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Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action in college admissions

959 pointsby rbrownalmost 2 years ago

98 comments

mikecealmost 2 years ago
The SCOTUS opinion here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.supremecourt.gov&#x2F;opinions&#x2F;22pdf&#x2F;20-1199_hgdj.pdf" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.supremecourt.gov&#x2F;opinions&#x2F;22pdf&#x2F;20-1199_hgdj.pdf</a>
skrebbelalmost 2 years ago
The concept of affirmative action is foreign to me (quite literally so). I only know it from American media, and I&#x27;ve come understand it to mean &quot;positively discriminate based on race, so long as it&#x27;s a minority race&quot; - please correct me of I&#x27;m wrong.<p>But anyway, my question for the Americans here who grok this stuff: I assume the intent is to help disadvantaged people have opportunities that more priviledged people have already. Right? I mean, I can get behind that. But then why the entire detour with race? Why not just.. well, let poor people come first? Would the goal suddenly not be met if poor smart white kids get into good schools, too? Who loses in this case?<p>I don&#x27;t mean this as a hihi actually sneaky anti-affirmative-action post, I don&#x27;t understand the subject matter well enough (nor America in general). I genuinely don&#x27;t get why the race thing is part of the equation. Shouldn&#x27;t this just be run-of-the-mill social democratic &quot;lets hand out some extra opportunities&#x2F;benefits to the poor&quot; program?
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losvediralmost 2 years ago
As someone of Hispanic descent this is very interesting to me. Affirmative Action probably helped my father, whose father was a construction worker and mother a homemaker both of whom dropped out of high school, get into college and ultimately become a doctor.<p>But because my father was a doctor, I had a fairly privileged upbringing. I&#x27;m a generation removed, but growing up in California always had to indicate my background on standardized tests and always checked &quot;White&quot; for race and then &quot;Hispanic&quot; for ethnicity (which is how all the tests asked it in those days, not sure if it&#x27;s still the case), without thinking much about it.<p>I went to MIT, and to this day I wonder how much checking &quot;Hispanic&quot; helped me there and if I &quot;deserved&quot; to go. I was valedictorian and had a perfect score on the SATs and I feel like I was a strong candidate, but then everyone who gets into MIT is strong. And since I did successfully graduate then I guess it was fine that I was accepted, but I was constantly blown away and overwhelmed by the accomplishments of my peers there, and always wondered a bit if I belonged.<p>I&#x27;ve always had an identity crisis about what I am. I know in the current zeitgeist there&#x27;s a big push for racial justice, of which being Hispanic and &quot;brown&quot; is a part. But it also feels totally irrelevant to me, personally, because of my upper class upbringing and elite education, and I feel like I&#x27;ve never really been discriminated against. Though I possibly have been discriminated &quot;for&quot;, and benefited tremendously from it.<p>So I don&#x27;t know how I feel about this change. It&#x27;s certainly a big one, but in the long run, maybe it&#x27;s good? I know I&#x27;ve always wondered if being Hispanic helped me get into college or into jobs, but the flip side is that other people must wonder the same...
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LargeTomatoalmost 2 years ago
I applied to university as African American&#x2F;Black because I&#x27;m 1&#x2F;4 Egyptian. I am very white. Some people may guess I&#x27;m Jewish (I&#x27;m not) but no one guesses African American.<p>I got into a nice school and I was enrolled in the &quot;minority engineering excellence program&quot;. The program was like 25% white kids with &quot;1&#x2F;16 native American&quot; or &quot;1&#x2F;8 Spanish&quot;. We got free tutoring and we all took an exclusive class just for the program and 100% of us got an A. It was definitely unfair.<p>Half of the minority engineers just left the program. They were clearly capable of passing engineering school and the minority program was culty and a bit weird. The kids who stayed were dragged through the system with copious free tutoring and paid staff helping them stay on top of their course work. These kids dropped out at Juniors when they would have probably otherwise dropped out as Freshman.
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solardevalmost 2 years ago
I often wished universities (and other organizations) would use a scoresheet-like &quot;matrix of oppression&quot; to determine someone&#x27;s background difficulties.<p>Like okay, you get X points if you&#x27;re this race, Y points for that. Z points if your parents were poor. Or if you grew up in these bad zip codes. Or if your dad was gone and mom was an addict. Whatever.<p>As an Asian American of relatively privileged (middle class) upbringing who went to a state college, I often found it unfair that many of my desperately poor white peers worked their asses off their whole lives, despite minimal support from their parents, to get into college on merit alone. Meanwhile for me, my admissions counselor handwaved away all the entrance requirements (my GPA was low, I didn&#x27;t have the pre reqs done, etc.) and admitted me on the spot. Years later I&#x27;d find out that I was part of their zip code based recruiting program designed to get non whites into the school for the benefit of their diversity quotas. In California they already weren&#x27;t allowed to use affirmative action due to Prop 209, so they just used a geographical proxy for race (finding zip codes with high non white ratios to recruit from).<p>I didn&#x27;t deserve that spot at all. I never worked for it, I never suffered for it, my parents didn&#x27;t much either. I just happened to benefit from policies meant to protect Black and Hispanic people, at their expense, while simultaneously throwing white people under the bus. It was pretty unfair all around.<p>I get that as a society we want to help give people a chance to escape the circumstances of their birth. But skin color alone is an awfully broad brush that paints only a vague picture of who that person is and what kind of adversity they may or may not have overcome. I wish we looked at it with more nuance is all I&#x27;m saying.
