to firefox --profilemanager %u so that every link I click in Slack, Teams, Thunderbird etc I can select the correct profile to open it in.
My biggest complain on Outlook is loading external image. The settings to turn it off is so hard to find. I don't understand why is was so simple before now it's hidden and its also hard to find in the help files.
I don't really want links - I want a machine learning algorithm to summarize and categorize, provide action, and ultimately reply for me so that I can converse with my relative's AIs regularly.
It's AMAZING to me Microsoft is framing this as a UX improvement, when it's going against explicit user choice... which is one of the tenants of good UX?<p>The Windows Start menu is already so broken though.
I would use edge if I could have shared bookmarks, passwords, etc with chrome (not simply import). But since I can't there's no point to using a Windows only browser when I also use Linux
"Ultimately though, if this experience isn't right for you, you can turn off this feature the first time it launches in Microsoft Edge, and then in Outlook settings at any time after that."<p>Wow.
Also, it opens the email itself in a sidebar. Edge has been super hostile in the past few months, and it seems to coincide with the Bing Chat push. So much garbage like Workspaces and Discover.
I'm getting office365 nagging me to change the pdf viewer on android after each download in chrome about 15 minutes after the download. Can't find the setting to stop it.
This can be good if I have multiple mailboxes/profiles and it opens private mails in my private browser profile, and work mails in my work profile.
Weird, I just updated, and nothing changed for me. My links open in the same browser they always have (not Edge). I guess I'm one of the lucky ones.
This does make a bit of sense; Edge on Windows logs you into 365 and keeps the authentication around. So company links/attachments on Outlook can open easier on Edge using the 365 credentials. Now, if only they were actually smarter about which 365 profile's mail you are reading in Outlook (for those of us that are working across multiple orgs) and open the link under that profile on Edge, that would be awesome.<p>Edge makes a lot more sense as a smarter 365 client than it does as a browser, but it's not a bad browser either.
I was looking at Distrowatch with my son.. lamenting at all the different distros, the distros I've never heard of, and the frequency of changes in the top 10 with distros I'm not familiar with. Free software devs are obviously free to do as they wish, but Apple vs Microsoft vs Google vs 100+ Linux distros wasn't going to lead to the outcome some of us were hoping for.<p>We're looking at building a monster Davinci Resolve workstation and we might use Linux. He certainly wants to.<p>But between our mobile devices (all iOS etc) and laptops -- we'd have a very mixed and heterogenous environment. I'm tired of maintaining all the different incompatibilities. I'm inclined to go all Apple, just to keep things clean.<p>But the Distrowatch situation showed me how much Linux missed its "year of the desktop" window, so many years ago, and how having optimal hardware experiences across form-factors doesn't include Linux as a default, or obvious, or user-friendly option.. the way it does for servers and cloud ops.
I changed it back to use default browser. It took all of 60 seconds to google the answer. They totally should take a calculated risk like this in order to gain more market share. Exercising control over software defaults rarely causes users to abandon a product entirely. The pain of changing the default back is much less than the pain of finding a new tool. Microsoft will not lose Outlook users by doing this. They will gain Edge users though. Yes, they will enrage the craftspeople who aren't a part of THE GRID, but that still won't affect the bottom line enough to matter.