"Lighten up"

You see, I have problem with posts like this.<p>First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset.<p>But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying.<p><pre><code> "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" </code></pre> I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's <i>cool</i> to say things like that. As I'm getting older, I see how sexist and demeaning this is. But it's really hard to break this habit, and this "Hey, it's just meaningless joke, right?!" line of thought. I try, I really try, but sometimes I forget myself.<p>On a similar note - I have exact same problem with how I perceive woman and man having multiple sexual partners. "Good key opens many locks, but good lock is opened by only one key" and all that bullshit - I <i>know</i> that it's ridiculous to hold woman and men to different standard in this regard, and I mostly learned to don't do that, but my... <i>instinct</i> that was ingrained in me by society tells me otherwise.<p>I find myself struggling to suppress my subconscious mind in this regard, and frankly, I don't know how I can help it.<p>Edit for clarity: I don't have problem with such posts being written and upvoted, quite opposite actually, I'm glad they are written and read. I have problem with how posts like this make me feel.

It's a big deal. Not "lightening up" is a service to the company (and, I guess, the whole industry). I'm married to a woman who has put up with a lot of shit in this field (for instance: job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; I was, fortunately for all involved, in a different state when that happened) and am the father of an absurdly intelligent 10 year old girl who will, with enough not- taking- one- iota- of- shit for the next 10 years, not have to suffer any of this.<p>So I guess what I'm saying is thanks.

<i>As the woman, I've been the only person in the group asked to put together a pot luck (presumably, this work is beneath the males). I've been the only one asked to take notes in a meeting... even if I'm the one who's presenting (because my title really should be 'secretary who we let on the servers').</i><p>This, more than the jokes and comments, is the meat of the problem. Inappropriate jokes can be much more easily addressed as soon as they happen - if you're in a meeting and your boss asks you to 'please pull up your blouse because your wonderful breasts are distracting everyone' you can much more easily address it right then and there.<p>But if your boss asks you to take notes, the first couple of times it happens, it could just as well be random (though it isn't, really). It is much harder to say 'no, not taking notes, you only want me to do that because I'm a woman' even when it's true. What's worse is that even when you do notice a pattern, it's harder to address than a rude remark. It's (a) hard to prove it was because of your sex as opposed to some other aspect of your personality ('maybe he thinks you're just good at organizing potlucks, sheesh' - 'you took notes that first time so well!') and (b) behavior is much harder to correct when you have to point out things that happened in the past. 'I take notes 50% of the time, in a group of 5' just doesn't seem to have the same effect on humans, especially in a society where intent is often judged above effect.<p>I'm not a woman, but this is what it seems to me, from what I've observed.<p>edit: I can't find the study I was looking for, but they had a group of people evaluate two sets of identical resumes, with female and male names, for 'competence' and 'likeability'. For males, competence was correlated with likeability, but for females it was anticorrelated, even though the resumes were identical. Less people will think you an 'ice queen' if you call out an inappropriate remark, but countering the above form of sexism seems far more difficult to do while preserving 'likeability' -- 'what's the big deal, I just asked her to take notes!' If anyone else knows where the study is, I would be grateful.

I find posts like this extremely frustrating.<p>Yes, I feel sorry for this woman.<p>However, I also feel sorry for all male programmers. A lot of male programmers I've met have extremely pent-up sexual drives. A lot of them do not feel comfortable with women or society.<p>The prototypical male programmer was extremely nerdy in adolescence, had minimal interaction with women, and sex life - forget it. Now they are working in a job where they can just do what they like - program - and a woman comes along with all those pheremones and everything. And yes he acts awkward and crazy because holy shit there is a WOMAN who does what he does.<p>I fucking hate all of this talk about "manchildren" and "brogrammers" and whatever else. Stop essentializing the problem. Stop the man hate. Fucking hell.<p>Do you really think the man who said:<p>"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"<p>is a happy, mentally-healthy, well-adjusted human being? Hmmm? Where's the compassion for him?<p>Why is our reaction to superficial wrongdoing so fucking immediate and moralistic? As if he's not a person with his own problems?<p>I'm at a loss for words, this whole clusterfuck makes me so angry.

This just makes me sad for the industry as a whole. Unbelievable that in today's world women have to put up with this.<p>Guys, want to know how you can help change these kinds of attitudes? When you see/hear another guy make these kinds of comments, pull them aside and have a talk. Maybe it's a gentle reminder of how hurtful and counterproductive these kinds of attitudes are, or maybe it's a forceful "I never want to hear that shit again" - depends on the type of personality you're dealing with. Regardless, you need to have the difficult conversations with friends or colleagues who act this way, because turning a blind eye and ignoring the problem doesn't help anyone.

I applaud the author for sharing her feelings. I also note that she does not speak for all women. All we can do is share our own experiences.<p>I've been through many of these discussions: sexism, racism, ageism, and so on. After receiving many a rhetorical punch in the nose, I have a simple rule: I don't do it, I don't approve of it being done, if I am in management I stop it. I also don't let people yank me around by the emotional heartstrings. I reserve moral outrage for things like millions of people starving around the world, or slavery, or hundreds of millions dying of disease. Others are certainly capable of being moved by whatever they desire, but I find more harm being done by actual people dying than by the compound personality flaws of millions of my fellow citizens.<p>I don't mean that to be insensitive. Like I said, I am in complete agreement that this goes on and it must stop. Immediately. I'm just saying from prior experience I find that discussions like this never tend to go anywhere productive.

I hate those "lighten up" comments. Bullies just love that phrase. Put someone down and when they push back, "ah gee, lighten up, it was just a joke". It's extremely cowardly and disgusting and reminiscent of prepubescent school yard antics. Many women have to put up with such shit on a regular basis.