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flowerladalmost 2 years ago
It is important to note that Harward’s admission policy that is the subject of this case was designed to favor White students over Jewish ones [1]. Today it is being used to discriminate against Asian Americans.<p>Colleges are already prepared for this ruling. Many, such as the University of Washington have abandoned standardized tests because such tests compell universities to admit the kinds of students universities are trying to limit (Asian Americans).<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.economist.com&#x2F;united-states&#x2F;2018&#x2F;06&#x2F;23&#x2F;a-lawsuit-reveals-how-peculiar-harvards-definition-of-merit-is" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.economist.com&#x2F;united-states&#x2F;2018&#x2F;06&#x2F;23&#x2F;a-lawsuit...</a>
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roody15almost 2 years ago
The issue has changed in my lifetime. Originally affirmative action was used to help people who had been systematically discriminated against get into higher learning institutions in an attempt to make up for some of these wrongs.<p>Although a difficult process I believe most people genuinely believed in the concept.<p>Fast forward to today and we have a much different framework. Equity.<p>There is a belief that any group, race, subset of people should have the same outcomes everywhere. This premise is much more controversial and not universally supported.<p>Should women have the exact same percentage acceptance into computer scientist or welding programs? Or should it be a 50&#x2F;50 split and anything short of that screams discrimination.<p>It boils down to equal opportunity vs equalized outcomes. They are not same … one has almost universal support the other seems to be taken directly out of a dystopian novel.
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JustBreathalmost 2 years ago
Whatever your opinion about recent supreme court decisions, this has all underscored what has been true for a long time:<p>Legislating via the judicial branch is a bad idea.<p>If it only takes 5 out of 9 people to make laws for 600 million, it only takes one seat change to revert them.<p>(Edit: sorry, 300 - pre-caffeine posting)
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onetimeusenamealmost 2 years ago
I got an email about this from my university president expressing his disappointment with the ruling. He assured everyone the campus will continue to strive for more racial diversity and that this ruling is a hindrance to that goal because race based discrimination is a good thing for achieving diversity.<p>The school is already about 25% white in a country that is ~60% white. Is that sufficiently diverse? What is the optimal amount of diversity and why? There are a lot of questions I could ask. But I think it&#x27;s interesting that schools have announced so strong a commitment to diversity without really explaining what diversity is or how having certain racial demographics results in the best possible outcome. How would you prove that?<p>I don&#x27;t think this ruling will have any effect. The schools are pretty clearly committed to diversity, whatever that means and for whatever their reasons may be.
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chmod600almost 2 years ago
“ I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.”<p>—- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.npr.org&#x2F;2010&#x2F;01&#x2F;18&#x2F;122701268&#x2F;i-have-a-dream-speech-in-its-entirety" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.npr.org&#x2F;2010&#x2F;01&#x2F;18&#x2F;122701268&#x2F;i-have-a-dream-spee...</a>
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paulvnickersonalmost 2 years ago
Relevant summary from the decision:<p>&gt; Because Harvard’s and UNC’s admissions programs lack suffi- ciently focused and measurable objectives warranting the use of race, unavoidably employ race in a negative manner, involve racial stereo- typing, and lack meaningful end points, those admissions programs cannot be reconciled with the guarantees of the Equal Protection Clause. At the same time, nothing prohibits universities from consid- ering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected the applicant’s life, so long as that discussion is concretely tied to a quality of character or unique ability that the particular applicant can contribute to the uni- versity. Many universities have for too long wrongly concluded that the touchstone of an individual’s identity is not challenges bested, skills built, or lessons learned, but the color of their skin. This Nation’s constitutional history does not tolerate that choice.
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newacct3almost 2 years ago
Considering the failure and timing of prop 16 and overall makeup of the California electorate compared to rest of country, official discrimination on the basis of race likely won&#x27;t return in higher ed. Also consider that prop 16 failed by double digits with the pro-discrimination crowd outspending the opposition 19x<p>What I&#x27;m curious about is this: the Harvard decision is wrt a private entity, the court ruled that they discriminated against whites and asians<p>Could racially discriminatory hiring strategies be next? Could this trigger a wave of litigation?
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endisneighalmost 2 years ago
I’ll need to read the opinion but why not eliminate consideration using all protected statuses (race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy, sexual orientation, or gender identity), national origin, age (40 or older), disability and genetic information)?<p>Affirmative action is not just about race. It doesn’t make sense that you can discriminate on any protected status to begin with.<p>In any case I doubt this will change the makeup of schools at all:<p>&gt; “Nothing in this opinion should be construed as prohibiting universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration, or otherwise,” Roberts wrote.
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throwawayXX1Xalmost 2 years ago
India had a caste system for a long time. The lower castes were relegated to menial jobs while upper classes enjoyed ruling. After India got independence in 1947, a new legislation was passed with 20% seats given to the lower castes. Soon, people demanding more and more seats, A classic case of vocal minority.<p>Now, In 2022, almost 70% of all seats reserved for the &quot;lower&quot; castes with a small population. The rest population competes for 30% of seats.<p>If someone tries to reduce the amount of quota: Riots happens, ministers are dethroned, shot etc. Nobody even touches this issue anymore.<p>The result is that the top brass of the skilled population have built up a deep resentment. The moment they start earning well, they leave the country and surrender their citizenship without hesitation.<p>This leads to a feedback loop where the general population is taxed more and more to cover the revenue gap of HNI (High Networth Individuals) leaving. And then more population with the ability to leave , leaves.<p>1. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.shiksha.com&#x2F;engineering&#x2F;articles&#x2F;jee-main-reservation-criteria-understanding-quotas-reservations-and-categories-blogId-7760" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.shiksha.com&#x2F;engineering&#x2F;articles&#x2F;jee-main-reserv...</a><p>2. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Reservation_in_India" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Reservation_in_India</a><p>3. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.forbesindia.com&#x2F;media&#x2F;images&#x2F;2023&#x2F;Jun&#x2F;img_210405_privatewealthmigration.jpg" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.forbesindia.com&#x2F;media&#x2F;images&#x2F;2023&#x2F;Jun&#x2F;img_210405...</a>
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Aeolunalmost 2 years ago
This may be the only time ever I’ve ever felt like I agreed with the conservative side of SCOTUS.<p>I just do not know how to politely say any form of affirmative action is bizarre.<p>If your schools suck at teaching worthwhile things to minorities or poor people, the problem is that your school system sucks. Not that some people don’t get into a few highly prestigious universities.<p>You could argue it’s a kind of bandaid, but at the cost of introducing discrimination yet again and hiding the true problem. Which is that your system sucks at creating opportunity for everyone.
