I have a feeling my own <i>"Why I Chose New Hampshire"</i> would not have the same traction on HN, though it would bear some similarity to this post. Maybe I should write it anyway.<p>I live in an 1840's house that I love. I walk seven minutes to main street (and work) every day. I live a mere hour from the mountains, the ocean, boston, minutes from country. I don't have any wants, I just like programming and reading and making things. I live a simple life, I like to think.<p>Yet I get an email from a recruiter once a week (or a little less often, some more personal invitation) who are thrilled to talk to me until the point that they find that I have no intention of leaving New Hampshire.<p>Willingness to uproot one's entire life and move (to Silicon Valley), it seems, is a foregone conclusion to them and I never cease to astonish my correspondents by not wanting to go there.<p>I don't begrudge them. But I don't understand why in the grand game of chess I would exchange 23 years of life for a single job.<p>(At last one correspondent signed, <i>"let me know if you ever decide to head west, young man :-)"</i>)
This is great, I left NYC for many of the same reasons the OP cites as wanting to move there. Really, I should write a post on "Why I'm choosing the Midwest"<p>NYC has so many women. Beautiful women. But if you're looking to have kids, settle down and move away to where your kid has his own lawn to play on, your odds drop close to zero. So many people date in NYC, so few commit for the rest of their lives. I was so naive when I moved there at 26, I thought I would be married within a year. All my friends had gotten married while still in college. NYC just ain't the place.<p>Lack of a commute? Yes, but add in the time to get everywhere else. That party in Brooklyn? An hour. Finding somewhere, anywhere, where buildings don't dot the horizon and you feel at peace? Try a few hours. Enjoy the subway construction my friend.<p>I will say that NYC kills when it comes to food. Its the best, unless you're trying to find a nice cheap bratwurst, then NYC sucks it up big time. But the Midwest makes up for it. I have a canoe, a giant deck bigger than my NYC apt with a grill on it and streets that get plowed. Midwest, I think you win.
I hope this doesn't spark off another round of NYC vs. SV arguments[1]- there is no empirically "right" answer. Both have strengths and weaknesses, and the choice is all about what you want as a person, and what you want for your startup.<p>Don't be fooled into thinking that SV will be the saviour of your dreams (the guy living out of his car comes to mind), but also don't think that NYC is an instant shortcut to making it big. I'm in New York and I wouldn't have it any other way. But I'm just one person.<p>[1] I think these arguments are always worse because of the time difference. As I write this, it's 10am here in NYC and the thread is 100% New Yorkers. In three hours time Californians will start logging in and be horrified at the overwhelmingly one-sided view, and start responding.
It's only Bay vs NYC? Why not stay in Austin? Every startup here is hiring. Why not Boston, Boulder, Seattle, or Portland? Not mentioning other cities seems shortsighted. Online startups can exist anywhere. If you're not interested in groupthink considering other cities seems very reasonable.<p>I also don't buy your SF commute argument. There are tons of startups in downtown SF. You don't have to live in the bay area and work in the valley. If I were to move out there I'd live and work in SF, I wouldn't even consider SV.
Don't forget about how expensive housing is in NYC. If you want to live in Manhattan and have ever lived anywhere else, to get an apartment that vaguely resembles what you consider an apartment, you're going to be paying $3000 a month. Recently, it seems, Brooklyn has realized that it is not very far away from Manhattan and the rents have gone up to match. In Chicago, I lived in a brand new building, downtown, and had an 820 square foot apartment for $1400 a month. In Brooklyn, I have about 500 square feet, no AC, no microwave, in a building built in 1883 for $2400 a month. And, I had to pay a broker two months rent for the privilege of renting their apartment. (Yes, Brooklyn Heights is a particularly expensive neighborhood and the commute time to Chelsea is less than from many places in Manhattan. But it's not a $1000 value-add from what I had in Chicago.)<p>Ultimately, I can afford this because Google pays me a lot of money and buys me three meals a day. But if you are bootstrapping a startup, you probably don't have this much money to burn, and there's really no compelling reason to live in NYC unless you spend all your time doing social things. If you're programming, buy yourself a more comfortable apartment in Kansas City, or something. $2400 a month buys you the entire city :)
Why don't more hackers consider Los Angeles? Cheaper and easier to find housing than the bay or NYC hands down, better weather, and plenty of single women who jump at the chance to date guys that aren't actors and/or yoga instructors!<p>Given, the tech scene in LA isn't great but it's not that far from SF and there are definitely some hackers around UCLA and the Westside.<p>I love New Yorkers but New York City is a zoo. You're constantly fighting the crowds, the street noise, and there is an extremely high cost of living. Some people thrive in this environment. I however find that my blood pressure rises to unacceptable levels.<p>In Los Angeles I know plenty of people with a yard and driveway living in nice walkable neighborhoods near the beach or in and around hollywood paying less than $1500-$1700/month.