As an employee of the University of California, I'm compelled to take annual sexual harassment training, that is, how to identify situations and behaviors that constitute sexual harassment as it has been legally defined. A lot of what was mentioned in the post and in the comments here would be regarded as reportable offenses, if not prosecutable offenses. People should know the law - this stuff can get you in real trouble. If you're in California, this might apply [pdf]:<p><a href="http://atyourservice.ucop.edu/employees/policies_employee_labor_relations/sexual_harassment_policies/sh_policy.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://atyourservice.ucop.edu/employees/policies_employee_la...</a><p>If you're not in California, but you're running a business you may find it quite interesting, eg:<p><i>Sexual harassment is unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature, when submission to or rejection of this conduct explicitly or implicitly affects a person’s employment or education, unreasonably interferes with a person’s work or educational performance, or creates an intimidating, hostile or offensive working or learning environment. ... This policy covers unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature.</i>

"What do you say to the guy who sits across from you when you dress up and makes a comment to everyone about it? "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"<p>Yikes! What sort of a place was this, what sort of people was she working with? I've never seen/heard anything <i>remotely</i> like this.<p>It is sort of hard to generalize from such morons to the whole tech field.

I can't seem to find a study which showed that while only %3 of men ever make such comments, women involved in our community experience this a steady stream of subtle harassment. And the sad fact is that this is due to the lopsided share of men to women.<p>If we had a 50/50 split some women would never hear such comments, some would hear then extremely rarely, while the percentage of men making them would stay the same.<p>And can we ever hope to get 100% of any large group anywhere, to <i>never</i> make occasionally offensive remarks? The crux here really is that this type of offensive remarks have only one target - women, and that combined with the lop-sided sex ratio results in harassment.

Dunno. I'm a woman, and I think that blog poster needs to lighten up.<p>I've worked in IT for years - usually as the only woman on the team - and I've never felt degraded or discriminated against for being female. Maybe slight prejudices in the beginning when the guys think I'm not as good as them, but I enjoy proving them wrong. There is banter, and sometimes it's not 100% HR approved, but I've never felt that it was mean spirited or intended to put me down. I've found that by and large, computer engineers are super-nice, funny, and respectful towards women.<p>The comment about the guy noticing her low-cut dress and wanting to sit near her... not entirely appropriate, but is this really bad enough to run to HR and complain? That said, I wouldn't feel comfortable drawing attention with my clothes, so I would never wear something low-cut. I find that a lightweight cotton dress shirt is more comfortable than a tight, low-cut top anyway. If someone asked me to arrange a pot-luck or bring them coffee, it would simply not be happening.<p>I'm on the East Coast though. Maybe all the disrespectful frat boy "brogrammers" are working on the West Coast?

My wife puts up with this all the time. She is an assertive and decisive businessperson, but is labelled "abrasive" and "a bitch" because she isn't meek, submissive and soft-spoken. The same behavior in males is encouraged and rewarded.<p>My parent's generation moved us past overt sexism; our generation needs to move us past subtle sexism. Otherwise, we are still wasting a large part of our human potential.

Honest question: Why is it so bad when guys treat gals like they're just one of the guys?<p>Guys give each other small disparaging jabs all the time, be it the workplace or a party between friends, it's what we do to fit in; it's how our social groups work and what keeps them together.<p>I've never been female, so I don't know what it looks like from their perspective, but to me telling a lass to go back to the kitchen is on the same level as telling a guy he should stick to computers because he sure as hell sucks at talking to girls.

Thanks for this. I’m going to be more aware of these kind of things and more watchful to make sure I don’t contribute to this myself and more observant of those around me.<p>Now, I have a question for the women here — sometimes I’ll hear a <i>woman</i> make the joke about belonging in the kitchen. Do you have insight into why that might happen sometimes and what the best sort of response would be?

While I sympathize for the person, I can't help but wonder if it was the right decision. She's going to be facing the same problems in every male-dominated industry; is it worth giving up the thing you love? I can't answer, obviously, because I'm male, and in a different position besides that.<p>Thankfully, I've never run into this in real life. I've always worked with coworkers respectful of each other, and I can't imagine tolerating that kind of sexism without any confrontation. One would think people would learn to interact—or rather, which interactions are harmful—with people of different genders at a younger age.

Kind of meta, but I've noticed two things from this thread<p>1) I think I always imagine everyone here as a man, unless they identify themselves otherwise or I notice their username suggests they're female, and<p>2) reading the female voices here really gave me the sense of HN as a much richer, more interesting community

Being an ex-queer (bi ;) I've had to put up with my fair share of subtle jabs and general discomfort with my presence. After a long time I figured out that the only thing that worked for me was to be more dominant than 'them.'<p>The thing is, women (and queers) are fucking powerful, they're just powerful in a different way. Ironically, but not unsurprisingly, women are taught not to use this power as it's 'inappropriate.'<p>You see, men don't have a clue as to how group dynamics work. Women do and have been trained in this from childhood on as it is their 'arena' just as much as the sports field is ours.<p>When we enter the workforce however, suddenly 'fair' means fighting like it happens on the sports field, 'fair' means fighting the boys' fight.<p>In the workplace, open competitiveness and overt displays of hierarchical dominance (boy's game) are perfectly acceptable, but figuring out the motives of your enemy's friends, observing when he breaks them and subtly informing those friends about that in order to weaken his support base (girl's game) is considered 'nasty.'<p>When I finally accepted that this was bullshit, everything turned around for me.<p>Whenever someone did something like this to me, over the next few days several of his allies would get a quick visit from me with some nice small-talk and a little one-liner thrown in about how X hurt me by doing Y. Within days X would find himself somewhat more alienated, perhaps reprimanded slightly by one of his peers about Y, left to wonder what he did wrong.<p>Over time it was as if a subconscious message spread across the workfloor: "You'd better respect me. If you don't your life will become a lot harder and you'll have no idea how the fuck it happened."<p>Now for everyone who reads this and thinks my description of this is disgusting, please understand that I'm merely able to describe it this way as I've had the fairly unique perspective of having been a part of both 'worlds.' From a woman's perspective an in-depth analysis of mens' quest for dominance would sound equally messed up.<p>Just like very few men understand a woman's world, very few women understand a man's world.<p>TL;DR; Men and women establish hierarchies in different ways. Women have been taught their way is inappropriate in business. They should do it anyhow.<p>P.S. Funnily enough, after I started dating a girl and 'became straight,' the women on the floor suddenly started calling me out on this behavior and nudged me back into the 'male hierarchy.'