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ricardoplouisalmost 2 years ago
Worth noting that while affirmative action has been banned, we still have proxies for race (aka legacy admissions) which overwhelmingly favor rich and white students. And given the historical discrimination of elite universities, this ban on affirmative action without addressing legacy admissions or historical harm will only increase the number of white students at universities. We can&#x27;t pretend that eliminating race based admissions will serve the greater interest without addressing past (and current) systems of white supremacy.<p>Link to demographics on legacy admissions: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.culawreview.org&#x2F;journal&#x2F;legacy-admissions-an-insidious-form-of-racial-discrimination" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.culawreview.org&#x2F;journal&#x2F;legacy-admissions-an-ins...</a>
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Georgelementalalmost 2 years ago
An important nuance from the majority opinion:<p>&gt; At the same time, as all parties agree, nothing in this opinion should be construed as prohibiting universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration, or otherwise. See, e.g., 4 App. in No. 21–707, at 1725–1726, 1741; Tr. of Oral Arg. in No. 20–1199, at 10. But, despite the dissent’s assertion to the contrary, universities may not simply establish through application essays or other means the regime we hold unlawful today. (A dissenting opinion is generally not the best source of legal advice on how to comply with the majority opinion.) “[W]hat cannot be done directly cannot be done indirectly. The Constitution deals with substance, not shadows,” and the prohibition against racial discrimination is “levelled at the thing, not the name.” Cummings v. Missouri, 4 Wall. 277, 325 (1867). A benefit to a student who overcame racial discrimination, for example, must be tied to that student’s courage and determination. Or a benefit to a student whose heritage or culture motivated him or her to assume a leadership role or attain a particular goal must be tied to that student’s unique ability to contribute to the university. In other words, the student must be treated based on his or her experiences as an individual—not on the basis of race.
twobitshifteralmost 2 years ago
The elite schools are cartels of opportunity that feed themselves a self-affirming diet of the smartest people to maintain their place. It’s a diversion to look at your race versus somebody else’s race. That’s only a small fraction of the admission. A fraction of the best and brightest across races will gain admission, but the rest are usually the elites. These people pay for college out-of-pocket but the colleges themselves don’t actually need tuition to function, their endowments are well-funded by the same families ahead of time to maintain the business talent conduit.<p>So what does the elite institution actually do? It largely feeds the smartest to lower business ranks to allow elites to better their portfolios. You are smart when you get out to Harvard and you’ll still be smart when you leave. A great school would change low performers into high performers, but that’s not what Harvard does, it looks for those who will already do well after Harvard. Note that with the business focus on DEI, elites need DEI in their portfolio, but nepotism comes first. DEI is a worthy cause to address structural inequities, but it’s now also a business scorecard.<p>A meritocracy would eliminate the legacy admissions and make admissions not only need-blind but also PII blind. Some elite universities have done need-blind, but this is only sustained by their endowment which is predicated on admitting the less qualified legacies. A meritocracy like this is only possible if the endowment is self sustaining or the college is a public institution. But is meritocracy what we want? Should we focus the most energy on advantaging the already gifted?<p>It’s notable that in other areas of the world, public institutions provide the best education. Here society is less stratified and college is for learning more than networking. What is needed for the same in the US is a change in perception about our elite schools.
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raincomalmost 2 years ago
Harvard used &quot;personality score&quot; to sort out applicants. Now, they got rid of &quot;personality score&quot;, SAT&#x2F;ACT&#x2F;LSAT&#x2F;MCAT, etc., scores. They can tell their feeder schools even four years earlier, how to prepare admission packets for prospective students. Schools like Harvard, Princeton, Yale and Stanford can pick whatever students they want.
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rkagereralmost 2 years ago
When I grew up one of the values instilled in me (moreso by society and personal interactions rather than passed on by my parents) was to see human beings as human beings, without cognitive overhead to their race. i.e. To me it was akin to hair color - neat, but not something by which I&#x27;d make judgements.<p>Theoretically a world which doesn&#x27;t distinguish, seems most equitable (and sane, at least to me). I&#x27;m genuinely trying to understand the impetus toward a different status quo. Is it because the reality of growing up a certain race is so far removed from that ideal that justice requires accommodations be made?<p>Grateful for insight and experiences. I grew up in a diverse city in Canada so my reality may be a bit skewed from readers in other parts of the world.
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pe0x40almost 2 years ago
There are different opinions on affirmative action, and I have to admit assessing people based on what group they are member of, even if your intentions are good, really doesn&#x27;t sound that good to me.<p>I can recommend Thomas Sowell book on the subject: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Affirmative_Action_Around_the_World" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Affirmative_Action_Around_the_...</a>
imperio59almost 2 years ago
Harvard and UNC are well intentioned but they are trying to fix inequities which start much earlier.<p>They sit at the end of 12 years of schooling for applicants, where the quality of that schooling and the level of funding for extra curricular activities will have been vastly different based on where that student lived and which school they attended.<p>Trying to fix this problem at the college admissions level creates the unintended effect and consequence that Asians and whites who are objectively better academic candidates get rejected in favor of non white&#x2F;Asian candidates with lower academic scores. That is wrong and it&#x27;s discrimination on the sole basis of the color of your skin.<p>The real fight needs to be about fixing our education system so every kid of every race and everywhere gets the same high quality education. It means giving parents school choice to take their kids to private school instead of the poorly run public schools that may be near them. It means raising the standards for training teachers so they can have real workable educational tools to make sure their students succeed.<p>You can&#x27;t fix this broken system with more racism, and it was wrong to try to do so.
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cpascalalmost 2 years ago
I think universities can probably come up with a different set of non-protected criteria to lift underrepresented communities out of social&#x2F;financial oppression. This might even provide greater access to some equally needing students that are looked over by racially-based criteria. In a perfect world, everyone would have equal opportunity and support throughout their primary education, and college admission could be much more merit-based. Unfortunately, that is not the country we live in and there is little appetite to invest in ensuring all Americans have access to high-quality primary education.
