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The Cruel Fantasies of Well-Fed People

152 pointsby tpushover 1 year ago

19 comments

jgrahamover 1 year ago
If you&#x27;re interested in this topic, I can recommend his book on the subject of food production: Regenesis — Feeding The World Without Devouring the Planet [1].<p>It tries to look at food production as a global system, the successes it&#x27;s had in terms of making food more affordable and avoiding global famine, but also the damage it&#x27;s causing to climate and biodiversity, and possible ways forward given the constraints of making food production sustainable without creating mass starvation.<p>I will also say that many groups of people don&#x27;t like the conclusions. Many farmers and meat eaters don&#x27;t like the idea that livestock farming at the scale needed to support modern western diets is fundamentally unsustainable. People who believe that eating free range meat means that they&#x27;ve made the clearly ethical choice may be surprised at how that works out over an entire population. Many non meat eaters are uncomfortable at the argument that just hoping people switch to vegan diets is unlikely to work in practice. Many environmentalists don&#x27;t like the conclusion that the best hopes for a way forward involve more technology, not less.<p>I&#x27;m not sure he ends up betting on the right horses, but it seems to me that the substance of the book is well thought through, and hard to disagree with without falling into the &quot;let them eat cake&quot; trap that&#x27;s called out in this essay.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.penguin.co.uk&#x2F;books&#x2F;317018&#x2F;regenesis-by-monbiot-george&#x2F;9780141992990" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.penguin.co.uk&#x2F;books&#x2F;317018&#x2F;regenesis-by-monbiot-...</a>
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teknopaulover 1 year ago
Starts out so wrong. I live in Spain, traditionally good food still a staple. Most of the world I have visited is like that too.<p>OK USA has screwed it&#x27;s food chain, but that does not apply outside. People generally value traditions, and specifically food traditions, highly. It&#x27;s a long way from financially difficult to keep these alive. People just have to decide they want to and spend time, not money. People round here do that.<p>N.B. Traditional food does not come from a shop, you make it yourself. Thus, it cannot be gentrified away. Growing your own local specialities is usually easy where it is traditional.<p>If you can&#x27;t imagine obtaining anything without going to the free market and haggling, your limited options are your own doing. That&#x27;s not gentrification.
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goda90over 1 year ago
This debate just feels like a useless distraction from what the people on the ground of sustainable farming are saying. We should be talking about how we can get high yield without destroying the ecosystem.
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photochemsynover 1 year ago
The main thesis of the article is that famine due to crop failure (as opposed to famine due to war) has largely been eliminated by two modern technologies: industrial agricultural methods (synthetic fertilizer, pesticides, herbicides, equipment) and global trade (air and ship transport managed by markets).<p>This generally appears true - some time ago I tried to discover if total land area under agricultural production had increased since before the Norman Borlaug era and the answer seems to be no - as the author notes, per-acre productivity improvement accounts for the increase in food production.<p>The opposing argument is that this approach is not sustainable in the long run due to soil degradation and agricultural pollution of waterways, high energy costs of the industrial approach, dependence on fossil fuels (and threats of flood and drought related to global warming), and that eventually the system will crash leading to a new round of famines.<p>For the techno-optimists (e.g. myself) there is a way out - flip the industrial agriculture system off fossil fuels and onto renewable energy, i.e. electric equipment powered by sunlight and wind, and optimize use of inputs (fertilizer etc.) via adoption of machine learning and robotics (i.e each growing plant gets individual attention with this model). Of course this only works if we also stabilize the global human population and eliminate fossil fuels from the energy mix to avoid increasing drought&#x2F;flood risk. Moving to a diet of no more than 5% or so animal products also makes sense as that means more primary production (direct photosynthesis) goes to humans instead of livestock, thereby reducing the pressure on agricultural land.<p>As Monbiot implies, anyone claiming a return to pre-industrial subsistence agriculture is a good idea is either a shameless marketer or a lunatic who has never tried to grow their own food.