My non-programmer friends and family are always bewildered when I tell them that I hope my daughter doesn't grow up to be a programmer. The reason why is because I'm afraid her life would be like the OP's. There is indeed a subtle sexism in our industry. That's why things like yesterday's Sqoot screwup happen so frequently.<p>Of course, every workplace is different and I'm sure there are plenty of places where women don't have to deal with the bullshit described in this article. However, they are far from the norm. I can see why the OP would want to leave the industry rather than be the person constantly reporting people to HR and lecturing them about proper behavior. It may be the right thing to do, but it's also extremely uncomfortable and just as likely to create an even more hostile working environment than before.

Would you enjoy working with this author, regardless of gender?<p>I work on a small team - just over 20 people - with only four women.<p>Every single one is a hilarious, self-possessed, confident individual. All the men, myself included, treat them with respect... meaning, we tease the shit out of them.<p>To do otherwise would exclude them from the team. Have you ever seen a cohesive group that didn't joke around? A tiny fraction of the jabs traded by men are HR-approved... if we filtered that for the women who work with us, we would be treating them as if they're too weak or too sensitive to be a part of the group.<p>So instead, we treat them no differently than any other team member. If one of the other coders were to arrive unusually dressed up, I would absolutely comment on it, regardless of whether it's a suit or a dress, but one of the ladies would probably beat me to it. Frankly, the women push the HR line harder than any of us guys, and we love them for it.<p>If you find that people are consistently telling you to "lighten up," whether you're male or female, you shouldn't assume that the world is conspiring to put you down. You're probably just no fun to work with.

Sounds like another argument for more people to read <i></i><i>"How to Win Friends and Influence People"</i><i></i>[1]:<p>For the people making sexist comments, there are lots of interesting stories and points in there. But obviously you can't force people to read the book, and expect any difference!<p>However, it is very applicable for the OP also. Take for example this overview of one chapter:<p><pre><code> How to Change People Without Giving Offense or Arousing Resentment: Begin with praise and honest appreciation. Call attention to people's mistakes indirectly. Talk about your own mistakes before criticizing the other person. Ask questions instead of giving direct orders. Let the other person save face. Praise every improvement. Give the other person a fine reputation to live up to. Use encouragement. Make the fault seem easy to correct. Make the other person happy about doing what you suggest. </code></pre> [1] - <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influenc...</a>

Silicon Valley investors (PG included) prefer to invest in young rockstarish startups, so why are we surprised when we see these high profile startups do immature and sexist things?<p>If maturity and manners were important to investors, they would be screening for it. As far as I know, they are not.

This post raises two issues which everyone keeps conflating. I don't think we can have a productive discussion unless they're kept separate.<p>The first issue is the "you should take notes" mindset. This one is unequivocally wrong. The second issue is the "low cut blouse" remark, which I feel is wrong only by social convention.<p>Here's why the first issue is wrong: It implies that women don't belong in this line of work, that they can't do it effectively, and that they should get out. Factually wrong.<p>The second issue is wrong largely by social convention, I think. It's natural for men and women to be attracted to others in the work place. It's hard to avoid. That said, by social convention we're not supposed to talk about it. Talking about it makes you seem creepy since you're flouting social convention and if you're willing to do that, what else are you willing to do....?<p>However, if the underlying physiological response is not inappropriate (and I don't think it's fair to suggest that it's inappropriate -- it's how we're wired), then how could it be logically inappropriate to mention your feelings? I think our society has found that business proceeds best if we don't mention them and pretend we're not feeling them, but I could envision a culture along the lines of Radical Honesty where just bringing up how you feel isn't wrong.<p>So, keep the issues separate and treat each appropriately. Implying women aren't able to do tech work? Absolutely wrong. Stop it. Indicating that a woman is attractive? Realize it's inappropriate because of how our society determined we should interact at work, not because it's inherently immoral, but still don't do it because it might make her feel uncomfortable.

I’m a bit loath to add to the already long discussion, and most of what I might address has already been thoroughly hashed out. However, as a bisexual male, perhaps I have a different perspective than most people here.<p>Fact is, I’ve experienced sexual harassment <i>just as much</i> from women as from men. Who does it, in a given situation, depends only on who’s in power. In the male-dominated tech industry, that means men. But most people like to make sexual comments and advances sometimes, when we feel we can. And, unfortunately, that often make others feel rightly uncomfortable.<p>It’s a sad paradox—one of the best ways to make the industry less hostile to women is to attract more women, to even the power balance. But women aren’t attracted to the industry because it’s so hostile in the first place.

Outside of IT, nobody ever comments on low cut dresses?<p>I am glad I don't have to deal with things like the ones mentioned in the article, just wanted to chime in and say that most programming jobs suck anyway. So it seems possible to me that the expression of the suckiness apparently took on some sexist form, that is not to say that the male colleagues don't suffer through crap in the same job. It is definitely possible for male people to be in crappy jobs and having to look for something better.<p>So is the corollary of the article that all possible jobs for female programmers suck?

@kcunning - How do you contrast your desire to have a perfectly professional relationship with everyone you work with vs a desire to enjoy an office environment where you can joke around and have fun?<p>While I understand your answer may well be, "Leave the jokes at home, Mr. Colbert. I'm here to code and make a paycheck." I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humorous interactions.<p>While there are always those who don't know how to avoid crossing the lines of appropriateness; do you feel that most of your coworkers are doing so?