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Footnote7341almost 2 years ago
The most elite colleges already pre-empted this ruling by rapidly moving towards non-merit based admissions<p>they will just make it so you can&#x27;t really tell if they are using affirmative action or not instead of having it be explicit.
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b8almost 2 years ago
Thomas Sowell successfully convinced me that affirmative action is a disservice with his cogent affirmative action book.
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mahdi7d1almost 2 years ago
I never understood why are people against standardized testing. I would rather fail test than be judged by someone then deemed not worthy.
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dmvdougalmost 2 years ago
Regardless of what your take is on the substance, as a former lawyer, I was really struck at the language in the various concurrences and dissents. They are very clearly pissed and&#x2F;or disgusted with each other in a way that is very not-normal, even for hot button cases.
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arpyzoalmost 2 years ago
If you agree with this decision on the grounds of supporting meritocracy, consider that the real travesty with regards to meritocracy in college admissions are legacy admissions.
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justrealistalmost 2 years ago
&gt; Sotomayor, the court’s first Latina, has been the boldest defender of what she prefers to call “race-sensitive” admission policies and has referred to herself as the “perfect affirmative action child.”<p>That will probably not do a lot to convince those happy with this outcome.
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psychphysicalmost 2 years ago
Good. I&#x27;d be sickened to hear I got a lucrative opportunity because of the colour of my skin (which incidentally is not white and I&#x27;m not oriental so I&#x27;d guess I&#x27;d have benefitted from affirmative action if it was present where I grew up).
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forintialmost 2 years ago
I would like to see lotteries used for this type of thing, because they would be much easier to accept. You could have 10% or 20% percent of candidates chosen by lottery, or have a lottery for all candidates who have the minimum pre-requisites, etc. Some sort of randomness whould guarantee a diversity of candidates and would even span across dimensions which are not even considered currently.
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netheril96almost 2 years ago
As an Asian, all I care about is that we should not atone for the crimes committed by someone else (e.g. the white slave owners). That AA disadvantages Asians the most is quite contrary to the whole &quot;atonement&quot; argument of AA.
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TheCaptain4815almost 2 years ago
The only way affirmative action makes &#x27;logical&#x27; sense to me is if people believe in biological differences of intelligence between races. Not saying I believe this, but it&#x27;s the only way I could think of to logically allow for AA.<p>Because now you have &quot;Race A&quot; paying the same tax rates for public university as &quot;Race B&quot;, yet their children could be biologically limited (on average) in comparison.
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HeavenFoxalmost 2 years ago
One thing I never understood is why colleges themselves fight so hard for affirmative action? Wouldn&#x27;t admitting the most qualified students, regardless of race, be in their own interest? If they are afraid of the political pushback for having too few Black and Hispanics, doesn&#x27;t this decision give them cover?
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exabrialalmost 2 years ago
The LA Times I feel like is 0 for 2 recently on accurately reporting on the Supreme Court:<p>&gt; In other words, the student must be treated based on his or her experiences as an individual — not on the basis of race.<p>I don&#x27;t understand why people are freaking out about this?
pknomadalmost 2 years ago
FWIW, I always thought using ethnicity as a factor was a misguided approach.<p>1. It lumps all ethnic groups into one without any regard for culture or sub-ethnicity, which matters. I think Nigerian immigrants tend to do really really well compared to say their black American counterparts. There&#x27;s also different measured outcome for different groups of Asians (say Vietnamese vs Chinese).<p>2. I understand the desire to correct the past wrong... but going about that via reverse-racism seems also wrong. I think Gandhi said it best when he said &quot;eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.&quot;<p>3. It feels more egalitarian and less discriminatory to fix the past wrong by providing programs&#x2F;support for disadvantaged Americans, regardless of race.
analog31almost 2 years ago
There&#x27;s a lot of discussion about switching to wealth or income as a criterion for diversifying the student body, rather than race or ethnicity. Adding to the blizzard of proposals, here&#x27;s mine:<p>The &quot;elite&quot; colleges can take care of themselves. They will figure out how to curate their student body to maintain whatever image they want to project. And they&#x27;re swimming in money, so let them spend it.<p>Instead, let&#x27;s focus our attention and support on the public universities, community colleges, and tech schools. I&#x27;d never say that low income students &quot;belong&quot; there, but it&#x27;s where they have the best chance of success. And every dollar spent at those schools educates more people.<p>My kids both attended public colleges, and I know plenty of people who have sent their kids to community colleges and trade schools. Those institutions are the true jewels in the crown of higher education.
vuciv1almost 2 years ago
I don’t have anything formal to add.<p>Both my parents were drug addicts, lived separately, beat me, and didn’t pay for my college. Dad was in jail.<p>I am Hispanic and was lucky enough to go to the University of Chicago. I did do very well in school, nearly perfect scores with tons of extracurriculars, but I never knew if I belonged.<p>By the end of my college experience, I did just as well as anyone else in my university, and I have a good job and met lovely and supportive people.<p>I don’t know if I got in because of affirmative action, but if I did, it has forever changed my life
jl6almost 2 years ago
One question I have is: did it work?<p>These types of policies have been in place for decades. We have data on inequality between different demographics over time. So can we detect a measurable improvement attributable to the policy?
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dupedalmost 2 years ago
I admittedly skimmed the opinion, but is this the first case that establishes a private entity like Harvard University is bound by the Equal Protections Clause? I thought existing law and precedent only had it applied to state&#x2F;state actors (and a few cases where private businesses acted like governments, eg company towns).
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dbrownealmost 2 years ago
Amazed that the people who felt disadvantaged because of the one or two accepted Blacks who were possibly below the cut but had significant systemic societal and economic impediments have no problem with all of the incredibly sub par legacy students who are accepted because of their parent&#x27;s wealth. I know of a very affluent person who funded two professorial chairs a year before his music school educated son was accepted at a top 3 business school. No one has a problem with that but they act as if the schools are overflowing with nothing but illiterate and unqualified minorities. Maybe 2% if not less are affirmative action acceptances and that is considered too much. I guess their ancestors intentionally became slaves to ensure their descendants could steal admission spots.