Lots of good pros/cons of New York mentioned in these comments, so just one thing to add I haven't seen mentioned: after 7 years living & working in Manhattan/Brooklyn, my network is saturated with people in a dozen different industries who all seem to have careers advancing at 2x speed of the people I know anywhere else.<p>I consistently meet people in their late 20's and early 30's who are serious players in a wide variety of business and artistic endeavors. I don't have to go more than one degree of separation to find someone at the top of any field. I know less entrepreneurs here than in SV, but the cross-pollination in NYC is a big deal.
Having lived in both San Francisco and New York (and a dozen other places), I can attest that all the OP's points sound factually correct-dating is much easier for straight men, commutes are shorter, and there is a lot more diversity when it comes to careers.
I live in the New York City area. The benefits you state are true however if you are in fact contemplating a start up your access to engineers in the Silicon Valley area are going to be far greater than in the New York City area. That may be changing but sometimes groupthink can be positive thing. It can help nurture and further develop an industry. You mentioned the finance industry being in New York however realize that the finance industry developed in New York because of groupthink.
I think the elevator in my building is a perfect metaphor for New York city...bear with me...<p>When we were first shown the building, all I noticed was that the walls of the elevator were <i>covered</i> in graffiti! The very picture of urban blight.<p>A couple of months after we moved in, I took a moment to actually read the graffiti: "Bach!", "Ravel", "Beethoven sucks!", "Tchaikovsky 4 eva", and so on. Turns out, we live 2 blocks from the Manhattan school of music.
My previous team was split between Mountain View and New York. We'd travel back and forth. Don't get me wrong: I love the Bay Area. The weather for one thing is simply heaven.<p>We'd often get into debates about this. My argument is that it is cheaper to live in New York than the Bay Area. The main reason for this is that almost anywhere you live in the Bay Area you will have a car. Between car payment, insurance, gas and maintenance you will more than make up for any difference in rent.<p>Your only real option to living without a car is to live in SF. That means an hour commute <i>minimum</i> each way every day (on the bus). Sometimes it can double with traffic on the 101. You have to catch them when they're running (4-6 times in the morning and evening?). Or if you don't have a bus option it's Caltrain + bus. Caltrain runs every hour during the day (slightly more often in peak hours).<p>Even if your bus has wifi and you can allegedly do work I'd rather not waste 2-3 hours of my life on it each day.<p>Compare this to New York. Areas around the office (Chelsea, Meatpacking, West/Greenwich Village, Union Square) are expensive but I still have a second story (true) one bedroom walkup 7 minutes walk from work for $2000/month.<p>A friend lives in Crown Heights in Brooklyn. Door to door will typically take him ~35 minutes. His one bedroom is $1000/month. How far afield are you going to have to go in SV to find a one bedroom for that price (or, worse, that price including the car cost, even adjusting for spending $100/month on a monthly metro card).<p>And I'd much rather rely on the Subway (or the commuter trains for that matter) than anything in Norcal (although I found the combination of BART + buses fine in SF even though I knew many people who complained about them). It's like $2.25 to go anywhere in the city and it runs 24x7.<p>Rent in Manhattan is certainly expensive but you don't need to live in Manhattan. You can choose to (as I have) but you don't need to. You can get a pretty nice apartment in Forest Hills and have a relatively easy run in on the E train if you wish. Williamsburg is full of hipsters but is convenient (except when the L train stops running, which seems to happen all too often).<p>So rent aside, everything else is the same cost of cheaper. Food especially is cheaper. A Thai restaurant around the corner has $2-6 appetizer and <$10 entrees. A Malaysian place I like in Chinatown has ~$7 entrees. Why anyone cooks in this city is beyond me.<p>On the way to work there are 3-4 laundromats. The one I go to is open from 7am-11pm 7 days a week and as long as I get them my clothes before about 1-2pm will have them back the same day, washed, dried, folded and sealed for <$1/lb.<p>If you have a family you can stay in the city (expensive) or move to the commuter belt (as most people do). Long Island, upstate NY or NJ (or further afield at places like CT, PA) have good affordable options. If you're married and have kids you'll probably only need 1 car rather than 2 (since the trains will cover you during the week to go to work).<p>New York really is great. Although if I weren't working for Google I'm not sure who I'd want to work for. Foursquare? Maybe but you're essentially banking on them getting bought out (admittedly, this seems fairly likely). Tumblr? Maybe. Amazon? I think they're out of the city somewhere. Palantir? Maybe. SV certainly has got way more choice.