<i>"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" ... Go to HR and get stuck with his work when they move or can him?</i><p>The thing is, we live in a legal environment where she probably <i>could</i> go to HR and get him moved or fired for saying this. And yet, some men are still sexist jerks to women in the workplace. This suggests that all the blog-posting and HN-comment-hand-wringing in the world won't make a bit of difference.<p>Don't lighten up—accept. When being able to fire a guy for commenting on a woman's dress doesn't even do the job, no amount of complaining will stop the behavior you deplore.<p>N.B. I expect this comment to be unpopular, which underscores my point. We (a) live in an environment where an essay like the OP gets upvoted and elicits sympathy from a bunch of mostly technical guys, (b) where women endure sexist comments from a bunch of mostly technical guys, and (c) a comment noting the contradiction inherent in (a) and (b) gets downvoted by a bunch of mostly technical guys. The problem is basically unfixable, at least by the suggested means; shooting the messenger won't help.

I consider the phrase "lighten up" patronizing and would avoid it altogether. I was once told to "lighten up" by an interviewer at a bank and immediately knew that I did not want to work there. It's insulting to suggest that a person ought to have feelings other than the ones they have. In my view, feelings (not behavior) are generally involuntary, largely beyond conscious control and lie outside the moral sphere.<p>I'm in academia, where the use-mention distinction isn't recognized where sexual innuendo is concerned. To be on the safe side, I take the attitude that even non-interacting, space-like separated particles at opposite ends of the universe could be accused of sexually harassing each other--and probably are.

It appears that virtually all comments expressing even mild criticism of the OP are being downvoted with a vengeance. <i>Groupthink</i> is alive and well here on HN. If you want to know what a member of the Thought Police looks like, find a mirror.

The guy sees the "one joke." He doesn't see that to <i>her</i> it's the billionth-and-one "joke."<p>Bukowski put it best: "The Shoelace" <a href="http://allisonlanda.blogspot.com/2009/02/bukowski-shoelace.html" rel="nofollow">http://allisonlanda.blogspot.com/2009/02/bukowski-shoelace.h...</a><p>Attention my fellow men: Just STFU unless you are reading stupid jokes from a bad sitcom script before a camera for TV.

Hang in there. The norms are always transitioning, so someone is always getting "the shaft" (hopefully that won't come across as sexist :) And unfortunately, when you can't change everyone's "natural" behavior, the next healthiest choice is to grow thicker skin.<p>EDIT&#62;&#62; I'm not saying that it's ok she's treated like this, but you can't change everyones behavior. It takes lifetimes. In the meantime, if you want to have a healthy mind and continue to be around that kind of behavior, you have to grow a thicker skin.

To be fair though, I've worked in places that were 70/80% female before and I was usually the first person they asked when they needed something heavy moved.<p>Perhaps it's just that many guys are so disorganized that it really makes sense for the woman in the group to take notes etc.

I just want to say a sincere thank you for writing this. I hope the whole community will read this with an open mind and understand how important it is to be conscious of these subtleties.

I agree this is a problem. But it's not one-sided.<p>I work (part time, not IT) in an environment where it's perfectly OK to generalize and joke about how men are assholes or idiots. I'm no writer, and I'm not about to attempt writing a post about the situation. I've been around enough that I can shrug it off at the end of the day, but in the moment it's beyond annoying and approaching degrading.

Do you think reaching some critical mass of female developers (say 20%) will help prevent the problem? Perhaps an industry goal of reaching 20% female developers would be worthwhile (who would set such a goal?)<p>These problems also exist in the boardroom and some have pointed out that it takes 3 women at the table in order for the rest of the room to treat them fairly. If it's just one, she's sidelined. If it's two, then they're seen as just teaming up with each other, but three makes them legitimate in the eyes of the rest of the group. Perhaps larger groups of developers can make sure to have at least 3 women on the team to help eliminate issues.

My £0.02: having worked in a few teams in the UK, France and Sweden over the course of the last decade, I'd say this is a cultural effect that can be won over locally by a certain company or social group, but would require a coordinated and concerted effort on behalf of men and women to stamp this kind of stealth-bullying out of social acceptability. I fully support the men who will help call out this kind of behaviour, and am also fully satisfied that this issue has front-paged HN for as long as it has.<p>From my own experience of work, cultural norms and popular issues, although only the smallest of samples, I'd say that (younger) Swedes have a much better handle on the balance of respect and gender roles than their peers in FR or the UK (England, specifically). Even the most subtle attempt at sexism is picked up on to a degree where it is unacceptable to at least publicly chance a remark of this kind in the workplace or in the media. Why this is I can only guess.<p>Prevalent (older) attitudes may account for the continued pay discrepancy between men and women and all that this reflects, but I'd say the Swedes have a very much less subtly-offensive 'working atmosphere' than those I've been part of elsewhere.<p>Also troubling is the question of 'women/babies/employment', but that's a whole other can of worms; just as a parting shot - men also leave poorly managed jobs when something better in life is offered to them, at least you get up to 9 months warning with women.

It's all down to ignorance really isn't it. Isolated incidents by themselves aren't really a big deal. Idiots are everywhere. Sometimes people just don't think before speaking.<p>Sometimes the odd jibe is actually amusing. Of course when the jibe has been heard a hundred times before it never is.<p>I have a stutter and the amount of crap I have had over the years is rediculous. It isn't people taking the piss, I am used to that. Its people being 'kind'. People assuming I cannot do something or wouldn't want to do something on account of my speech. People being 'protective' or finishing sentences...<p>The outride rudeness of people is easy to confront and challenge. It is the subtle stuff which is very difficult to deal with. Often people genuinely do not understand that they have done something wrong. They were just asking someone to take notes and you have become the defacto note taker... whats wrong with that?<p>I have always thought the best thing to do is stand your ground but if you do that every time you get a reputation of being a stickler and being less approachable. The trouble is finding the right balance between letting the odd thing slide without just leaving yourself open to taking crap.<p>I feel for Katie and think it is a shame that she has been effectively forced out doing she something she enjoys by the ignorance of others.