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SaintSeiyaalmost 2 years ago
Good: race, gender, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc should not be used as an advantage, or disadvantage in totally unrelated matters (education, work, etc)
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hnburnsyalmost 2 years ago
Can&#x27;t Harvad et al just stop taking Pell Grants and all other Federal funding and mostly admit who ever they want? If so would they do this or do they value that funding too much?
mattmgalmost 2 years ago
In Brazil, public universities were dominated by the rich, mainly whites, since the entrance exams required high grades that only those who could pay for expensive exam prep courses would have.<p>Since 2012, with the Law of Social Quotas, that reality has changed, since 50% of the new admission spots are destined for students coming from public high schools, with further subdivisions for racial minorities based on the demographic makeup of each Brazilian state. Those racial minorities quotas are as high as 30% at some universities.<p>I could personally see that change, since I did undergrad in engineering 10 years ago, and my colleagues were mainly white. I&#x27;m doing another undergrad and my new colleagues come from truly different backgrounds, some are black, poor, from indigenous origin... and that matters because if we don&#x27;t share the same spaces as universities students, we probably won&#x27;t share latter on, when occupying spaces of power
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TradingPlacesalmost 2 years ago
1. The largest beneficiaries of admissions policies at elite institutions are legacy admissions of wealth alumni’s kids. If SCOTUS wants to interfere with the admissions policies of private institutions based on the equal protections clause, maybe that’s a better place to start.<p>2. The vast majority of students attend colleges that accept almost everyone.
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poorbutdebtfreealmost 2 years ago
This is good. When life and death is on the line I don&#x27;t want some guy&#x2F;girl&#x2F;thing with a lower SAT&#x2F;IQ score than me doing the differential diagnosis.
wnc3141almost 2 years ago
I think it&#x27;s worth considering how much economic mobility is tied to economic status prior to college. I find a purely race based admission system fails to identify that, and in place gives an easier solution to building diversity compared to giving discounted education to those who can not afford it.<p>Of course there remains issues of opportunity for students of color, who are more likely than white students from disadvantaged backgrounds. However economic status, or rural&#x2F;urban based admissions would capture many of these inequalities.<p>Of course this all comes from a conversation that supposes college should be as scarce as it is, and that the earnings benefit from college should be as large as it is.
Jun8almost 2 years ago
Excellent analysis from Matthew Yglesias: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.slowboring.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;19-thoughts-on-affirmative-action" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.slowboring.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;19-thoughts-on-affirmative-acti...</a>
Georgelementalalmost 2 years ago
Clarence Thomas&#x27;s concurrence does not mince words:<p>&gt; This, [Justice Jackson] claims, locks blacks into a seemingly perpetual inferior caste. Such a view is irrational; it is an insult to individual achievement and cancerous to young minds seeking to push through barriers, rather than consign themselves to permanent victimhood. [...] What it cannot do is use the applicant’s skin color as a heuristic, assuming that because the applicant checks the box for “black” he therefore conforms to the university’s monolithic and reductionist view of an abstract, average black person.<p>&gt; Accordingly, JUSTICE JACKSON’s race-infused world view falls flat at each step. Individuals are the sum of their unique experiences, challenges, and accomplishments. What matters is not the barriers they face, but how they choose to confront them. And their race is not to blame for everything—good or bad—that happens in their lives. A contrary, myopic world view based on individuals’ skin color to the total exclusion of their personal choices is nothing short of racial determinism.<p>&gt; JUSTICE JACKSON then builds from her faulty premise to call for action, arguing that courts should defer to “experts” and allow institutions to discriminate on the basis of race. Make no mistake: Her dissent is not a vanguard of the innocent and helpless. It is instead a call to empower privileged elites, who will “tell us [what] is required to level the playing field” among castes and classifications that they alone can divine. Post, at 26; see also post, at 5–7 (GORSUCH , J., concurring) (explaining the arbitrariness of these classifications). Then, after siloing us all into racial castes and pitting those castes against each other, the dissent somehow believes that we will be able—at some undefined point—to “march forward together” into some utopian vision. Post, at 26 (opinion of JACKSON, J.). Social movements that invoke these sorts of rallying cries, historically, have ended disastrously.<p>&gt; Unsurprisingly, this tried-and-failed system defies both law and reason. Start with the obvious: If social reorganization in the name of equality may be justified by the mere fact of statistical disparities among racial groups, then that reorganization must continue until these disparities are fully eliminated, regardless of the reasons for the disparities and the cost of their elimination. [...] If those measures were to result in blacks failing at yet higher rates, the only solution would be to double down. In fact, there would seem to be no logical limit to what the government may do to level the racial playing field—outright wealth transfers, quota systems, and racial preferences would all seem permissible. In such a system, it would not matter how many innocents suffer race-based injuries; all that would matter is reaching the race-based goal.<p>[...]<p>&gt; The great failure of this country was slavery and its progeny. And, the tragic failure of this Court was its misinterpretation of the Reconstruction Amendments, as Justice Harlan predicted in Plessy. We should not repeat this mistake merely because we think, as our predecessors thought, that the present arrangements are superior to the Constitution.<p>&gt; The Court’s opinion rightly makes clear that Grutter is, for all intents and purposes, overruled. And, it sees the universities’ admissions policies for what they are: rudderless, race-based preferences designed to ensure a particular racial mix in their entering classes. Those policies fly in the face of our colorblind Constitution and our Nation’s equality ideal. In short, they are plainly—and boldly—unconstitutional. See Brown II, 349 U. S., at 298 (noting that the Brown case one year earlier had “declare[d] the fundamental principle that racial discrimination in public education is unconstitutional”).<p>&gt; While I am painfully aware of the social and economic ravages which have befallen my race and all who suffer discrimination, I hold out enduring hope that this country will live up to its principles so clearly enunciated in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States: that all men are created equal, are equal citizens, and must be treated equally before the law.
