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Client harassed by The Type founders for using Proxima Nova font on website

107 pointsby mcenedellaover 1 year ago

20 comments

KronisLVover 1 year ago
Call me a bit utilitarian or risk averse, but to me it seems that the free fonts out there cover basically all of the use cases that I could have. Surely there are enough fonts like that to fit most of the designs that you could conceivably come up with?<p>Or do people really look at a font that might cost thousands of USD to use, like Proxima Nova (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.marksimonson.com&#x2F;fonts&#x2F;view&#x2F;proxima-nova" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.marksimonson.com&#x2F;fonts&#x2F;view&#x2F;proxima-nova</a>) and go: &quot;Yes, this is exactly what fits my creative vision and nothing less will do!&quot;<p>Not that it wouldn&#x27;t be worth the price tag for some, but to me that feels like something that only large enterprises for which that&#x27;s a rounding error might want to do.
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eliover 1 year ago
We switched away from this font because <i>even though we had a lifetime multi-site commercial license</i> from the previous owner of the font, we were constantly getting legal threats from the current owners The Type Founders. Like several times a year we had to put together paperwork to show we could legally use it. I feel like you should have to do some minimum amount of research before demanding a cash settlement from someone.
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multiplegeorgesover 1 year ago
The answer seems pretty straightforward. The web design firm has a license *for their own commercial use*, they do not have a license they can extend their *clients&#x27; ongoing commercial use.*<p>You can design a site for your client using Proxima Nova, but your client, as a commercial entity, needs their own license to continue using it in the market as they gain value from its use.<p>Edit:<p>Found this in the Adobe Font Licensing FAQ (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;helpx.adobe.com&#x2F;fonts&#x2F;using&#x2F;font-licensing.html#act-own" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;helpx.adobe.com&#x2F;fonts&#x2F;using&#x2F;font-licensing.html#act-...</a>), issue settled:<p>&gt; Does my client need their own font license to use the designs?<p>&gt; No, not if you are creating graphics or documents that have rasterized or properly embedded font data, such as a PDF, JPEG, or PNG.<p>&gt; However, if your client needs to have the font installed to edit your design, they will need their own license, either through a Creative Cloud subscription or as a desktop license purchase.<p>This is clearly a case of the second option.
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parkerswebover 1 year ago
We were typekit users before it was acquired by Adobe. Creating font kits on behalf of clients for websites that you host was standard practice.<p>It was only last year that I discovered that Adobe has changed the license terms so that it’s no longer permitted. At the same time you can also no longer take out a subscription solely to Adobe fonts - it’s only available as part of a Creative Cloud subscription.<p>So in order to comply with license terms a client has to take out a subscription for an Adobe product e.g Photoshop in order to legally use a font on their website.<p>Any wonder why most designers despaired on hearing of the Figma purchase?
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userbinatorover 1 year ago
Interesting fact: at least in the US, font files themselves can be copyrighted, and thus the exact coordinates of each glyph, but the general shape cannot. You can rasterise a font, trace the result, and turn that back into a vector font file, and change the copyright that way. Hence why there are so many free alternatives of otherwise restrictively licensed fonts, that look identical.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Intellectual_property_protection_of_typefaces" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Intellectual_property_protecti...</a>
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propter_hocover 1 year ago
I don&#x27;t get the outrage here.<p>Basically, this Web design company used a proprietary font to make a website for a client, that they then included as a self-hosted font file for the website that they deployed. They only had access to this font through their Creative Cloud SaaS license, which almost certainly doesn&#x27;t let them take the proprietary IP they have access to and resell it in a package to anyone that pays them.<p>I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s unreasonable of the owner of the IP to ensure that their IP doesn&#x27;t effectively become freeware just because they signed a bulk license with Adobe. It would be like, because you licensed your song to Spotify for a per-play fee, that would mean anyone can rip it from Spotify and use it in an ad without a license?<p>It also doesn&#x27;t seem onerous for the web designers to ask their clients to buy a copy of the font that they specified. I&#x27;ve had to do that for websites before.
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bondarchukover 1 year ago
Ah, there we have it (a few comments down):<p>&gt;<i>Simonson designed Proxima Nova, his fonts now owned by The Type Founders, a private equity-backed entity.</i>
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sigzeroover 1 year ago
Reading the Adobe site for the font (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fonts.adobe.com&#x2F;fonts&#x2F;proxima-nova#details-section+proxima-nova-thin" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fonts.adobe.com&#x2F;fonts&#x2F;proxima-nova#details-section+p...</a>) it says:<p><pre><code> The full Adobe Fonts library is cleared for both personal and commercial use. </code></pre> but farther down it says :<p><pre><code> to purchase additional licensing and services, including: Self Hosting </code></pre> Sooo which is it? I can see how that would be confusing.