I can't stand it when people use the "Lighten up" line.<p>What it really means is that they can't empathise.<p>For <i>them</i> it's no big deal... so therefore, as far as they see it, it <i>is</i> no big deal.<p>.<p>If someone truly thinks another person is taking something too seriously, and really feels that something should be said about it, then the non-patronising thing to do would be to try and explain it to the other person.

Katie, don't leave the field -- just find the right group to work with. It's the company you keep.<p>Don't let everyone else dictate your life.

I'm a woman, this happens to me (not very often but that might be because I've worked in this industry only for two years) and whenever it does, I just say something horribly cold.<p>One day I had a pretty watch on, and a male coworker said "That's such a come-hither watch". He was one of the most intelligent people I'd met, and it was painful to hear that come from him. I made an exception and tried to tell him that one might wear something pretty simply because they <i>liked</i> wearing it but I don't believe I got my point across.<p>I don't think it's a reason to quit though. Everyone suffers from several disadvantages that others might not know about. For example, the guy above once complained that some american universities (like purdue university) prefer women candidates to improve their sex ratio, and that it's unfair.<p>I don't want to tell you to stoically put up with this problem, but that's what I try to do.

Talking of sexism.<p>Dear Y-combinator community, you have been caught red-handed @ 17:50 in this video at Startup School <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9m9vPAlb_0&#38;t=17m50s" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9m9vPAlb_0&#38;t=17m50s</a><p>Would you laugh if it were a male speaking? I kind of wish people would, then men might know the feeling of what it's like. Can you imagine if this happened to you?<p>This isn't PG's fault. It's the idiots in the audience. You can have a high-IQ, make brilliant stuff and still be a sexist asshole.<p>I'm a male, and I hate this stuff, because my it's my friends that are the ones that are affected by this behaviour.

While subtle discrimination is really bad, how does she get from low cut dress to slut? That's surely something she came up with herself and nothing like that the guy intended. The guy certainly doesn't want her to wrap herself up in sweaters, why does she feel like that's how she should respond?<p>I feel like there's a huge gulf between second and third wave feminists. Modern ones would find the above comment empowering, you only react in this way if you've been brought up in a society and culture that demeans female sexuality and teaches you that low cut dresses implies slutiness and so on.

I can't up this enough. My wife is a Java dev (I am a .Net dev), and I hear about the crap she has to endure almost weekly. It truly makes me want to walk into her client site and smack some faces. It is so hard to believe that this can be so common, especially since the field is made up mostly of younger "enlightened and tolerant" guys. This speaks so badly for our field (and society in general). (Now we are both in the early stages of "age-ism", but hey, we can fight that with talent, right?!?)

When I managed my team, I bought gallons of beers for everyone. With my own money, and handing the beers myself to my peers (In this example I'm using beer-time as substitute for potluck).<p>Of course I did ask for reimbursement through the company and the company did approve, but that's not the point.<p>The act of doing potluck is supposed to raise morale. Whoever manager in charge should organize the potluck him/herself for maximum boost of morale. Telling others to do potluck is so lame. Telling someone else to take note is equally lame.

What happened to the "OH HAI SEXISM" thread, previously at (<a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3739913" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3739913</a>)?

Will Schumpter win out here?<p>Presumably in a perfect labour market competant women will leave companies like this and go work for the non sexist competition<p>I believe that will be true for companies that do not embrace for example lean product discovery or software as transformative. But I just don't think the labour Market is really perfect enough to make this kind of difference<p>but even so, start looking at jobsites. You won't change them, and if you leave for good reasons, good employers will understand.

If you walk around alone in an unsafe neighborhood at night, you're asking for trouble. If you don't have a choice but to be in an unsafe neighborhood, hunker down and get to a point in your life when you can afford a safe neighborhood.<p>In the programming world, this translates to : become a great programmer, and you will find yourself in a great programming environment (birds of a feather...). If you really love programming, you will get to that point eventually.<p>Great programmers love programming, and love learning from other great programmers even more. That's why they'll never offend another great programmer or risk it all by indulging in bad behavior. (You can actually substitute "great programmer" here with "great any-profession". There might be exceptions, but in 15 years of programming, I haven't met any.)<p>When you don't have these types of programmers around you, whats left is the (sub-)average programmer, and the concomitant sexist environment.<p>Also, by wearing a low-cut blouse to a professional environment, you drive away those people who actually contribute to a good environment, leaving behind those that don't.<p>Biologically, men's brains light up when they see a woman's cleavage. The people who value you as a programmer will avoid you, because they recognize what's going on in their heads, avoid the distraction, and the risk of offending you. Heck, some of them might not even look in your direction. My advice is the same one I give my daughters: wear a scarf - it prevents the over-heating problem you mentioned. Its the same reason I wear boxers, rather than walk around in shorts.<p>You don't need to lighten up, just hunker down.

I have to wonder if I'm just hanging out in the wrong circles or working at the wrong companies, because I've never seen anything even approaching some of the appalling examples in the article. Am I in the minority here? Note that I'm not denying that it happens; I've just never seen it personally.<p>Disclaimer: I work for a midwestern branch of a major company based in California, and I've never worked in any of the major tech hubs.

There's a real problem here that comes down to the status-quo of the office. Imagine your office of 100 people is 50% male/female, and a nice sampling of racial groups, sexualities and ages (I've had the fortune to work in such a place). What happens is that there is sufficient diversity <i>and</i> commonality between enough people of their varying interests, looks and views, that you find it completely unnecessary to make comments about what someone is wearing, or whether their gender deems them capable. I say again, the problem with the high-tech industry is there is simply not enough diversity. Now we can't fix this today or tomorrow, maybe not in 10 years, but you can certainly imagine that it's there. With any comment, consider what is appropriate given a hypothetical situation where there is a good balance of whatever-stereotype-you-are-addressing and go from there.