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tomohawkalmost 2 years ago
Clarence Thomas&#x27; concurring opinion begins on page 49. He pulls no punches, and its worth a read.<p>His concluding 3 paragraphs:<p>&gt; The great failure of this country was slavery and its progeny. And, the tragic failure of this Court was its misinterpretation of the Reconstruction Amendments, as Justice Harlan predicted in Plessy. We should not repeat this mistake merely because we think, as our predecessors thought, that the present arrangements are superior to the Constitution.<p>&gt; The Court’s opinion rightly makes clear that Grutter is, for all intents and purposes, overruled. And, it sees the universities’ admissions policies for what they are: rudderless, race-based preferences designed to ensure a particular racial mix in their entering classes. Those policies fly in the face of our colorblind Constitution and our Nation’s equality ideal. In short, they are plainly—and boldly—unconstitutional. See Brown II, 349 U. S., at 298 (noting that the Brown case one year earlier had “declare[d] the fundamental principle that racial discrimination in public education is unconstitutional”).<p>&gt; While I am painfully aware of the social and economic ravages which have befallen my race and all who suffer discrimination, I hold out enduring hope that this country will live up to its principles so clearly enunciated in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States: that all men are created equal, are equal citizens, and must be treated equally before the law.
ayakang31415almost 2 years ago
If you read Harvard&#x27;s response to the rule, you will quickly realize that they can still decide who gets the admission based on race without ADMITTING THAT because even if there is no checkbox for race on the application, they can still figure what kind of race each applicant is and they can still evaluate how the race impacted the applicant&#x27;s life for the consideration of admission.
mcpackiehalmost 2 years ago
A good development but I think this won&#x27;t stop the practice. Harvard lawyers are now hard at work finding new way to achieve the same effect.
jxramosalmost 2 years ago
6&#x2F;23&#x2F;2003 --&gt; 6&#x2F;29&#x2F;2023 Looks like the justices&#x27; expected illegality in 25 years was actually prophetic, 5 years from now in 2028 this has now all become illegal <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Grutter_v._Bollinger" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Grutter_v._Bollinger</a>
bluecalmalmost 2 years ago
Sanity prevailed. The different reads like a political manifesto rather than a legal opinion.<p>You need a mental gymnastics of the highest order to justify racist policies like the ones employed by Harvard. Sometimes people get so deep into ideology that they can&#x27;t think straight anymore. Ask someone detaches from American political discourse to read the Constitution and then ask them how adding points for race plays with that.<p>Coming from a former communist country where &quot;social class points&quot; where the thing we were so happy to get over I can&#x27;t see how affirmative action isn&#x27;t just a worse, more blatant and unjust version of that.
orblivionalmost 2 years ago
I could understand how this applies to state universities, but how does the US Constitution have this kind of jurisdiction over Harvard?
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Spivakalmost 2 years ago
&gt; Nothing in this opinion should be construed as prohibiting universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration, or otherwise.<p>But this <i>is</i> affirmative action. What did they strike down?<p>Also god damn I hate this supreme court for overruling their own decisions. Even the ones I would personally benefit from. This is going to ruin the court in the long run for partisan bullshit. If going to the court twice for the same issue can get you different decisions then the ruling of the court means absolutely fucking nothing. You might as well just continue your affirmative action program because the next time the court makeup might be different and they&#x27;ll change their mind again.<p>This was already decided forty years ago <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Regents_of_the_University_of_California_v._Bakke" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Regents_of_the_University_of_C...</a>
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TheRealDunkirkalmost 2 years ago
So, legally, does this apply to corporate quotas by extension?
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PKopalmost 2 years ago
Good thread summarizing and highlighting key points of the majority opinion:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;RichardHanania&#x2F;status&#x2F;1674427087514636290" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;RichardHanania&#x2F;status&#x2F;167442708751463629...</a>
mucle6almost 2 years ago
I can see the social good of admitting disadvantaged groups, but how does it help the individual colleges?<p>I can&#x27;t come up with a clear path from increased diversity to increased profitability.<p>I must be missing something because for profit entities don&#x27;t do things out of the kindness of their heart.
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syngrog66almost 2 years ago
I wrote my thoughts on this news (and how it relates to MLK) here:<p>&quot;I Have A Dream&quot; Today <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;synystron.substack.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;i-have-a-dream-today" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;synystron.substack.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;i-have-a-dream-today</a>
subpixelalmost 2 years ago
I&#x27;d rather live in a society that made it an imperative to have more students from more ethnicities be eligible for the best universities every year.<p>That requires addressing inequality earlier, and more thoroughly, and across more axes, than an approach that is, in the final analysis, about setting quotas based on ethnicity.<p>Affirmative action can do everything it was designed to do while having essentially zero impact on inequality in society at large - it&#x27;s always seemed like a cop out to me.
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uejfiweunalmost 2 years ago
Y&#x27;know, I predict that this will change absolutely nothing. Racial preferences in admissions will simply go from official policy to unofficial policy..
lazyantalmost 2 years ago
My take is, there&#x27;s no completely &quot;fair&quot; and &quot;merit-based&quot; way to measure university applicants. But can we approximate by using a ranking based solely on grades and financials? leave out essays (that can be paid for), race, extra curriculars, legacy etc. Adding some randomness (lottery for people on the same band) is an extra idea.
bluepod4almost 2 years ago
Can someone explain why the military academies were explicitly exempt from this ruling when their policies are similar to those of UNC and Harvard?
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twilightzonealmost 2 years ago
&quot;In researching the genealogies of America’s political elite, a Reuters examination found that a fifth of the nation’s congressmen, living presidents, Supreme Court justices and governors are direct descendants of ancestors who enslaved Black people.<p>Among 536 members of the last sitting Congress, Reuters determined at least 100 descend from slaveholders. Of that group, more than a quarter of the Senate – 28 members – can trace their families to at least one slaveholder.&quot;<p>Elsewhere: &quot;Two of the nine sitting U.S. Supreme Court justices – Amy Coney Barrett and Neil Gorsuch – also have direct ancestors who enslaved people.&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reuters.com&#x2F;investigates&#x2F;special-report&#x2F;usa-slavery-lawmakers&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reuters.com&#x2F;investigates&#x2F;special-report&#x2F;usa-slav...</a><p>This is only politicians, doesn&#x27;t include former and present business leaders. Wealth may have disappeared at certain points, but the social networks remained and wealth was rebuilt. It&#x27;s a fascinating read - Barack Obama&#x27;s ancestors were part of that club!<p>I understand that many think this was a good decision because logic, but let&#x27;s hope the same enthusiasm goes into figuring out a way to deal with the disparities that were born back then, at both ends of the spectrum.