People have a huge capacity to adapt. For single people the flexibility is even more. I'd say, even if you go to Cicely, Alaska you'll get used to it and like it.<p>Now, if you would like to innovate, and be part of something big, your chances of realizing those are very slim if you live outside the big magnets. SV, New York, Boston are fine but the opportunities diminish very fast as the density of tech companies gets smaller. There are interesting exceptions though. For instance the Raleigh-Durham area has a good combination of schools (fresh talent), and tech companies. If you are at that point in your life that you need to choose where you will pick a home, think carefully, and do your research.
I love New York, and it definitely feels like the startup community is growing here. My only thought is that the startups in NYC may be a bit more "big payoff" driven than "creating value" driven. I honestly can't say for sure though because I haven't spent any amount of time in the Valley.<p>Being totally self-promotional here, but I just made a video about moving to New York for a startup. Please don't take it seriously.<p><a href="http://blog.kevinroseeffect.com/post/20127362923" rel="nofollow">http://blog.kevinroseeffect.com/post/20127362923</a>
You can argue that NYC is a better place to meet women than SF, but is it really because there's slightly more women than men in the general population? I think it's due to a variety of other factors:<p>Different mindset of people in NYC than in SF (compare NYC's finance and fashion industries to SF's technology industry)...<p>Better logistics in NYC than in SF (in NYC: 24/7 public transport, plenty of taxis, no car culture, and apartments nearby; in SF: BART isn't 24/7, taxis scarcer, many have their own vehicles, and people live farther)...<p>What else?
If the OP is at all interested in the industries he says he is, then NYC all the way. It is a better city than SF on virtually every metric except burritos and nightlife.<p>The reason I left NYC was that it didn't have a vibe for "technology for technology's sake." If you're a more low-level engineer (knee-deep in circuits and C) then NYC is <i>really</i> going to push against you; the opportunities are fewer and the culture surrounding you values that less than financial sales or 'hustling' (Adafruit being a counterexample). You'd have to specifically hang out around Columbia, drive upstate, or grab the Fung Wah to Boston to get that kind of vibe. In the Bay you're immersed in it.
One of the best places to live in New York is New Jersey. Large areas of Hoboken and Jersey City are just as easy for a Manhattan commute via the PATH subway or bus or even a ferry. Rent goes roughly 25% cheaper for similar digs, everything from basement studios to ultramodern luxury towers. Bonus: you don't pay NYC income tax, and NJ sales tax is less too.<p>I've lived in NJ and commuted to Manhattan for essentially my entire professional life, and quite satisfied with it. I currently commute by ferry which is insanely pleasant compared to a subway.
I haven't travelled as much as some, but I've travelled enough to learn that nowhere has the monopoly on the best way of life. Australia has great weather and a relaxed outdoors lifestyle, but few opportunities in technology, not much cultural life, and an over-reliance on cars. London has amazing energy and cultural institutions, but it is crowded and expensive. Then consider that things which are important now might not be important in ten years time.<p>There is no best place to live. There is just the best place to live for you right now.