So hey HN, if we really are gonna go on a crusade against objectification and gender roles, why does it almost always have to be about women playing victim?<p>Any guy could whip up blog posts about daily situations where specific (not necessarily superior) roles are imposed upon them by society simply because they are men.<p>I get told all the time by the ladies (even if jokingly) that I should put on some weight so I am more of a man.<p>I get asked all the time and it is assumed of me even more times to carry the bags because I am the man in the situation.<p>Aren't there centuries old idea about being a "gentleman"? Where you are expected to hold the door for the woman, buy her stuff etc.<p>Aren't there studies that men are much less likely to report rape than women? Shouldn't that be much more appalling to all than some of the pettier examples posted on HN recently?

I like to joke around and have a good time while doing serious work. This isnt some profound optimization technique, just something that makes my day happier and usually that of those around me. However, my general rule of thumb is to never directly engage a female at the workplace outside of a purely professional, subdued necessity. They are too sensitive. While I know I have good intentions and care for their happiness, not everyone has the same level of empathy. So I simply avoid getting grouped into the fratboy category even when I really do want them to just lighten up a bit. I personally find blanket invitations to after-work drinks to be a better environment to get more friendly with the ladies on the team, most will drop their shields a few notches.

I think both behaviors provide continuation to the problem. On one side, the people who is actually sexist, or racist, or just believe in stereotypes. In the another, the people who also believes that the rest of the people are biased towards their sex, skin color or condition. Ignoring information that is not interesting or useful for us is the best tool we have to not be hurt by other people so easily, get stronger and prepared to survive in an unfair society and preserve freedom of speech. Nobody wants to be negatively discriminated, but does somebody think positive discrimination is the solution? I believe is the same social problem after all.

You know, I come to HN mostly for the enlightened commentary on the news articles that are posted. Yet anytime something related to sexism in the industry comes up, I am stunned at some of the comments.<p>Yes. It is hard being a woman in the industry. It is hard being a woman in general. But the worst part is seeing how many men think we act like an entirely different species, and its disheartening. Sometimes, comments speak of women as if we don't even read this site.<p>Obviously there are many cultural and sociological norms at play here, but I expect more from this community. I guess thats my fault.

&#62; All I did was make a joke about you needing to be in the kitchen!<p>I'm a fellow programmer, and a guy (if it matters), but whenever I hear this exact comment (luckily for me I didn't hear it from any of my present or past co-workers, only distant acquaintances) I almost literally start to boil. Are some of us men really, I mean really that stupid?!<p>Again, luckily for me most of my career as a programmer has been spent in small non-software specific firms (5 to 20 people) where the female to male ratio was in most cases higher than 50%, so that I didn't have to hear this misogynistic and stupid crap.

I'm a bit late to the party here but isn't she being sexist too?<p>For example, with the notes issue - how does she know that she is being chosen because she's female. She probably doesn't. She's probably assuming that's the reason, because men are misogynist pigs, right?<p>It's one of those situations where we can't tell at all. The <i>mens rea</i>, if there is one, is hidden.<p>Why doesn't she assume that she takes the best notes or that the boss thinks that because of her CV [made up example:] having documentation experience or the best English pass scores of the group that she'll be the best note taker.

Reading through the article and the comments here it seems to me that there is a tremendous unresolved tension. There seems to be an idea that we just 'fix the sexism' and that's that. However, stepping back and asking harder questions makes me think the problems are fundamental to highly developed capitalist economies. Before you mod me down, at least read the rest of what I have to say.<p>Everything we do-- what we wear, how we walk, the way we talk, sends subtle social signals, and these impact all areas of life. Two fundamental (and increasingly entwined) areas of life are sexuality (without which our race dies out) and economic (without which, each of us dies individually). These are tremendously entertwined, with over half of Americans having dated co-workers (see: <a href="http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2012/02/10/the-state-of-the-office-romance-2012/" rel="nofollow">http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2012/02/10/the-state-...</a>).<p>So it seems to me that, particularly single, women navigating the modern workplace are trying to navigate two fundamentally conflicting desires. The first is to be professional and not be open to the problem of being offered promotions for sexual favors, or retaliation for declining such offers, and the second is to find romance, companionship, love, etc. The fact that workplace romances are so common cannot be discounted in this area.<p>And so you have two key questions:<p>1) How do you define appropriate boundaries? This is a hellishly difficult problem in the context of the workplace.<p>2) If boundaries aren't bright but involve a lot of give and take, then doesn't that fundamentally mean that there will be a lot of behavior that will fall outside of that which is desirable?<p>I honestly don't see how you solve that problem.<p>On the gender role issue, I am a firm believer that one is generally better off making such tasks as taking notes or arranging potlucks things which are volunteer, and then if that fails, rotated, eliminating those who can't do it reasonably well.<p>But beyond that........ As long as so much of our social spheres surround work, and that's where a lot of opportunity for dating (both for men and women) lies, I just don't buy that you can wish away unwanted attention.

"When asked, most men will gallantly express their admiration for women in general and profess a profuse love for their mates in particular. Despite these touching personal testimonials, society is rife with misogyny and patriarchy. A cursory glance at the current newspapers or television news reveals a global society in which the majority of men disdain women. While some cultures are more egalitarian than others, men's actions suggest that they believe firmly in their superiority over women.<p>-Leonard Schlain (Sex, Time, and Power)

What a trainwreck of a comments section.<p>If your immediate knee-jerk response is to try to point out why it's her fault without reflecting on her points, you're part of the problem.

I hope one day we can all work in environments that are completely non-hostile. Some jobs seem to be a lot more rough than others, in my experience. I've never had to deal with sexism or prejudice but i've had my share of crap to take from coworkers. I've also worked with highly professional, straight-laced people who know not to be asshats and treat people fairly.<p>I really hope you don't stop doing what you love because of where you work.