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cod1ralmost 2 years ago
High quality education and resources being gate-kept makes less sense moving forward. Easiest solution is to let a LOT more people in regardless of background. Letting more people in means you get more money anyways. Who cares if letting in more people makes things less &quot;elite&quot;. Elitism is cringe.
caditinpiscinamalmost 2 years ago
For people who are against affirmative action, what is your preferred course of action, given the racial disparities that exist in academia? I see three options:<p>1) say that these disparities are inevitable<p>2) wait for the disparities disappear on their own<p>3) address the disparities through some other policy or initiative
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seanw444almost 2 years ago
This comment section is a frightening wake-up call to how peoples&#x27; mindsets are nowadays. I choose to believe that it&#x27;s over-represented on HN because most people that exercise interest in the topics HN is made for, are the stereotypical liberal types.
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alberthalmost 2 years ago
DEI?<p>Does this impact internal corporate DEI programs?
AlexB138almost 2 years ago
Here&#x27;s the opinion: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.supremecourt.gov&#x2F;opinions&#x2F;22pdf&#x2F;20-1199_hgdj.pdf" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.supremecourt.gov&#x2F;opinions&#x2F;22pdf&#x2F;20-1199_hgdj.pdf</a>
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nunyabid5655almost 2 years ago
Colleges in Boston in the last ten years have been inundated by international students, a majority of which are the wealthy elite from mainland China
sacnoradhqalmost 2 years ago
I find the timing of this decision curious because it reverses an appeal by Asian students who were previously denied by SCOTUS.
gsainesalmost 2 years ago
I am not a lawyer, but I worked on a project at Facebook years ago that touches on the underlying case law here. I spent a full year of my life bashing my head against opaque legal precedents to understand how to build a product that met legal requirements and user needs. Maybe this comment will prove useful in distilling some of the nuance here so you don’t have to spend 12 months of your life doing what I did.<p>This decision confirms a nearly-unanimous legal consensus that existed before this ruling about the legality of disparate treatment vs disparate impact.<p>Disparate treatment is enshrined as illegal in other legislation like the fair credit and lending act. It basically states that the use of protected class data for most use cases is illegal. I know the most about how this is interpreted in the context of private companies, but my understanding is that the embargo on the data use is much broader.<p>Disparate impact, by contrast, is a legal theory without much case law to support it, but it asserts that what is illegal is not the use of the protected class data, but unequal outcomes.<p>This is super thorny territory. On the surface, disparate treatment (which again, is what the court upheld here) appears to only reinforce the racist, sexist, unequal status quo. And personally, I agree, but it at least prevents overt discrimination on the basis of race, sex, and other important human characteristics. The law right now makes it illegal to outright say that you are treating someone else differently on the basis of those traits. It doesn’t prevent all the other ways to still be racist and sexist and awful, though.<p>So you might say, let’s go with disparate outcome, then! And this is indeed what I first thought. But there are huge problems here, too. First, the only way to ensure that outcomes are equal is … to measure and report on the very traits we think are sensitive. This wouldn’t just be invasive, it would entrench the collection and measurement of this information. I can think of a lot of ways that bad actors could misuse petabytes of accurate racial demographic information in ways that would make current ML-based inferences and regression correlations laughably indirect.<p>Then there’s the issue of whether or important things in our society should be equal at all. Take the example of sex and employment. There are professions that are heavily male or female dominated. How would you feel if a colleague of the opposite sex with no training in your discipline was offered 2x as much compensation as you to perform the same task because society insisted that your profession have exactly equal representation? I think of myself a bit of a bleeding heart liberal, but I don’t think that’s a desirable outcome.<p>And then there are the second and third order effects to consider. Is the fact that most commercial truck drivers are men a reflection of different preferences, social norms, or something altogether different? I have no idea and I’m not about to go all Charles Murray and act like I do.<p>My goal in writing such a long post isn’t to make an apologist defense for what seem to me a clearly socially regressive finding from the Supreme Court, just that finding a better alternative is really, really hard.<p>So let’s not get discouraged by this setback. Let’s find a better alternative and get that written into law.
ecshaferalmost 2 years ago
The best method of college entrance is whats done in east asia. China does the Gaokao (hard SAT), and students list their university preferences and filters students into colleges based on their score and their preferences. Japan takes entrance exams for a university. These seem like infinitely fairer methods than the US where they try and correct for disadvantage in a variety ways.
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kernalalmost 2 years ago
Racial discrimination is racial discrimination no matter how you try to sugar coat it.
Flatcirclealmost 2 years ago
What does this mean in practice?
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purplebluealmost 2 years ago
I&#x27;m happy this happened because Asians are the only ethnicity that suffers true systemic racism when it comes to education.<p>However, my fear is that the universities are working hard to figure out ways to continue this practice against Asian Americans by skirting around the rules.