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mattzitoover 1 year ago
Font&#x2F;typeface licensing and IP is a nightmare. Typefaces cannot be copyrighted, but fonts can. As a practical matter, this means that representations of typefaces in rendered documents can be redistributed freely - but the font file can be copyrighted, which means that anything that loads the font file (e.g. your website) has to have a license to use the font.<p>So - if this font was being used in just a few places, they could easily convert that text to images and be fully compliant (though obviously hacky). However, since they&#x27;re loading it as a web font, now they have to pay.<p>It gets weirder when you talk about productivity software - lots of companies believe that they &quot;own&quot; their fonts, and hence can use them in their documents with impunity. In reality, they likely have an unlimited organization usage license, which allows them to install the font files on every computer in the organization, but not to distribute them outside of their organization. Have a design agency that you hire to build slide decks for the sales team? They need to buy a license to use that font (or you buy it for them).<p>This also creates a reason to distribute documents in rendered form - wonder why that marketing deck got emailed to you from a vendor as a PDF instead of the PPT? If it uses a licensed font, you probably don&#x27;t have a license and consequently won&#x27;t have the font file installed on your computer, which causes the document to fall back to an alternate font (with mixed results)<p>This is often true even when the font was custom-designed for a particular company - if it&#x27;s a custom version of an existing font, the foundry typically creates a one off license for that customer.<p>This is also why Google Docs and Slides can&#x27;t support custom fonts - in their model, the fonts are delivered over the browser, so there&#x27;s no way to limit distribution of documents with those fonts to remain in compliance with the foundry licensing. (Disclosure: I&#x27;m a googler, I worked on google slides years ago, got a ton of requests for custom fonts, out of 30+ companies that asked for this, only two owned their fonts in such a way that they could actually be distributed without limits).
stilley2over 1 year ago
I received a similar email from Type Founders despite the fact that my website does not provide or even specify a specific font to use (besides things like size and sand serif). I got the impression it was either a shakedown or a very broadly aimed and poorly executed attempt to recovering licensing fees.
adeel_siddiquiover 1 year ago
Adobe provides adding fonts from their CDN and they are hosting Proxima Nova: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fonts.adobe.com&#x2F;search?query=Proxima%2Bnova" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fonts.adobe.com&#x2F;search?query=Proxima%2Bnova</a>. Looks like OP is using it from Adobe&#x27;s CDN and now their client is being chased by the owner of the font. Wonder if Adobe is not paying (any&#x2F;appropriate) licensing fees to the owner of the font?
tyingqover 1 year ago
I hadn&#x27;t looked at the business model for fonts for a while. Looking at <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;store.typenetwork.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;store.typenetwork.com&#x2F;</a> , each style of Proxima Nova (regular, bold, italic, etc) is priced à la carte, and for web use you can&#x27;t really buy it, you rent it. Up to $1,015.00&#x2F;year if you have 2.5M views&#x2F;month.<p>Edit: Shared not because it&#x27;s particularly relevant for the legal aspects, just for some relative idea of what it would cost if you did pay for a license from the party that&#x27;s unhappy.
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adolphover 1 year ago
Didn&#x27;t we already do this with desktop software and stock images ages ago? Speculatively a comment on the Adobe says that The Type Founders is private equity backed. That makes sense if they are trying to capture revenue that has been forgone out of license management difficulties. Once they prove the legalities and revenue stream, sell it to Adobe or IPO.<p>Nobody likes to hear it, but I think there is an opportunity for blockchain here.<p><i>Like any piece of software, fonts are licensed for specific uses. The kind of license you need is determined by how you will be using the fonts and what you will be using them to create.</i> [...]<p><i>A web license lets you serve the fonts on a website and use them as live, dynamic text via HTML and @font-face CSS. The cost is determined by the specific fonts licensed, the approximate number of monthly page views the websites using the fonts receive, and the length of the license in years.</i><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.marksimonson.com&#x2F;info&#x2F;purchasing" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.marksimonson.com&#x2F;info&#x2F;purchasing</a>
Mystery-Machineover 1 year ago
I love Adobe. They just keep f*king people over and over again and people still use their products. This is like Microsoft a few decades ago. The only Adobe product that I still use is Figma. Everything else I refuse to use when being asked to.
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2Gkashmiriover 1 year ago
i dream that an overworked, tired patent&#x2F;copyright troll sends me a threatening legal notice for using something stupid like fonts or a a css class or a color hue ala pantone colors in a website of mine which threatens me with financial ruin by implicating me using DMCA or some american legislation..... i just want to experience this.<p>i don&#x27;t have a legal notice fetish if that is what you are thinking, i just... want to see a stupid letter threatening me which i can laugh off.<p>remember TBP people had a public page many many years ago which had DMCA notices and their replies. That.....
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zxcvbnmover 1 year ago
Uhm so why not not-use that font, and switch to another mainstream one? Who cares, it&#x27;s just a font? Or is it heresy to ask this?
RobotToasterover 1 year ago
It&#x27;s not even a particularly nice font, it looks rather corporate memphis.