I am very glad this subject is being discussed here. The subtle sexism in the tech industry has always been disturbing to me as a man and I can only imagine how women must feel about it. Sexism in our industry is not only offensive it is counterproductive. It saddens me to think of the great female innovators that may be turned off from entering the industry because it is seen as unwelcoming to them.

"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"<p>Anyone says that at my workplace and they will be shown the door in less than 120 seconds.

It's bizarre, I'm sure if I made any of those comments to women at university I would quickly become pretty unpopular.<p>So is this just a problem of the previous generation or a problem specific to the workplace?<p>I really do <i>feel</i> for the author, I can't imagine how awful it must be to put up with that kind of thing everyday.

My wife is a programmer. I hear you!

Is anyone else bothered by the fact that of the 752 comments on this thread at the moment probably &#62;700 were written by men? Isn't it potentially sexist in and of itself to have a large discussion about this subject exclusively between men?

in no way a contradiction of anything, or a statement of what is <i>correct</i> in the workplace just an observation on human relations as it relates to this topic:<p>A.) Women would not like to be treated by men as men treat other men in the workplace. You might think so, but I think you'd find it is also inappropriate, just in different ways.<p>B.) Men would not like to be treated as women often treat other women in the workplace. You might think so, but I think you'd find it is also inappropriate, just in different ways.<p>which leads me to:<p>C.) It is difficult for either gender to rigorously define appropriate asexual behavior towards one another, as their behavior is (generally) genuinely sex-aware.

I just can't relate to this post. I can't say you are inventing things, but maybe change companies a little, discover something different, don't just complain. As consultant I see quite a lot of different companies and believe I have good idea what can be seen.<p>I am annoyed by childish behavior of my colleagues, this has nothing to do with me being able to handle it, just I would like to work somewhere where I don't have to deal with it all the time. Also, some female colleagues left field because constant learning was just too much for them and they wanted someplace where they don't have to invest so much of them. Totally reasonable.<p>Again, can't relate to what you are describing and your description is in no way characteristic for IT, it might be corporate lack of culture in your workplace.

Damn, I'm glad I don't have to work with such a prickly person. Men have to deal with minor sleights and annoyances, too. That's why they tell you to "lighten up". Because you're not special.

<i>"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"</i><p>-&#62; "Oop, looks like Bob's wearing the same thing as yesterday."<p>-&#62; "Kinda desperate there, eh?"

&#62; I once had a boss who wanted to turn me into a personal assistant so badly, it ended up in a meeting with HR (he, as white and male, should be allowed to rein in the only female on the team!).<p>Actually, he should. It has nothing to do with his sex and race though--it has to do with him being THE BOSS.

You just made me speachless. One of the best comments I ever read on that issue (or any other resembling it)!

Honestly speaking I am surprised by the quantity of comments, especially the ones on sexism and similar stuff (how to dress, what to cook, etc). Usually, this is an indicator of one big underlying problem, therefore I assume that it is a problem in the US.<p>At least, this is how the author positions the situation and her individual case.<p>But..... in reality, at least based on what I observed in the multinational companies, where I worked, such behavior usually surfaces in three cases.<p>(1) The person does not understand how organizational dynamics and people/power play works, i.e. does not know the rules of the game.<p>(2) The person is not a good performer, or at least this is how colleagues perceive her or (for god sake) him.<p>(3) The corporate environment and culture OR the boss are negative - in this case most employees are treated like that.<p>Based on my personal experience:-<p>In case of (3) the best advice is to run - find another company that would value this particular individual strengths. There are plenty of companies out there. The life is not worth it to spend it on converting jerks to mother Theresa.<p>In case of (2) the best advice is to "make yourself so good, that they can't ignore you" [I do not recall that exact wording]. I seriously doubt that a valuable employee [i.e. she/he is the only one who can fix things with positive/negative impact on P&#38;L] would be mistreated. In case she would be, than probably this is the case (3) - the company/boss does not understand the employee's value ---&#62; same advice as above - run. I recall two cases - female HR assistant and male Director of Strategy. The former was just dumb, and the latter was bullshitting his way around. In both cases gender had nothing to do with the fact that both had nothing to bring to the table. So the consensus of high-producing crowd (both female and male) was unanimous.<p>Usually, if a person is an excellent performer, these things (negative comments, stupid microtasks, etc) just do not appear or do not stick.<p>In case of (1) the best advice is to find a mentor (gender not relevant), who could teach or coach on how to behave oneself in a group or organization, so called organizational behavior or simply politics. It is difficult to summarize it, but the goal is to learn how to diffuse negative behavior towards you with humor, words or actions immediately at the point of action in such a way that everybody present would think that the one who initiated negative behavior is a jerk (or dumb, or idiot, or an asshole) without you calling names.<p>For example a comment from colleague<p>&#60;"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"&#62;<p>can be rubuffed with<p>"Oop, John's got his socks smelling today! I know where I shall not be sitting" or smth similar with a big smile.<p>The simple view and approach is to perceive such people as programs with bugs. To resolve the bug you need to understand how the whole piece is working and what's inside. Therefore, you need to understand each individual, what's inside, what are the bugs and how to approach/address them. Each one is unique and shall be dealt with as such.<p>Another approach is to start with yourself - how you perceive yourself and own self-confidence.<p>I agree with OneBytePerGreen that the author shall "lighten up". I do not recall the exact term, but the author perceives that the external environment is what controls her behavior and outcomes. Such view does not faciliate personal growth, or any growth per se. The only way to change is to understand simple fact that behavior of others is defined by your own behavior and start with yourself, because that's the only one a human being can change.<p>On a side note I especially disagree with one of the comments: &#60;"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" Anyone says that at my workplace and they will be shown the door in less than 120 seconds.&#62;<p>Acting like that is keeping the real issue under the table and unresolved. The real issue is the person's view of the world and lack of knowledge and understanding of how things work in life. A good boss or co-worker would teach or coach the person how to to deal with that.<p>Apologies for my English and, possibly, tone. My first real post on NH, so I might have missed some 'untold' rules.