kneebonianalmost 2 years ago
A very interesting quote from the ruling:<p>&#x27;These classifications rest on incoherent stereotypes. Take the “Asian” category. It sweeps into one pile East Asians (e.g., Chinese, Korean, Japanese) and South Asians (e.g., Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi), even though together they constitute about 60% of the world’s population. Bernstein Amicus Brief 2, 5. This agglomeration of so many peoples paves over countless differences in “language,” “culture,” and historical experience. Id., at 5–6. It does so even though few would suggest that all such persons share “similar backgrounds and similar ideas and experiences.” Fisher v. University of Tex. at Austin, 579 U. S. 365, 414 (2016) (ALITO, J., dissenting). Consider, as well, the development of a separate category for “Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander.” It seems federal officials disaggregated these groups from the “Asian” category only in the 1990s and only “in response to political lobbying.” Bernstein Amicus Brief 9–10. And even that category contains its curiosities. It appears, for example, that Filipino Americans remain classified as “Asian” rather than “Other Pacific Islander.” See 4 App. in No. 21–707, at 1732. The remaining classifications depend just as much on irrational stereotypes. The “Hispanic” category covers those whose ancestral language is Spanish, Basque, or Catalan— but it also covers individuals of Mayan, Mixtec, or Zapotec descent who do not speak any of those languages and whose ancestry does not trace to the Iberian Peninsula but bears deep ties to the Americas. See Bernstein Amicus Brief 10–<p>The “White” category sweeps in anyone from “Europe, Asia west of India, and North Africa.” Id., at 14. That includes those of Welsh, Norwegian, Greek, Italian, Moroccan, Lebanese, Turkish, or Iranian descent. It embraces an Iraqi or Ukrainian refugee as much as a member of the British royal family. Meanwhile, “Black or African American” covers everyone from a descendant of enslaved persons who grew up poor in the rural South, to a first-generation child of wealthy Nigerian immigrants, to a Black-identifying applicant with multiracial ancestry whose family lives in a typical American suburb. See id., at 15–16. If anything, attempts to divide us all up into a handful of groups have become only more incoherent with time. American families have become increasingly multicultural, a fact that has led to unseemly disputes about whether someone is really a member of a certain racial or ethnic group. There are decisions denying Hispanic status to someone of ItalianArgentine descent, Marinelli Constr. Corp. v. New York, 200 App. Div. 2d 294, 296–297, 613 N. Y. S. 2d 1000, 1002 (1994), as well as someone with one Mexican grandparent, Major Concrete Constr., Inc. v. Erie County, 134 App. Div. 2d 872, 873, 521 N. Y. S. 2d 959, 960 (1987). Yet there are also decisions granting Hispanic status to a Sephardic Jew whose ancestors fled Spain centuries ago, In re RothschildLynn Legal &amp; Fin. Servs., SBA No. 499, 1995 WL 542398, 2–4 (Apr. 12, 1995), and bestowing a “sort of Hispanic” status on a person with one Cuban grandparent, Bernstein, 94 S. Cal. L. Rev., at 232 (discussing In re Kist Corp., 99 F. C. C. 2d 173, 193 (1984)).&#x27;
anthkalmost 2 years ago
This is good. The criteria should be based on income, not the race.
max_almost 2 years ago
Why don&#x27;t they Just ban people from divulging what college thet went to during Job applications?<p>Not everyone can go to an Ivy League College. Employers should only be focusing on GPA or other performance metrics. If its really about meritocracy.
A4ET8a8uTh0almost 2 years ago
&lt;&lt; Eliminating racial discrimination means eliminating all of it.<p>Yep.
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ChoGGialmost 2 years ago
You can&#x27;t fix racism with more racism.
kadomonyalmost 2 years ago
Interesting to see if companies will be slapped back to reality away from their DEI bullshit that hires lesser qualified individuals simply because of their levels of melanin.
adamrezichalmost 2 years ago
if I were a non-white adversarial nation with plenty of high-achieving youth, I would take maximal advantage of this decision and the US&#x27;s student visa programs by doing everything I could to send as many students from my country to US colleges as absolutely possible, so as to deprive American youth of college education as much as possible.
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Eumenesalmost 2 years ago
Good - lets do the workplace next.
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flippinburgersalmost 2 years ago
Sounds good to me.
Osirisalmost 2 years ago
I think public college admission should just be a random lottery.
dredayalmost 2 years ago
Ok. Did they propose a different way to combat systemic racism?
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systemvoltagealmost 2 years ago
It&#x27;s strange that no one is talking about that if it weren&#x27;t for Trump and the conservative nominees, we&#x27;d still be stuck with AA. The dissent was apalling and completely ideological.
DeathArrowalmost 2 years ago
Please unflag this.
dmixalmost 2 years ago
Why is this flagged? Previous discussions were at the top of HN.
rbrownalmost 2 years ago
why was this flagged?
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shmdealmost 2 years ago
Wow flagged within 30 mins before people could even start having a discussion. HN audience is wild.
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teklaalmost 2 years ago
&quot;Racism in US college admission has been banned&quot;<p>I&#x27;m a huge fan of this.
pjc50almost 2 years ago
That won&#x27;t stop people complaining about it.
Eumenesalmost 2 years ago
A win for meritocracy - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.aei.org&#x2F;carpe-diem&#x2F;new-chart-illustrates-graphically-racial-preferences-for-blacks-and-hispanics-being-admitted-to-us-medical-schools&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.aei.org&#x2F;carpe-diem&#x2F;new-chart-illustrates-graphic...</a>
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0xbadcafebeealmost 2 years ago
&gt; In other words, the student must be treated based on his or her experiences as an individual — not on the basis of race.<p>You... can&#x27;t. Even if you want to only consider the individual experience, race is deeply tied up with the individual experience. If you <i>only</i> considered race, that would be even more crazy. But you cannot just ignore race, as much as you want to.
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kaitaialmost 2 years ago
A white legacy applicant at Harvard is 5 times as likely to be admitted as a non-legacy white applicant. &quot;Our model of admissions shows that roughly three-quarters of white ALDC admits would have been rejected if they had been treated as typical white applicants.&quot;<p>All of you writing that if a Black kid gets admitted then some white or Asian kid gets bumped off are scrapping for the little bits the rich have left to you, while misunderstanding the fundamental mathematics at work. You&#x27;re pawns. This is the genius of racism -- sow manufactured division among the &quot;little people&quot; so that those on top (of whatever color) can continue comfortably while no one else can rise.<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;public.econ.duke.edu&#x2F;~psarcidi&#x2F;legacyathlete.pdf" rel="nofollow noreferrer">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;public.econ.duke.edu&#x2F;~psarcidi&#x2F;legacyathlete.pdf</a>
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