Michael, it is very interesting that you chose New York and I wish you all the best. I say that it is interesting because I chose to move from New York to San Francisco at the end of last year. One of the main reasons is the attitude of each respective city.<p>New York will always have a special place in my heart as I grew up in lower part of brooklyn until I moved to Jersey in 7th grade. It was one of the greatest times of my life. I only returned to the city after I graduated college two years ago. Maybe it was a personal experience but after working in NYC(manhattan) I thought it was one of the coldest and most distant places I have ever experienced. It was the feeling of the city, for all the "if you can make it here you can make it anywhere" there is a lack of collaboration, it is selfish, it feels like people are only out for #1. There is this aura of being better than others, almost snobbishness, which is something I have yet to find in San Francisco.<p>San Fran is also incredible in terms of the level of intellectual curiosity that you see in most people. Individuals and groups are building,creating, innovating. I don't remember who said it(maybe it was Paul Graham in Hackers and Painters) but there was a comparison of modern day San Francisco to Florence during the Renaissance. I tried to look for resources in New York, but it felt like I was always meeting the same kind of people. I found that people were just living, going to restaurants, talking celebrity gossip. There was no ambition to better oneself, there was no ambition to learn. There is ambition to make money though.<p>Your point about groupthink is well noted. I would like to point out that artistically, culturally, and musically NYC and SF are not that different. SF is the city of free thinking and has spawned many radical movements (Summer of Love, Beatniks, LGBT social movement), and continues to be ripe with underground/subculture movements. I cannot say NYC doesn't have the Village, but it is a remnant of what it once was as it has undergone extensive gentrification.<p>Either way these I think are two of the more open cities in the United States and have an environment where one in theory can succeed. Personally I believe that San Fran simply has a different mindset which is embodied in the people.<p>You can be as successful as you want to be, just be wary of the environmental factors that may sway you into a lifestyle that makes you feel as if you are running in place
Try Vegas. You can get a luxury 1 bedroom high rise condo on the strip for $1,500/month. Off strip a great 1 bedroom is $800-900 and it comes with an attached garage. The entire Vegas valley is only about 20 miles in diameter so you are never far from anywhere. Commute times are short and off strip, traffic is not bad at all.<p>$65,000 in Vegas buys you the same quality of life as $100,000 in SF.
Don't forget the cost of living in NYC - a cost that will be significantly increased by your networking and socializing habits. I live and work in the city and love it and the employment opportunity is enormous here. Your LinkedIn account will explode if it hasn't already.
1h 30m commute is only if you insist on busing down to Apple or Google every day. There are plenty of companies you can work for in SF that you can reach in much less time.<p>And if you think it's going to be affordable to live five minutes walk from your office in NYC, think again.<p>(disclaimer: lived in both)
When I think of dating in New York as a straight male, my experience has been "the odds are good, but the goods are odd." I've lived there twice. If you are at the top of your game you can find whatever relationship you want anywhere.
Enjoy the taxes, costs and restrictions! Plus, the movie talkers and the stench of public transit!<p>I did the reverse (East coast -> Austin) and could not possibly be happier.
This article reads like a rationalization by a college student who is basing all of his knowledge of these places on second-hand accounts and stereotypes. Does this guy really think that San Francisco isn't diverse? Does he really not understand that he's going to be around engineers (the vast majority of whom are white dudes) all day anyway and that the diversity of the area has little to do with that? Does he really believe that all anyone talks about in SF is social media and daily deals?<p>How about come back in 6 months after you've moved and list the preconceived notions you had that were wrong, and the ones you had that were right and how you like living in NYC? Because this kind of reads like it's going to be this way because this is how I expect it to be.<p><i>Disclaimer: I'm moving to New York City in less than two weeks</i>
It seems like NYC just seems like a hub, because people are already there and don't want to move.<p>Very few people who decide to uproot to start their startup elsewhere actually choose NYC over SV.<p>Frankly, I don't see what the big deal is, lets face it, most programmers are more or less geeks, so all this talk about the better night life and clubs, dating/mingling opportunities etc probably doesn't even apply.<p>It's all about the person really.<p>Someone outgoing, will find all of those even in the middle of nowhere in Kansas. And someone with social anxiety will have problems no matter where they are.