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TacticalCoderover 1 year ago
Great TFA but I partially disagree with this:<p>&gt; A healthy, nutritious diet is much more expensive than a calorie sufficient one. As a result, three billion people cannot afford a healthy diet.<p>Is that so? My wife is the kind to obsess on healthy eating and always tells me it&#x27;s <i>cheaper</i> to cook healthy than to cook unhealthy stuff. She&#x27;s the kind that forces me to eat soup as dinner and that&#x27;s it. It&#x27;s not expensive to buy a few vegetables and to make soup.<p>(we buy, weekly, stuff from a local farmer btw and it&#x27;s not exensive at all and he&#x27;s happy to see people not buying <i>everything</i> from the supermarket)<p>Eggs aren&#x27;t expensive: I find eggs super yummy.<p>Lentils, canned tuna (I love that: I just love that, not too sure if it&#x27;s healthy or not but it&#x27;s cheap), advocados (ok, they may be a bit pricey), corn, there are fishes that are cheap...<p>It&#x27;s <i>easy</i> to go to a drive-in and buy junk. But they&#x27;re not handing that junk for free at drive-ins. People who buy that could buy vegetables instead. Sure, there may not be same amount of calories and fat and whatnots but seen the average overweight person, I&#x27;d argue that that&#x27;s... A good thing?<p>I mean, put it this way: it may be expensive to buy healthy food and yet end up as fat and unhealthy as when buying ultra high fat, ultra high calories, junk food... But maybe, just maybe, you don&#x27;t need to be that fat and unhealthy?<p>My eight years old kid has been conditioned by my wife to only health healthy stuff: she sees a Mc Donald sign and pretends to throw up.<p>I understand that people can&#x27;t be bothered to buy healthy stuff and don&#x27;t have the will to eat reasonable amount of food and can&#x27;t be bothered to make soup but I don&#x27;t buy the whole &quot;fat people are fat because they&#x27;re poor&quot;.<p>They&#x27;re fat and unhealthy because they are eating junk.<p>There&#x27;s a spectrum between &quot;Supersize me&quot; and &quot;three-star restaurant selling $$$ sushis&quot;.
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Animatsover 1 year ago
It&#x27;s basically a rant against some writer who wrote &quot;Saying No to a Farm-Free Future&quot;, which apparently calls for &quot;re-peasantization&quot;. If you like that sort of thing, go back to Thoreau&#x27;s &quot;Walden&quot;. It helps to know that Thoreau, with his little shack, had friends with houses nearby, often ate and stayed there, and had an income from a publisher in New York.
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beebeepkaover 1 year ago
What a nice blog. I don&#x27;t think I have ever said this before. I read several articles and agree with the thought process of this person.<p>This one touched me <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.monbiot.com&#x2F;2023&#x2F;10&#x2F;24&#x2F;necroculture&#x2F;" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.monbiot.com&#x2F;2023&#x2F;10&#x2F;24&#x2F;necroculture&#x2F;</a>
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pfdietzover 1 year ago
Monbiot is awesome. Even if I don&#x27;t agree with everything he has said, his insistence on rigor and willingness to call bullshit is just indispensable.<p>One could almost see the blood dripping off his rhetorical knives here.
progneover 1 year ago
&quot;In fact, and horrifyingly, it’s likely that, as a result of environmental disaster, rural life in many parts of the world will collapse before urban life does, as suggested by a highly disturbing recent paper in Nature, showing how and where the “human climate niche” is likely to shrink. If anything, we are likely to become more reliant on long-distance transport to deliver our food – a prospect no one, myself included, relishes.&quot;<p>Having moved from an urban to a rural area, I disagree. There is far more food produced per person in rural areas. Although I&#x27;m in high desert, there&#x27;s probably a surplus of calories created here even with non-producers like me included. We are relatively protected from starvation in a disaster because of this and the often very very short transportation lines from yard to table. Someone that already has a rabbit hutch or chicken coop or vegetable garden can scale up quickly. And out here you can live off of small game if you can shoot or trap, as the natives did for thousands of years.<p>But we&#x27;re highly dependent on gasoline. I&#x27;d have a 22 mile round trip walk to a mini-mart without it. It would take a serious amount of cooperation and adaptation to maintain here without it. I&#x27;m not sure if it&#x27;s sustainable for someone like me.<p>In the event of disaster I would rather be surrounded by a lower density of desperate, starving people.
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AlbertCoryover 1 year ago
The headline is misleading, but the sudden trendiness of a previously-unknown food is pretty devastating to everyone but the few who manage to cash in on the trend.<p>Witness: Korean food. I love it as much as anyone and have a container of gochujang in the fridge, but I read once about some poor Korean who, when told that Westerners were suddenly very interested in their culture, just said, &quot;Why?&quot;
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javajoshover 1 year ago
The solution is obvious, though: wealthy individuals, or collectives of such, should pay folks to live an authentic, poor, impoverished life, protect it as an island of authenticity, for some set period of time, and that person is forbidden from accessing their new wealth personally for X amount of time.<p>I&#x27;m not joking. This deal would appeal to many people who both want a hands-on life but who also want to retire to someplace other than an authentic, brutal poorhouse. In return, society gets to (synthetically) maintain a different way of life, which may come in handy when things change, when climate, asteroids, or revolts make &quot;the old ways&quot; more valuable again. And in the meantime, it would maintain a secret, private getaway for the ultra wealthy to enjoy very occasionally and discretely.