Have you ever worked in an office with all women? I did and the sexism and comments are worse because they know they can get away with it.<p>Our world has become too politically correct. At one of my jobs, they brought all of the developers into a room and said that "something somebody said was offensive and we needed to watch our language".<p>We're adults, not kids at school..but it sure doesn't feel like it because people seem to want to get another person fired if they are offended in any way. The result is that we can't be honest.

Well said.<p>I'm seriously considering leaving the field of software because I'm tired of working with 25 - 35 year old manchildren.

<i>As the woman, I've been the only person in the group asked to put together a pot luck (presumably, this work is beneath the males). I've been the only one asked to take notes in a meeting... even if I'm the one who's presenting (because my title really should be 'secretary who we let on the servers').</i><p>Not saying this is what's happening in these cases, but I've often seen this happen to women not because they're women, but because they create the situation by training people to rely on them to do these things. Women who will take on the tasks nobody else wants to do, who will always do whatever others leave undone, who offers to bring other people food when she goes out, etc. In the spirit of helpfulness or whatever.<p>This happens to men, too, but more women on the whole seem to be the "step in and get it done" type (for whatever reason). The kind you can rely on to bend over backwards to do something when asked, even if it's ridiculous. You see it in families and it's natural that people behave the same at work as they do at home, when it comes to <i>this</i> kind of behavior.<p>I'm not like this at all, though. Not at all. Nobody says "Oh, Amy will get it all done." And this never happens to me.

The problem with these posts is that we only hear the horror stories. We get a sensational picture of constant harassment from one unlucky person. Most of what was written here was outright harassment. In many places it would be seen as outright illegal for the company to allow this to continue.<p>I take issue with complaining about "subtle" sexism, however. Life is not fair for men either. In fact, unfairness is universal in life for reasons that are out of anybody's control. By pushing for unobtainable fairness, you are training people to expect fairness, which is disabling. Boys are attacked by other boys in school. You are constantly tested by other males for signs of fear. Big deal. It toughens you up for later life. Gender "equality" in many ways has become just another production output to be maximised without regard to secondary costs.

Attack sexism, not humour! Please stop killing humour

Overly Sensitive.

To every person going through a similar situation, I apologize on behalf of Men, and I guarantee you not all of us are like such.

If you turn innocent (or even well-intentioned) comments into an HR case, I'm guessing your co-workers are not sad to see you gone.

How about .. embrace your femininity. The bigger the chip on our shoulder about being a chick in the workplace, the more we're told to "lighten up."<p>Plan the potluck - isn't it fun to plan things? Take the notes - aren't you super organized and taking notes anyway? If given a demeaning comment - sincerely and gracefully refute it the first time, replacing it with a comment about the quality of your work. And, seriously, stop wearing revealing clothes to work - have some respect and save that for your spouse!<p>This is not to diminish therealkatie's complaints, nor to say that every woman actually enjoys baking cookies, planning potlucks, or taking notes. I do, though, and I've never had a problem with respect.

Dear Katie,<p>Welcome to business, now grow up. I agree that the "lighten up" strategy is tiresome and ineffective. I don't know you, but it seems you need to grow some thicker skin and learn to hit back.<p>Do you think Meg Whitman, Carly Fiorna, or Arianna Huffington take shit from people? Hello no! It is called assertiveness and standing your ground.<p>Grow up, Katie. The real world has all kinds of people. People who grew up believing in gender roles. People who grew up thinking homosexuality is bad. People who grew up with no discipline from hippie parents. Putting all those personalities in the room can be chaotic. There are two lessons you need to learn:<p>1. assert yourself, and do it in a way that the offending party understands. HR and all these laws are crutches for solving the actual problems.<p>2. stop worrying about what others think about you.

I'm willing to bet that this type of behavior is a lot less likely in a start up. Something about assholes and corporate jobs. I'd like to think nothing like that would ever happen where I work. Does any women on hear have any first hand experience?<p>One thing that did bother me about the article though. She complained about being asked to cook, but on her about page it says she loves to cook and looks for any excuse. I'm sure she has a better idea of what her boss meant when he asked, but it makes me wonder if she has become oversensitive after so many bad experiences. I hope not.

At my work place we throw around homoerotic jokes and comments all the time and no one is offended. I guess it is only if you're comfortable enough with a group that you can ask them to do ridiculous things, kind of funny way. In rework it mentions that you should hire friends, sounds like that girl is the stranger wether it is because she is a girl or wether the men are disgusting pigs - whatever the case.<p>She can adapt the group become a leader, I've seen it happen with girls or she can cry about being an abused minority. Such is a difference between strong and weak people. Granted we don't come to work to be leaders some of us enjoy just writing code and doodling up layouts and logos in photoshop. In this case a compromise should be found - offsite work on the project. From a coffee shop or otherwise. You know there are other companies to work with as well, maybe with better female/male ratio.<p>In the end this is a battle of sexes, the chemistry is wrong - men want to have sex with women and when you add in the mix work and being close, you can either make so that you are not attractive to any of the male members of the work force or do something else. Asking men not to be men is just as cruel as asking a woman to be a man. One way to augment this issue is to hire a ton of girls to work in the team to maybe dilute the male collective. But in every case this may lead to different and unpredictable results. You can't just board a pirate ship and expect sailors to behave all gentlemanly at once - maybe pirate ship full of amazons? at any rate this is hugely complicated because people are. Complaining about it won't get you anywhere, acting does.<p>Most of us want to see more females in the force. Most of the time nerds I know work harder, because they want to strut their awesome code and how well it works before female member of the team.