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fortran77over 1 year ago
Adobe has really slipped far. They used to be a wonderful company.
drcongoover 1 year ago
Adobe gonna Adobe.
thetypefoundersover 1 year ago
Hello from The Type Founders!<p>We are posting our message that we shared on the Adobe forum here, too, to ensure anyone with questions or concerns can see it.<p>We wanted to take this opportunity to offer our thoughts here. The Type Founders (or TTF) launched in 2021 and our mission is to develop an extensive library of high-quality, distinctive, and usable typefaces. We are a small team of individuals who love all things typographic and have dedicated our careers to advancing the interests of type designers and all users of type. Underneath the TTF umbrella are 27 type foundry brands and a library of 7,000+ fonts, many of which are available on Adobe Fonts. The vast majority of type designers behind these foundries remain actively involved, drawing and publishing new fonts. As custodians of these legacies and the craft, it is our business to work with those designers to help their typefaces flourish. One aspect of that is ensuring that their work is properly licensed.<p>The discipline of type design is uniquely positioned at the intersection of art, history, culture, and engineering. As new technologies and content platforms take hold — such as dynamic websites, mobile apps, and streaming platforms — font software and licensing have evolved from the days of buying a case of wood type to receiving a CD with a couple hundred fonts to downloading files onto your computer or accessing them directly from the cloud. This inevitably leads to some confusion about what is and is not covered by certain licenses, especially as no common license exists in our industry — a topic we spend a great deal talking about at font conferences (yes, those are actually a thing!). With Adobe Fonts, Adobe has built an amazing service for Creative Cloud subscribers, and we are lucky to be one of their partners. The Adobe Fonts library has thousands of great typefaces for any project and the service is easy to use and seamlessly integrates into Adobe apps. The font license included is straightforward, but there are a few nuances, which likely explains the confusion and frustration on this thread and why our representatives may have reached out to you to verify licensing for one of our fonts. After this letter, we will address those points specifically.<p>Developing well-crafted typefaces requires years of training — including specialized design and technical skills — and often involves collaboration with other designers and engineers. We understand that receiving an email telling you that you are in the wrong or asking you to purchase a license for something you thought you already owned may be frustrating but unfortunately type designers are not fairly compensated for their work if their fonts are not properly licensed, including how fonts on Adobe Fonts are used.<p>As mentioned above, the TTF team cares deeply about type design and typography and are here to answer any questions you might have about Adobe Fonts, font licensing in general, or anything at all related to type. Don’t hesitate to reach out at any time: info@thetypefounders.com.<p>Thank you from the TTF team! — Aaron, Bram, Dan, Ivan, Jill, Marina, Paley, Richard, Sam, and Tiffany<p>= = = = = = = = =<p>To address some of the questions raised on the Adobe thread, any font on Adobe Fonts can be used for personal and commercial projects, with a few exceptions, as outlined in Adobe’s font licensing FAQ (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;helpx.adobe.com&#x2F;fonts&#x2F;using&#x2F;font-licensing.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;helpx.adobe.com&#x2F;fonts&#x2F;using&#x2F;font-licensing.html</a>). This includes using the fonts on websites as long as you follow Adobe’s instructions (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;helpx.adobe.com&#x2F;fonts&#x2F;using&#x2F;add-fonts-website.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;helpx.adobe.com&#x2F;fonts&#x2F;using&#x2F;add-fonts-website.html</a>). In practical terms, for web use via Adobe Fonts, this means:<p>1. You need to use the Adobe Fonts web font hosting service (or CDN) to serve the fonts to your website. 2. If you want to host the font files on your website or your client’s website, you would need to purchase a license that grants that right (generally called a “self-hosted” web license) and use the web font files provided by the licensor, which would be WOFF and WOFF2 files, not OTFs and TTFs, which are desktop file formats. 3. Any client or third party needs their own Adobe Fonts license via Creative Cloud to serve fonts to their website (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;helpx.adobe.com&#x2F;fonts&#x2F;using&#x2F;font-licensing.html#web-client" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;helpx.adobe.com&#x2F;fonts&#x2F;using&#x2F;font-licensing.html#web-...</a>) — or they can purchase a web license directly from the foundry or authorized reseller.<p>There are a couple of issues we wanted to clarify, too, related to @Bobby Henderson’s comments:<p>“Many businesses and organizations who hire web designers and developers to build web sites are not going to be doing the web hosting work themselves.” This is not accurate; millions of business websites self-host their web fonts and modern website building tools have made this much easier than in the past. If anyone has questions about self-hosting web fonts, please send us an email as we are happy to help!<p>2. “If my graphic design clients had to buy font files they don’t need simply because I used them in a design project they would be pretty upset.” The Adobe Fonts license — and virtually every other font license — allows you to create artwork or other assets on behalf of your client. As long as you only share the final graphics, your client would not need to purchase a font license. If your client needs to edit the graphics or otherwise use the fonts, they would need to have their own Creative Cloud subscription or purchase a license to use the font.
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