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eh_why_notover 1 year ago
Off topic: maybe used to reading technical papers too much, but this is an overly long article for a pass-by read, and it has no paragraph summarizing the author&#x27;s main thesis.<p>What are some good online services that can take a URL and give back a few bullet points? (which would then help decide whether to spend 20 - 30 mins to read the arguments)
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oldbbsnicknameover 1 year ago
Commercial, profit-optimizing meat and dairy ag inexorably lead to GMO corn megafarms, CAFOs, and overuse of antibotics bringing the risks of antibiotic resistance, pandemics, climate change, and pollution of air, water, and soil.<p>What is missing is regulators mandating genuine sustainable practices and taxing and fining where appropriate. The absurd cruelty of CAFOs and using the atmosphere as an open-air sewer for methane and CO₂ must end.
georgeoliverover 1 year ago
I don&#x27;t know how the numbers would play out, but maybe higher average food prices would reduce global poverty if in general the global poor&#x27;s income derives from food production?
smitty1eover 1 year ago
&gt; The argument in which he participates is a crucial one, the divisions are real and the debate needs to be had.<p>Sorry, sir. We are in a reductionist moment in history, where sides have been chosen; judgements made; debate stifled; views anathematized; and conflict reduced to an inevitable choice that is the fault of &quot;other&quot;.
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MichaelRoover 1 year ago
I resonate with the article for several reasons:<p>- I lived in rural Romania through the 80s when Ceaușescu decided to basically return to war time rationalization of food.<p>- My father was an agricultural engineer on a state farm, a specialty almost forgotten today yet of utmost importance in the 50s-60s when he graduated university and got the job.<p>People today scorn at the idea of state farms but my father comes from a family of rather wealthy peasants from before collectivization and always told me that productivity was shit before modern cultivation methods, mechanization, chemical fertilizers, pesticides and herbicides were used. He died this year at 82 years of age of Parkinson&#x27;s disease, almost surely caught due to his involvement with agricultural herbicides. His 90 years old brother that worked as a physics teacher is alive and kicking. Takes the bus from the village everyday to the city to have a coffee with his friends.<p>Anyhow, I digress. Let&#x27;s get back to the original article.<p>&gt;&gt; Much of the protein, insufficient as it was, came not from cheese and meat but from what we now call dhal. It had names (to give some English examples) like pease pottage, pease pudding, mushy peas and pea soup<p>The Romanian countryside was far better off in the rationalization period than the cities. I&#x27;ve visited my city-living aunt a few times and noticed the terrible queues to procure basically anything: bread, butter, meat. I don&#x27;t recall much of my meals as a 10 years old (I was 12 when Ceaușescu was shot and shortages ended) and with my parents might have been a bit atypical. As my father being chief engineer of the state farm we never lacked anything, of course :)<p>But when living with my grandparents, I think my diet was a lot more what regular people ate. There was no lack of protein but it wasn&#x27;t the obscene frenzy I see in American movies (probably fake?): all beef chops meat and basically no bread or carbs or vegetables at all.<p>I ate a serious amount of carbs from wheat bread and corn bread, lots of milk and derivatives, eggs, vegetables in salads and soups. Btw, a salad here is a mixture of vegetables that you eat with your main dish. It&#x27;s never the main dish, another habit of well fed people. Chicken was a rare treat, my grandma would sacrifice growing chickens but almost never a fully grown hen that would lay eggs. And how much can you split a chicken between 2 adults and 2 kids (my and my cousin)? It was always stew, I never ever saw fried chicken EVER during those times. Almost all meat came from pork. Occasionally beef but the penalty for having beef in communist Romania was straight prison. Peasants were supposed to hand over the calves to the state, but sometimes they were born &quot;dead&quot; (i.e. kept in the stables and fed a bit until slaughtered). Btw, it&#x27;s those times when I developed a less than today&#x27;s modern sensible view towards animals as opposed to humans. First time slaughtering a calf or bagging a litter of puppies into a sack before drowning them is the hardest. You get used to it and learn this is life if we&#x27;re about to live.<p>Darn, I digress again. Must be the 3rd glass of wine :P
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acestus5over 1 year ago
This author complains too much. People want to eat cheese in France because it beats eating Doritos in a tiny apartment.
simbolitover 1 year ago
&quot;falling hunger during a time of rising population&quot;<p>I find it astonishing that Monbiot manages to mention China&#x27;s famines in the 1950s and 1960s, but somehow fails to mention that most of the progress in the fight against hunger since the 1970s was made here: If you exclude China from the numbers, &quot;falling hunger during a time of rising population&quot; didn&#x27;t really happen.<p>Old story: China bad.
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jokoonover 1 year ago
I haven&#x27;t read the article, but I tend to believe that people in rich developed countries always lived in an insulting abundance, and they don&#x27;t seem to understand the cost of supplying how they eat, and what it requires: they don&#x27;t see the distant infrastructure required to feed them, while they are raining in what I see as luxury food.<p>The climate dictates that we need to prioritize food that can provide nutrition that is medically adequate, not just food that makes them happy.<p>Once you do that, things can drastically change, and you will see a lot of people feeling unhappy because they don&#x27;t have the food they like. I bet people could riot because they can&#x27;t get beef chicken or fries.<p>I&#x27;m also puzzled by people who pretend they can reach food autonomy by living in a community or something. That makes me chuckle. Growing a few vegetable in a few acre won&#x27;t feed you, and it will certainly not reach a correct amount of calories.